trying insane no(or minimum) reload, is it that difficult? Options

[Krell]

Second travel to the Demon Plane is actually an easy fight, provided you did some serious planning in leveling up beforehand. You simply need an effective Remove Magic. Even if you don't have it, PC should be able to fire several quick Breaches the first round, then it's up to the warriors to finish the job. Naturally, you should also start the fight under Mass Invisibility and Alacrity, and Spell Turning for PC to avoid FoD contingencies. And yeah, that fight is useless since there is no one of worth in your party to be able to use the Scarlet Ioun Stone.

The Barbarian means less xp for everyone else, and he is not essential. Mostly because he has too few APR. Early game can be somewhat useful, but frankly, it's better to have a temporary second R-C if you so want a temporary NPC for the tougher early fights (especially against backstabbers or vampires). Late-game cannot compare to a Riskbreaker, since in almost all important cases RB will have 65% physical resistances compared to only 60% of the Barbarian, also the Barb has far lower damage output. Not a bad char, simply slows down your entire party progression.

Having 3 criticals in a row from an enemy who has a chance of roll 17 or higher to inflict one (as I believe all Skeleton Grandlords do) is not something unexpected, on the contrary, things like that should be planned. If you don't plan for things like 2-3 or even more critical misses or enemy critical hits in a crucial moment, then revise your planning strategy. It may not happen often, but one time is more than enough to end your noreload.

[nicoper]

Updated first post

For the moment, really satisfied with this party, it has capacity to resist and a really good capacity to destroy!

Wondering what next:(protag level 21, 4.9 Mxp)

In WK next step is Demon knight room (after thiefling room) for which I have no "waterproof" idea right now
In city:
- fight for Pasha in sphere
- hard nut part 2
- Orcus
- Twisted Rune

In wilderness (when I get Messenger) Lord Roenall fight (this I would choose as next step)
Lady Vania did not show yet (otherwise I would rush to windspear to slaughter assassin then snakes)

Or chapter 7...

[bulian]

I think you have to finish stronghold quests before chapter 7 starts otherwise the messengers won't show up and you will be stuck.

Quite impressive, keep going!

[lroumen]

Strongholds before chapter 7. At that point you don't want to turn back but get to tob asap

[nicoper]

@bulian and @iroumen: You are right, will finish stronghold first

[nicoper]

Updated first post

Trigger chapter 7
End of SOA is near, Remain some big fights (Orcus, Twisted Rune, Nizi, harpist house, second travel to plane and of course tree of life)

[nicoper]

Finished SoA

Another reload (described)
put a tag july 2nd in first post before new edit


My protag is just above 6Mxp (level 23 Necro), a bit less than my usual runs, gear is good but not OP (no ring +4 everywhere, if I could I would, but not enough gold, far from it)
Wonder why some use exploits to reach xp caps early in the game or have infinite gold and call insane run a challenge, but that's just me.

[Krell]

That's the main reason why I said that a Barbarian is obsolete. He is:

A) waste of a lot of resources (gold) to equip
not a very essential warrior
C) xp-downfall for the entire party
D) prevents you from getting more gold, items and xp from temporarily-joinable NPCs and completing their NPC quests

At the same time, a Necro can definitely reach level 30 before the Second travel to the Demon Plane fight, by simply draining each and every enemy out of summons (be it Elemental Golem, Greater Elemental Golem, Ghost Spider, Noble Marilith or Noble Rakshasa) and also temporarily killing a few or more party members in order to get more xp from relatively easier fights.

There is also quite a lot of experience from neutral NPCs, many of those can be killed with no reputation loss, but after a certain point (killing all cowled wizards, completing all quests in Athkatla, buying every item you might need from shops) reputation means very little and you can hack&slash anyone still alive you want (who gives xp, otherwise kinda meaningless)

If you did these things and also looted the entire Athkatla in chapter 6 (there are a lot of plates and free xp in the Temple District for example, also those Shadow thieves really deserve a lesson, Drizzt too - twice) you could've equipped everyone with a +4 and +2 ring and at the same time have enough xp for a successful Remove Magic on balors. BTW, Secret Word should not work against them, check again.

