trying insane no(or minimum) reload, is it that difficult? Options

[blastermaster]

Just digging through ancient ideas about loot, mainly about enemies that spawn other creature (elemental golems,....)
How difficult would it be to make a loot on creature, an elemental for example, according to the rule "the faster the kill the bigger the loot"
For example an elemental; if killed without having time to spawn any golem would bring 10 Kgp, after one spawn 8Kgp,...and no reward for lesser golems

This is a great idea. I don't think it's that time consuming either, though it would be annoying because IA uses a bunch of "Elemental Golems", like probably 8 or so, that you'd have to paste the script code into each of their scripts. And of course the reason there 8 of them is because some don't give loot (the one that spawns from Wish Rest, I'd bet), some have other distinct scripting, etc. That's the only tough part. But for unique monsters like the dragons, I think this would be an easy addition that you could paste right in and would be a nice addition to the mod.

[critto]

I am generally against forcing players to play faster for the sake of better loot. It's generally stressful when such a pace is kept through-out the whole game. One or two encounters are ok. And, with enemies like dragons it is not as straight-forward as it might seem. A necromancer-led party can obliterate a dragon in seconds, whereas any other protagonist is up for a long confrontation. Where's the balance in speed of killing?

[lambada]

A necromancer-led party can obliterate a dragon in seconds, whereas any other protagonist is up for a long confrontation.

This is bad design.

[bulian]

I am generally against forcing players to play faster for the sake of better loot.

I agree with this statement. Some of the most fun fights are when you are stretched to the limit and win just before collapsing completely. This can be accomplished by trying fights earlier than "intended," whatever that means. Samia in Ch 3 comes to mind.

I think some of the other comments are because several enemies actually reward a player for completing fights slower, which is probably not ideal either. I'll also state that this can make a fight more difficult as well so there is some merit in continued rewards. For example to "drain" an elemental golem requires surviving its blows for many additional rounds in addition to managing the coin/gem golems. In Ch 5 this can be tough (e.g. Illithid lair); by early TOB this is trivial.

My proposed solution in a thread which is buried somewhere was to increase the gold/XP of the main summoners and eliminate rewards from spawned creatures. So for elemental golems, increasing base XP from 60k to 60+22+24 = 106k XP and giving it 1k gold and 1 of each gem, where I think 22 and 24k XP are what a coin and gem golem are worth.

Why? It is designed to be a high-end and expensive ingredient.

Its got super rare ingredients. Not possible to forge until after Ancient Dragon, I believe. Was more of a tongue-in-cheek comment than anything.

Your approach is simple and straight-forward, yes. The amount of manual labor, however, is torturous. I've had to create 24 different copies of creatures for the new Avenger ability in 6.2 and it took me more than a week to accomplish, because it soaks up a lot of free time (and I don't have a lot of it). Do not underestimate how dull and monotonous it is smile.gif Another downside of this approach is that it is static and therefore predictable. My solution is more flexible: it introduces a random component that improves replayability factor and it also, with proper implementation, will take into an account all the possible future changes. Otherwise you have to keep the gold balance in mind each time you add something new to the mod. This is a point of failure due to a human factor and is bound to fail in the future. It is impossible to keep all such situations in one's mind constantly, that is why complex, constantly evolving systems are peppered with ineffective solutions and workarounds. IA is already a complex mod and, due to limitations of the scripting language and file formats, already has a lot of unnecessary complexity (lots of copy-pasted logic in AI, because it isn't possible to re-use code effectively and so on). I wouldn't hurry to introduce even more.

If there is ever a point where this is considered being implementing, by me or by others, I'd be happy to talk details in more earnest. I have a penchant for dull and monotonous activities, like looting 50x chain mail

I think in general gold rewards in the game right now are very predictable. Yes there is some variability based on whether monster X drops a lvl 7 spell scroll or a garnet, but that probably averages out over the course of the game. Maybe I'm missing something?

[critto]

I think in general gold rewards in the game right now are very predictable. Yes there is some variability based on whether monster X drops a lvl 7 spell scroll or a garnet, but that probably averages out over the course of the game. Maybe I'm missing something?

No, generally, it is as you say. I try to bring some more variability to the randomizer behavior, introducing more places and items, but there's a finite level of randomness due to certain design decisions and, in the end, player still can have a complete list of what can be found where.

[lroumen]

Avenger...!!!

[blastermaster]

I think some of the other comments are because several enemies actually reward a player for completing fights slower, which is probably not ideal either. I'll also state that this can make a fight more difficult as well so there is some merit in continued rewards. For example to "drain" an elemental golem requires surviving its blows for many additional rounds in addition to managing the coin/gem golems. In Ch 5 this can be tough (e.g. Illithid lair); by early TOB this is trivial.

My proposed solution in a thread which is buried somewhere was to increase the gold/XP of the main summoners and eliminate rewards from spawned creatures. So for elemental golems, increasing base XP from 60k to 60+22+24 = 106k XP and giving it 1k gold and 1 of each gem, where I think 22 and 24k XP are what a coin and gem golem are worth.

