Vagrant's journal, Building as OP crew as possible Options

[pekkae]

Demo-fite

It's insanely difficult. But probably the best fight in the game. We sort of breezed through the encounters for quite some time, not this fight though.

Everything has to go right to clear this. We don't have an uber sorceress with us, so no full-RvE and our wish-capabilities are quite limited. We should have 4 scrolls of wish left or so. We use two level 9 spells from Neera in the beginning so we have 8 level 9 spells left together with the afore mentioned 4 scrolls of Wish. Nalia has a few more but she doesn't have the most useful spells ofc.

We summon all of Vagrant's Swanmays. Then we summon a couple of Greater Yuan-Ti's & The Clan Spirit. PFME's for Swanmay queen, Clan Spirit. Prebuffs for our crew including PfF's, Resist Fire & Cold's, PFME's (Valygar + Imoen) ,IH's, Minor Globe for Jaheira with Holy Power, Mages take death ward's, SI:Abjurations + GOI + ST's and PFMW for Neera. Potions of Defence for Imoen + Valygar. Protection from level drain for Vagrant. Vagrant has shield of harmony + peridan + 2xbarbarian essence (so with hardiness he's at 90% phys resistance when the fite starts). We RvE regen and then take Mental Agility for Neera.

Start. Swanmays + CS go for Kargoth, Yuan Ti's go for Kazuul. Vagrant takes Demo & moves so he gets Rozvankee as well. Imoen + Valygar go stand near Nulonga.

Jaheira moves to the side + summons greater djinn and then the smilodon. Neera & Nalia both IA. Neera 3xRRoR + 2-3xBreach Nulonga, who is then immediately dismantled by Imoen + Valygar under CS (that's 20 APR's with natural 20 rolls). Nalia casts Llarloch's minor drain on herself to launch CC of 3xRRoR on St. Kargoth, then follows with ST 2xLR + Breach, after that St Kargoth is under aggro from Swanmay queen, CS + greater Swanmay (1 greater Swanmay died already). Nalia then follows LR on St Kargoth + flame/acid arrows to finish St Kargoth together with Summons. ADHW trigger is launched. Swanmay queen & CS Survive. Neera 3xRRoR Belcheresh, then breach, then ST 3xLR on Belcheresk. Then we launch full on arcane assault on Belcheresk in all of our 1st level spells we have (CO's) + minor sequencers + spell sequencers with AA's and all AA's we can spare. The still surviving summons that dealt with Kargoth go for Belcheresk (which is still on Vagrant). Imoen + Valygar re-activate CS's and go for Kazuul. Belcheresk is near death so Vagrant switches to an axe & gives it a whack. Belcheresk dies. Neera breaches Kazuul (must be 3-4 breaches), Imoen & Valygar under CS whack it into oblivion. Greater djinn survives, so does Swanmay Queen & CS.

So the most difficult part is done. Then the real battle begins.

Rozvankee and Demo remaining.

But we come in prepared.

Vagrant tanks demo (+ Rozvankee about 50% of the time). Imoen (with JD) & Valygar (with Hammer of Thor) blow through Vargouille-waves. Jaheira helps whenever she's able to. It takes 1-2 CS's per wave. We have 20 (though we used 4 for Nulonga + Kazuul). We drop waves of abyssal escorts with 1-2 remove magic's + breaches. Nalia helps here immensely. To keep up fire resistances we use PfF's (from scrolls & Jaheira), Resist Fire & Cold's (Jaheira), Protection from elements (from Nalia) and Protection from energy (from scrolls mostly). We try to keep a few swords around, for they are very good against Vargouilles.

Half way through we Wish:Rest. We use all of our remaining 9th level spells + two scrolls. In the end Nalia gets whacked. We raise her immediately. Neera gets her superpowers.

If I ever succumb to insane, I have a plan for this fight.