At the time you face the Lesser force, if you don't have enough levels for maxed saving throws (I think it was 25, not sure, yours were lower) and optimal items, then the mages have a chance to fail their saves, however if you leveled them properly and equipped them with top gear (that includes SoTM for the sorcerer for 2 additional saves), and have Foreknowledge running on them, then they won't fail a single save the first time, afterwards you simply need to keep them away from the fight and buff their saves a bit (Stone Form potions, Improved Invisibility, etc).

Necro being surrounded and killed by puny Grandlords is another example of poor planning ahead.

Troubles with Jon on the Tree of Life with a OP party like yours is another such example. Divide and conquer tactic is very easy to apply, simply give Jon a couple of powerful summons to play with (Greater Djinni, Skeleton Lord) while you battle his Hardwood golems at a safe distance. Also, it's not Tenser's, Giant Strength or Improved Haste (why that?) on your Necromancer PC which increase his damage, but Polymorph to Spider + Shocking Grasp. The latter actually gives you four (instead of one) APR, which really makes the difference. Also 123 hp and 85% temporary crushing damage against golems? Funny. Even if it was enough by itself (and it's not) you wish your buffs to be dispelled so that Jon can kill your PC with a random damaging spell? It's a miracle no one was chunked in the Tree fight as well.

[nicoper]

Krell, I am fed up with your ludicrous patronizing columnist behaviour
I have tried to be patient and civilized, but your only talent I recognize is to have brought that patience to an end.

Here my answer to your (I hope and would like to be respected) last post in this thread:

You should stop writing false information on IA out of your ignorance of the mod, just 3 examples of false informations you have written in this thread:
- you spoke about skeleton grandlords for shade lord fight, it is skeleton lords
- for balors in second travel to plane, they start with GOI/Spell turning/ stoneskin/.., so a secret word removes ST and a breach stoneskin. Later in fight they trigger spell shield/pfmw/... so your comment on this is obsolete and misleading
- you said in some earlier post "no one in my party was worth ioun stone gained from lesser force", since it's a Necro specific stone, that proves the extent of your IA knowledge.

At the same time, a Necro can definitely reach level 30 before the Second travel to the Demon Plane fight, by simply draining each and every enemy out of summons (be it Elemental Golem, Greater Elemental Golem, Ghost Spider, Noble Marilith or Noble Rakshasa) and also temporarily killing a few or more party members in order to get more xp from relatively easier fights.

There is also quite a lot of experience from neutral NPCs, many of those can be killed with no reputation loss, but after a certain point (killing all cowled wizards, completing all quests in Athkatla, buying every item you might need from shops) reputation means very little and you can hack&slash anyone still alive you want (who gives xp, otherwise kinda meaningless)

If you did these things and also looted the entire Athkatla in chapter 6 (there are a lot of plates and free xp in the Temple District for example, also those Shadow thieves really deserve a lesson, Drizzt too - twice) you could've equipped everyone with a +4 and +2 ring and at the same time have enough xp for a successful Remove Magic on balors. BTW, Secret Word should not work against them, check again.

Your type of play if full of cheat/cheese/exploit, mine is not, how can you not print that in your mind once and for all?
Do you realize you are the only one around trying to bend other to his own playstyle? Do you think this is a relevant attitude between adults playing to a game?

At the same time, a Necro can definitely reach level 30 before the Second travel to the Demon Plane fight, by simply draining each and every enemy out of summons (be it Elemental Golem, Greater Elemental Golem, Ghost Spider, Noble Marilith or Noble Rakshasa) and also temporarily killing a few or more party members in order to get more xp from relatively easier fights.

No sir, without exploit, make the calculation, no way a 6 party can reach those levels, I don't even comment the levels you should have to milk some of those enemies (even a ghost early game is not easy without first using another exploit before to gain levels)
Your agument does not stand, you just try to hide the many exploits you use and proudly describe in your posts (infinite troll killing,...) behind a false claim to gain those level in a more heroic way like milking an enemy which is a dire threat for party.

Anyway I don't give a damn about this, the only purpose of my run is to test a "IA gameplay as intended by designers" insane minimum reload run (tried no, but no it is no more)
Let people who are interested with this judge and comment.

Necro being surrounded and killed by puny Grandlords is another example of poor planning ahead.

Necro was not killed, read again my post, I spoke of one reload, it was lesser force that killed Necro.
Grandlords are puny while some post ago they were tremendous foes? some glitch of coherence, again?