Given critto's concerns with more fast-paced monster killing, I think this is a great suggestion. Drawing out Elemental Golem fights can be fun and exciting, but can also be a drag (either way too easy, or very hard but I reload because I only drew 5 spawns instead of 6 and want to get the most gold and experience possible).

[nicoper]

Updated firs post (tag july 11th update)

Sendai and EDE left, hard nuts to crack!

[nicoper]

Run is finished (last update tag in first post)

SendaÏ and EDE did not cause another reload.
Put my 2 cents on "insane no-reload" end of post, will now resume designing original party for core vanilla BG2 IA, with a lot of reloads!

This attempt was fun nonetheless, retrying this does not appeal to me

Enjoy

[nicoper]

Run is finished (last update tag in first post)

SendaÏ and EDE did not cause another reload.
Put my 2 cents on "insane no-reload" end of post, will now resume designing original party for core vanilla BG2 IA, with a lot of reloads!

This attempt was fun nonetheless, retrying this does not appeal to me

Enjoy

[chaser]

Supreme golem is terminated (Pasha, Necro, RBs, Barb, R->C) without gating an elemental! (this Never happened to me before in IA)

Interesting,IIRC the Supreme Golem gated elemental golem in the second round(or the third),my 6 warriors party used 2.6 round to kill him,but the elemental golem still gated,so it is very rare to see this.

Your final victory is overwhelming~Congratulations！An epic run!

[nicoper]

Supreme golem is terminated (Pasha, Necro, RBs, Barb, R->C) without gating an elemental! (this Never happened to me before in IA)

Interesting,IIRC the Supreme Golem gated elemental golem in the second round(or the third),my 6 warriors party used 2.6 round to kill him,but the elemental golem still gated,so it is very rare to see this.

Truth is I was very surprised myself, fight lasted some 3 rounds (3 critical strikes), it never happened to me before not to have at least one elemental gated with supreme (which is not the biggest threat here)

Your final victory is overwhelming~Congratulations！An epic run!

Thanks

[bulian]

Well played and congratulations! I guess with so many BE potions the physical damage of the golems gets a little underwhelming. Still it seems you killed the prince exceedingly fast if he was still spawning noble/lesser rakasha during the fight! Its been quite some time since I've tried to do that fight but I seem to remember killing all of the summons before the prince. Critto don't read this: ( Let's just be glad that the prince doesn't spawn a wave of demon knights anytime, eh? Particularly right after a universal purge Or purge + ghost spiders + web golem + demon knights, or ice golem + any of a number of other summons, lol)

What was the hardest fight?

Party composition if you were to do it again?

[nicoper]

Well played and congratulations! I guess with so many BE potions the physical damage of the golems gets a little underwhelming.

Thanks, BE AND protection from elements: PFE + items/spells to have one or more elemental resistance above 100% beginning of fight with supreme is also tremendously important (physical only is not enough for insane supreme) and regeneration (oils, RVE, ...)

Still it seems you killed the prince exceedingly fast if he was still spawning noble/lesser rakasha during the fight! Its been quite some time since I've tried to do that fight but I seem to remember killing all of the summons before the prince.

Party had a great damage output, so not surprising that for earlier AI (triggering on lightly wounded or wounded IIRC) it went fast
Alos benefited for first rak spawn that while party out of Prince LOS, no triggering of rak (same for ultra golems with ambers btw), allowed me to destroy supreme and one ultra without interference.
I could not survive if Prince and his 3 helpers all in party LOS (once I had a run where no less than 8 ambers spawned, on insane no chance to survive this)

What was the hardest fight?

Oasis

Party composition if you were to do it again?

If I was to try insane again with the same purpose (no or minimum reload), I would take the same party!

If some are interested to try from this base, I would just consider to switch Imoen (who still is the right stuff here) to 3 IMO good choices too:
- Cernd (alacrity, smilodon, fast casting, many spells, auramaster, items, unsilencable...)
- Valygar (issue might be cash and forging, but late game a most precious ally, spells of protector and racial combat make him on par or Superior to a RB late game against racial enemies)
- Vagrant (swanmays on top of other summons, greater and queen are awesome, a decent warrior, with quite good elemental resistance which are a real asset)

For other party members my personnal view is that R->C is mandatory on insane (stoneskin, buffs, GR, GR and GR) Necro as protag (with vagrant no way I could no reload some quests fights, but they can be skipped you may say), I would look for 2 destruction slots, better than RBs, I don't see for an insane run (Kensaï has no insta heal and worse AC), Barbarian for rage, HP and physical resist is quite handy and stays a pretty good fighter (my 2H wielder here or dualwielding easthaven/axe of unyielding late game sometimes)

New monk class to come in 6.2 could be a substitute to Barbarian (could because hp are still low), may be a F/M could be tried instead, I pondered to try a dual Kensaï20->mage as I did in a core run, a very interesting char, but nursing is long and early run, on insane, a Kensaï is under constant chunk-threat

Truth to tell, I have never been at ease with dual/multi classes, so may be some who are more at ease (that is to say know how to manage them efficiently) could give helpful advice on this

[bulian]

New monk class to come in 6.2

Critto when does 6.2 come?!?

[critto]

Until the end of summer, I hope The new Monk, however, is already available in 6.1.

This post has been edited by critto: Jul 18 2015, 04:53 PM