( It won't probably work, as usual, but.... )

This post has been edited by pekkae: Apr 8 2022, 04:37 PM

[pekkae]

Rune Assassins (Windspear Hills)
Grandfather of Assassins
Improved Theshal
City Gates Lich
Viper Queen
Orcus

^ All completely trivial. We blow through these on the back of our extraordinary H2H capabilities without strategies - the only minor inconvenience is the Orcus fight where Orcus has a number of silences to which we are uniquely vulnerable.

**

Then all that is for us to do is to clear Ancient Secret of Suldanesselar and Irenicus. Then we'll call it quits for this crew most likely.

This post has been edited by pekkae: Apr 9 2022, 04:03 PM

[pekkae]

A Note.

It wasn't the most powerful party available, as our initial approach was botched and it did screw up our composition as well as the underlying assumptions on how this would play out. Small pebbles ended up making big waves.

Then again, playing with 2 characters that can skin up through chapters 4-5 while tanking with a Vagrant (a wretched choice for a tank) was very, VERY educational. And also having sole Sorceress as an arcane caster.

If we get rid of our self-inflicted hindrances and get back to the drawing board to optimize the party composition a little bit more, I think we can rock this throughout.

This post has been edited by pekkae: Apr 9 2022, 04:40 PM

[kilorew]

If you are continuing with IA, what will be the next challenge?

[pekkae]

If you are continuing with IA, what will be the next challenge?

Will make a party that is more powerful .

And I'll most likely up the difficulty.

I have a plan.

( Well, everyone has a plan until you get punched in the face )

This post has been edited by pekkae: Apr 9 2022, 04:22 PM

[bulian]

Congratulations on beating demogorgon so early! Definitely an accomplishment!

[pekkae]

Congratulations on beating demogorgon so early! Definitely an accomplishment!

Thanks! It took 25 tries or so. So definitely not 100%.

[pekkae]

Some thoughts on the crew.

H2H capabilities

If you have been following this journal you might remember that our approach with prioritizing H2H over healing capabilities, as in giving the last slot of our crew to a Kensai instead of a dualled Ranger / Cleric or a multiclass fighter cleric, a choice we weren't sure about but which payed big dividends. It is possible to just breeze through most of the encounters with this crew by the virtue of "unending pool of Critical Strikes". It's a little bit game/mod-breaking to have 4 characters who can critical strike. When our crew is composed as such, our deficiencies in spellcasting (or durabilitiy) do not matter that much, sometimes at all. For example the JD fight become pretty trivial, as we are used to having difficulties with it. For the most part Vagrant didn't get any CS's though, as he was just focused on getting hardiness's. Currently he has 1 critical strike, so for the most part we played through with 3 characters who can CS.


Healing

We didn't need healing that much, which is nice giving that we have limited RvE and no Cernd. Our assumption was that for the most part Kensai with JD doesn't really need healing that much, for JD will keep her safe. Riskbreaker and especially the Valygar-version, has both innate healing capabilities as well as a Corthala Family True Blade which heals, limiting the need for healing. Vagrant has contact with nature + amazing resistances throughout incl. elemental resistances and physical resistances, but will need a regen every now and then or use potions. The rest in Jaheira, Nalia & Neera are almost immediately toast if they are not protected and get targetted, thus very limited need for healing in pretty much all of the fights. This is assuming we get to the level where we get all of the up-above mentioned powers.


Kensai vs. Riskbreaker

They are currently sitting quite even in "exp value" - department (both near 30%), with Kensai having a slight edge and a bigger edge in "kills" department. It evened out after Kensai got JD, thus giving her dual-wielding ability, as we thought. This suggests that Kensai is more deadly, as RB was in the lead but Kensai now has first come even and then gone past the RB. The RB has been with Corthala Family True Blade / Hammer of Thor while both usually rock a scimitar in off-hand, so they are about even weapons wise, attacks wise and strength wise. I personally prefer the Kensai for it can use staves in the early chapters and then become a dual wielding monster later in the game. There's also no need for hardiness's with a Kensai as pre-JD Kensai will always be toast if it gets targetted. In that sense I don't think there's a big difference in playinga Kensai on core vs. playing a Kensai on insane. I'm not sure how a Riskbreaker plays out in tougher levels especially in the early chapters as it can't use reach and attack behind a skinned character. Kensai's MPV is SPider queen, Riskbreakers Green Wyrm.