Troubles with Jon on the Tree of Life with a OP party like yours is another such example. Divide and conquer tactic is very easy to apply, simply give Jon a couple of powerful summons to play with (Greater Djinni, Skeleton Lord) while you battle his Hardwood golems at a safe distance. Also, it's not Tenser's, Giant Strength or Improved Haste (why that?) on your Necromancer PC which increase his damage, but Polymorph to Spider + Shocking Grasp. The latter actually gives you four (instead of one) APR, which really makes the difference. Also 123 hp and 85% temporary crushing damage against golems? Funny. Even if it was enough by itself (and it's not) you wish your buffs to be dispelled so that Jon can kill your PC with a random damaging spell? It's a miracle no one was chunked in the Tree fight as well

Which trouble?
So my party according to the beginning of your post is shit, now it is overpowered? hard to follow your point.
where is the miracle? couldn't you at least try what I did before talking about miracle?

simply give Jon a couple of powerful summons to play with (Greater Djinni, Skeleton Lord) while you battle his Hardwood golems at a safe distance. Also, it's not Tenser's, Giant Strength or Improved Haste (why that?) on your Necromancer PC which increase his damage, but Polymorph to Spider + Shocking Grasp. The latter actually gives you four (instead of one) APR, which really makes the difference. Also 123 hp and 85% temporary crushing damage against golems? Funny. Even if it was enough by itself (and it's not) you wish your buffs to be dispelled so that Jon can kill your PC with a random damaging spell? It's a miracle no one was chunked in the Tree fight as well

Hey wise guy, what did you think my summons were for?

Also, it's not Tenser's, Giant Strength or Improved Haste (why that?) on your Necromancer PC which increase his damage, but Polymorph to Spider + Shocking Grasp. The latter actually gives you four (instead of one) APR, which really makes the difference. Also 123 hp and 85% temporary crushing damage against golems? Funny. Even if it was enough by itself (and it's not) you wish your buffs to be dispelled so that Jon can kill your PC with a random damaging spell? It's a miracle no one was chunked in the Tree fight as well

APR with polymorphing into spider and use a BG2 bug on goul touch (IIRC your previous bragging) that's cheat.
Necro with golem slayer and 2 APR under IH deals damage. Since golem slayer is an IA item dedicated to mage, and an emphasy has been put in IA on Necro, I took the liberty to figure it was something to use in a normal run (and I used it a lot). If you think this risky or idiotic, feel free to, who cares?

That's the main reason why I said that a Barbarian is obsolete. He is:

A) waste of a lot of resources (gold) to equip
cool.gif not a very essential warrior
C) xp-downfall for the entire party
D) prevents you from getting more gold, items and xp from temporarily-joinable NPCs and completing their NPC quests

So having a barbarian is obsolete, killing passer by, party members, using cheat or exploit is not? you definitely have no coherence of mind at all.

So now, please keep of that thread
If you want to discuss your brilliant ideas with people interested with them and your type of play, please do this somewhere else. Open a thread on your own and stop polluting mine (and others as you did and might do) with your nonsense. I wish you to find there a big audience eager to be taught your precious strategies and tactics and learn proper and decent planning and preparation.

Understand that each time you comment a run from whoever it is (and you do that wherever someone writes about IA) it is to say something negative, and each time you are wrong because players achieve what thay wanted to the way they wanted to.
Instead of proving your skills, what you write in fact prove others have much better skills than you since they can make it using (according to you) poor parties, bad tactics, bad preparation, poor planning...

I don't mind, I don't care in fact whatever negative comments you may make on my way of playing, just do it somewhere else.
Here I just put a journal, I would be pleased to discuss (and have criticism) from anyone but you.

This post has been edited by nicoper: Jul 3 2015, 12:59 PM

[critto]

- you spoke about skeleton grandlords for shade lord fight, it is skeleton lords

To be fair, the encounter reacts to party level and introduces Skeleton Grandlords if the party is more powerful than expected (i.e., higher than 13th level).

- you said in some earlier post "no one in my party was worth ioun stone gained from lesser force", since it's a Necro specific stone, that proves the extent of your IA knowledge.

I think it is possible to use the stone by someone with UAI but that hardly qualifies a phrase "no one in my party", indeed.

The rest of what was said by Nico, however, I'll agree upon. I would love to see a complete journal of an insane no-reload run by a six-team party that does not use any infinited XP or gold exploits, or similar garbage, and with tactics that are 100%-foolproof and sound, and could be reproduced by someone with limited tactical skills (me, for example). Otherwise, it's hard to perceive these comments as something other than a report of possible exploits (many of which I don't even intend to fix, because it's sad that someone actually wastes hours of time using those; I won't spend mine on closing them).

This post has been edited by critto: Jul 3 2015, 10:56 AM

[bulian]

Nicoper, I'm quite impressed with your run, especially considering the frequency and use of consumables to get through difficult fights. I tend to hoard these and end up selling them all at the end of the game, which is probably a waste. I'm currently running a party that is similar to yours (necro/RB/RB/(RC multi)/Cernd/2H fighter) on core with reloads so I won't bother posting a journal here. My only challenges are to limit myself to not crafting any weapons until chapter 6 and make it through (almost) all fights without a death - so far just one on Samia's party that I didn't want to redo.

From what I recall though the balors needed 2x RRR + breach to bring down their defensees. Maybe this is an EE thing?

Does haste or IH make a difference on a mage? Seems like the APR would be 2 in both cases. Have you found golem slayer to be a good investment (165k GP)? I tend to buy rod of smiting but only upgrade the slayer for EDE if I can afford it due to other higher priority upgrades.

My only suggestion would be to avoid inflammatory comments - you were very passive aggressive in your last update post and elsewhere in the thread - as a potential means of avoiding comments like the one Krell posted.

Krell, not sure what constructive things you're looking to do here. You've made similar comments about your strategies in pretty much every journal in this forum, so if people are interested in your strategies they are available. You probably don't need to repeat yourself so much.

[nicoper]

Nicoper, I'm quite impressed with your run, especially considering the frequency and use of consumables to get through difficult fights. I tend to hoard these and end up selling them all at the end of the game, which is probably a waste. I'm currently running a party that is similar to yours (necro/RB/RB/(RC multi)/Cernd/2H fighter) on core with reloads so I won't bother posting a journal here. My only challenges are to limit myself to not crafting any weapons until chapter 6 and make it through (almost) all fights without a death - so far just one on Samia's party that I didn't want to redo.

Thanks, and to me greatest fun is to try party on core with reloads (see my other journals, this will most likely be my last insane run and my last no or minimum reload play), so do bother posting journals if you want , many things (details or more fundamental things) to learn reading journals or reports from other players, and always fun (at least for me) to figure the huge variety of handling a party from one player to the other.
You try something I think I never did and will never be able to do: all fights without a death
Not crafting any weapons before chapter 6 (Asylum and Mr Kruin on the way) is also something out of my reach (without phosphorous chapter 3, I feel powerless )

Consumables (oils of resurgence, potions of defense/invulnerability, potions of giant strength,...) are really good ressources and may help a lot (depends also on party members)
Funny thing is that is something I discovered when V6 came out and tried Riskbreaker for the first time (asking for tips about nursing it), before that I was considering consumables to be either components for forging or to be sold.
Tip: use oils of resurgence with at least 2 or 3 running on a char, 1 is too little IMHO
Also should say that I don't use a lot of Healing potions, and ususally end game sell a lot of those (which counterbalance a bit loss of money)

From what I recall though the balors needed 2x RRR + breach to bring down their defensees. Maybe this is an EE thing?

Not an EE thing (I run EE currently)
Balors first have GOI and spell turning, so RRoR*2 or secret word*2 (or secret word + RRoR) are needed to bring down those 2, but since GOI does not repel breach, secret word (or RRoR) and breach removes stoneskin and shields (which are nasty). without the spell shield bug, after Balors trigger, I would use secret word (remove GOI), spell thrust (should remove spell shield without bug) and breach

Why secret word instead of RRoR? I prefer to memorize salamanders at level 7 for this fight and secret word is cast faster than RRoR (4 instead of 5 IIRC)
then when they trigger spell shield, I prefer to wait for pfmw to end

Does haste or IH make a difference on a mage? Seems like the APR would be 2 in both cases. Have you found golem slayer to be a good investment (165k GP)? I tend to buy rod of smiting but only upgrade the slayer for EDE if I can afford it due to other higher priority upgrades.