Jaheira vs. Cernd

They are non-comparable, completely opposite characters. Jaheira is a terrible healer and a terrible priest, with quite the limited spellcasting capabilities besides very useful prebuffing. To offset this she is an insanely good fighter, especially in the early chapters, getting to 6 APR with a staff (8 APR if you dual wield, 10 if you use Belm/WE in off-hand) in the early game. And ofc you can tank with her because she's got skins. And if that's not enough then she gets to summon the clan spirit, which is really-really good throughout the game, even quite useful in the Demogorgon fight. And to top it off, she can effectively use the Golem Slayer, an uber useful weapon in so-so-so many fights. The only fight where we needed to babysit her all the time was in the demofight, as Vargouilles get her immediately into a lot of trouble.

Cernd on the other hand is terrible in H2H, but an amazing spellcaster and an amazing healer who gets his superpowers quite early and then can wreak havoc especially in chapters 4-5, where he's completely OP. Cernd can prebuff (and de-buff in some fights with dispel magic) effectively but will be confined to summon / buffing in a few tough matches where the extra power in H2H is very, very welcome (say Demogorgon / JD - fights).


Vagrant

Vagrant is able to get the best phys resistance in the game through Items and the ability to cast Armor of Faith. Swanmays can get play a major role in a number of fights and then there's of course the elemental resistances + ability to get 5* in axes. All in all, it makes a fully developed Vagrant a force to be reckoned with, once you get there. But the thing is, Vagrant gets its superpowers very late in the game. Actually so, so late, that they are only useful in a few tough battles in SoA parts of the game, most notably Ancient Dragon and/or Orcus - fights, depending on a little bit ofc if you choose to do them and of you do, when. And compared to another type tank, say a DD, the difference isn't even that big. If you are using a Vagrant as your main tank, you'll get a little very, very late to offset that fact that you probably had a terrible tie throughout most of the game. It's probably better the use the Vagrant as a damage dealer & summoner, instead of a tank.

This post has been edited by pekkae: Apr 10 2022, 10:48 AM

[bulian]

Nice analysis of the various classes. For what it’s worth, my personal favorite OP party is the following:

PC necromancer
2x riskbreaker
Vagrant
2x Avenger

OR

PC necromancer
2x riskbreaker
Vagrant
Avenger
Ranger/Cleric multiclass

Both parties have enough improved haste capabilities, arcane debuffing, RVE regen, and summons. Additionally, each party has 5x characters who can CS. A kensai could be swapped in for a RB, but the 3x improved haste per day that the RB has is a huge boost to overall party effectiveness.

[pekkae]

Nice analysis of the various classes. For what it’s worth, my personal favorite OP party is the following:

PC necromancer
2x riskbreaker
Vagrant
2x Avenger

OR

PC necromancer
2x riskbreaker
Vagrant
Avenger
Ranger/Cleric multiclass

Both parties have enough improved haste capabilities, arcane debuffing, RVE regen, and summons. Additionally, each party has 5x characters who can CS. A kensai could be swapped in for a RB, but the 3x improved haste per day that the RB has is a huge boost to overall party effectiveness.

Looks quite powerful, but ofc. lacks diversity. Then again, who needs diversity if one can just OP everything in the mod.

I guess with that setup tanking will be mostly done by Avenger(s) (/ R/C) and you are probably using the R/C version that can get druidic spells all the way?

How does that group match up against Demogorgon and is there a difference between "the most OP party" in your opinion if you increase the difficulty to insane?