IH or haste is (IMO) more or less the same
Honestly, I do not always forge Golem slayer, it costs a lot as you said. It is just a good thing to have so that a mage can help against golems after spells are depleted.
A Necro (not mage, Necro can have good resist and high hp) with it does good damages on golems, even with only 2 APR.
Forging it depends also a lot of other forging you intend on party (for example when I have Valygar, I don't forge golem slayer)
I understand your view, items forging is up to the managing of party

My only suggestion would be to avoid inflammatory comments - you were very passive aggressive in your last update post and elsewhere in the thread - as a potential means of avoiding comments like the one Krell posted.

I agree, sorry to have been aggressive, will try to avoid it from now on, my aim is just to share experience and comments (even critics), I should not let anger (even legitimate) take precedence here.

[Krell]

@nicoper

And yeah, that fight is useless since there is no one of worth in your party to be able to use the Scarlet Ioun Stone.

You might want to read more carefully. "no one of worth". And that's In My Opinion. You're free to look at this another way. Naturally, Necro PC can wear the Scarlet Stone. In fact no one than a Necro PC can forge it. It is however almost obsolete if a Necro uses it, and far more useful in the hands of an Assassin-Fighter with UAI.

Skeleton Lords (in the Shade Lord fight) will spawn only if you challenge him on lower levels of experience. If you do it at higher levels (not sure how exactly high) then you'll be battling Grandlords instead. Valid for many random and not-so-random enemy spawns afterwards.

Secret Word doesn't work against the Balor in the Swirfneblin Village (chapter 5). I think these six ones you face in the Demon Plane are identical to him. Moreover, you didn't actually check to see your Secret Words have any effect, unless you showered them with Magic Missiles and Acid Arrows, and I see no such thing in your report. Redo the fight, find out if you can cast low-level spells on the Balors effectively after Secret Word and/or Lower Resistances. I believe you have to use higher-level spells to remove their GoI and Spell Turning, namely Pierce Magic, RRR and Pierce Shield. However, I cannot check those Balors myself, and am not 100% sure that they are identical to the 5-th chapter Balor, that's why I didn't make it final statement, but wrote "probably" and "test it". Because otherwise someone else from the players may be actually fooled and think that Secret Word does work against the Balors, and I'm definitely not convinced it does.

I would also advise you to avoid calling someone's statements of the mod false before actually checking them yourself. Sikret did the same thing long ago, don't turn into him.

I don't see why killing neutral NPCs for xp is cheat. It is there and is allowed by the game. If you don't want, then don't do it, just don't complain afterwards about your low party levels and don't call others cheaters because they plan the xp-gain of their party more carefully than you do. Think of BG2 no-reload as a war. You may win 30 battles, but even the loss of 1 means that you lose the war. In war, most important thing is planning ahead. Second comes certain tactics against powerful enemies. For example, if you don't plan for the EDE from this point on by collecting all PFME scrolls you can find, and you don't raise at least one mage to level 36 (better both), you won't be able to beat the Prince in a no-reload strategy (i.e. you will have to rely on things like Wish-Rest or RVE-Rest). Moreover, it's not wise to do a no-reload with a 6-person party namely because of the xp and gold issues. But still, if you keep just PC and a warrior alive most of the time, you can get PC to very high levels very fast.

Grandlords are puny at that stage of the game, especially for a player who has multiple runs of the mod. For a beginner, they are fearsome. That's the difference. For a Necro PC with RVE and a powerful party they are puny indeed.

I never wrote that your party is bad. Having 2 RB + a Necro PC is by itself OP. Don't twist my words. I wrote several times that your planning ahead is bad and some strategies are questionable, which actually will fail you in the long run. Only one party member looks obsolete, but at that point of the game you have so much invested in him that even the Barbarian cannot be dropped for the good of the party - not anymore.

It's not the Golem Slayer on a mage that's not good enough (although polymporhed is far better). It's the fact that you waste Improved Haste on a mage. That character will have 2 APR even if you only use Oil of Speed, or give him Boots of Speed, or cast plain Haste. Why IH?

Finally, if someone misunderstood, we're talking about the successful completion of the challenge here, not showing off skills or anything. I respect most of your tactics, they show real thinking on your feet and often even some planning in advance. However, your overall planning of this challenge is quite poor. The grand picture of the challenge itself, so to speak, eludes you.