[bulian]

I've never played on insane, but in both parties you have 5x skinned characters (PC, 2x avengers, and 2x clan hunters). Late game both RBs (65% physical resist via CBS and hardiness) and vagrants (75% physical resist via hardiness/armor of faith/red coral armor/FoDW) become very tanky. Subbing a R/C multi for the avenger gives a bit more healing (greater restoration) and CS eventually at the cost of smilodon and clan hunter abilities, which in my opinion is a poor tradeoff.

Both parties would do well on insane so long as you pay close attention to positioning.

By the way I had done a run with vagrant(PC)/RB/RB/sorcerer/avenger/R(7)->C a while back and completed the game in 45 rests (http://forums.blackwyrmlair.net/index.php?showtopic=5348).

This post has been edited by bulian: Apr 10 2022, 08:50 PM

[pekkae]

I've never played on insane, but in both parties you have 5x skinned characters (PC, 2x avengers, and 2x clan hunters). Late game both RBs (65% physical resist via CBS and hardiness) and vagrants (75% physical resist via hardiness/armor of faith/red coral armor/FoDW) become very tanky. Subbing a R/C multi for the avenger gives a bit more healing (greater restoration) and CS eventually at the cost of smilodon and clan hunter abilities, which in my opinion is a poor tradeoff.

Both parties would do well on insane so long as you pay close attention to positioning.

By the way I had done a run with vagrant(PC)/RB/RB/sorcerer/avenger/R(7)->C a while back and completed the game in 45 rests (http://forums.blackwyrmlair.net/index.php?showtopic=5348).

I had a look, very nice journal! Thanks!

I've tried positioning a little bit but I never understood how not to get hit with a dual wielder, in my games they always get hit. So I either resort to great phys. resistance or skinned characters.

I'm not sure if CBS + hardiness is enough to support a RB on insane. Especially because CBS doesn't last for long, while the fights might take ages.

[kilorew]

I look forward to the next iteration of the OP party, I do think from start to finish Avenger > Auramaster.

Never thought of 2x Avenger's though, I do like the sound of 2x Clan Hunters. How do they hold up in the later tougher fights? I assume at least one has water's edge 10apr

[pekkae]

I look forward to the next iteration of the OP party, I do think from start to finish Avenger > Auramaster.

Never thought of 2x Avenger's though, I do like the sound of 2x Clan Hunters. How do they hold up in the later tougher fights? I assume at least one has water's edge 10apr

I don't think they are that comparable, it's completely dependant on the overall party composition. But Avenger is very, very powerful. The biggest problem with her as fighter/healer is that you'll count on her to do the fighting quite much. And it's a bad tradeoff in the few fight where you really, really need healing as she isn't that good in healing. So essentially you have your best offensive weapon doing healing, which she isn't very good at.

[HTRT]

Personally, the party I find to be the strongest is :

Necro
Ranger/Cleric multiclass
Fighter/Mage multiclass (neutral elven)
Vagrant
Kensai (dwarf)
Neera

Nice runs by the way cool to read from you and the several other ppl that post once in a while

[pekkae]

I was pondering this yesterday and came to a similar'ish conclusion. This also depends little bit on the difficulty level, where at higher levels you need to rely more on skins instead of hardiness+regen. And ofc. it depends a little bit on if one has forging restrictions in place or not.

Even with forging restrictions in place, this is the team that can blow through the game even on Insane.

Necro
Neera
F/M multiclass (I prefer the gnomish version for the bonus spells, even though it's missing elven ancient expertise)
Jaheira (alternatively the OP R/C combo, though the R/C can't use golem slayer which I find essential)
Kensai (or Riskbreaker)
Vagrant (Shoud be ok with green leaves armour + Defender of Easthave + AoF + Hardiness)

Thanks. I quite enjoy the writing bit & it helps my thinking.

This post has been edited by pekkae: May 18 2022, 06:42 AM