@ critto - thing is, that you have your own term of the word "cheesy tactics" and "exploits". In a paper RPG game, for example, when exiting Underdark, a party can easily get in the crossfire between elves and drow and slaughter everyone. That won't be chase for xp, right? It would be pure defense. Same thing with Shadow Thieves. What help did PC actually get from those? Almost nonexistent. So isn't killing them all in chapter 6 a suitable vengeance. I mean, they are thieves. Everyone kills numerous Cowled Wizards, but no one kills the Shadow Thieves. Why, are they better? That's explanation from a RPG perspective why it's completely possible, because you guys here are so fond of explaining how a DM won't allow you to do this or that in a paper RPG game. Well, guess what. This is a computer RPG, so it has NOTHING to do with paper. Not to mention that originally Dungeon Masters are human and have their own ability to twist the rules their own paper RPG games they way they like to, allowing or disallowing stuff players do at their whim. In IA enemies apply tons of cheese against you. One mild example is for instance how enemies won't cast fire-damaging spells on a character protected from fire. OK, I buffed ProFire 1 mile away from them, they cannot actually know it until they try it out with the first Fireball, right?
Thing is, many not-so-imaginative IA players tend to say things like this or that are impossible without even trying them, and later when someone shows that it's actually possible, the first reaction of the IA players I've seen so far is "no, that's cheese, that's cheating". Learn to live with it. It's allowed or not allowed by the game engine - there is the actual boundary of cheating. All other opinions are non-objective since they're made by humans - the IA players. Even if the majority decides that something is "cheese" or "cheating", that's still not an argument.

@ bulian - Well, since I am actually the only one here who has a successful no-reload run, I personally think that my opinion should be one of the most relevant. I am not "bending anyone's playstyle" as someone commended, I simply give ideas how certain things (gold an xp issues) can be fixed without using infinite xp/gold exploits naturally, and also ideas of certain tactics. If you don't like them, then don't use them, just don't be surprised when this particular no-reload attempt turns into the multiple reload IA-game - which it already did. And this is just the beginning...

This post has been edited by Krell: Jul 3 2015, 01:31 PM

[nicoper]

@Krell: Get lost

[Krell]

I also forgot to add two things:

First, it would be nice for the Pierce Shield scrolls quick-slot castable (at present, they aren't). All other scrolls are, so these should be no exception IMO.

Second, forging the Golem Slayer so early in the game is not a very wise investment for a no-reload game. There are other, much more important items which you may want to get prior to that. Dragon Lord halberd and the Golem Slayer are probably the last items which should be forged in a no-reload game (prior to EDE), and only if you have money for both - otheriwse the Golem Slayer is way too underpowered for its money value (approximately 170 000 gp lost).

[nicoper]

@admin: Since krell does not have the decency to remain out of this thread after request to do so, is it possible to ban him from it? (or at least remove his future posts from it?)

[Krell]

@nicoper - Well, unlike you, I didn't slander or insult you in any way, nor did I give any misleading info, so I don't see a reason why I should be banned from the discussion here. Still, since you started this topic and this run, I respect your wish and will not write even a single message in this topic from now on.

Edit: My promise stands as long as I don't see any insults coming my way.

Edit: Sorry for that, but hopefully it can be later transferred or deleted from the discussion. A response to critto anyways:

thing is, that you have your own term of the word "cheesy tactics" and "exploits". In a paper RPG game, for example, when exiting Underdark, a party can easily get in the crossfire between elves and drow and slaughter everyone. That won't be chase for xp, right? It would be pure defense. Same thing with Shadow Thieves. What help did PC actually get from those? Almost nonexistent.

Our explanation for cheese is completely valid and has a meaning of a player doing something that is without logic or reason (except for pure profit in terms of power gaming) and is not prevented by the game due to bugs, or engine and scripting limitations. If it were a paper game, a sane DM would've reacted to a lawful good, reputation 20 player who suddenly commits genocide against city's population. The game has no means to do that. Therefore it is an exploit and is seen such as that by any sane player. This what Sikret meant when he appealed to respect game's limitations a play honestly and honourably. You abuse those limitations and call this fair. It is not. The same with Shadow Thieves. If you join Bodhi, you're evil and murder them all. It is justified. When they are your allies and provide you with a ship to Brynnlaw, murdering them without repercussions is a senseless act that is not handled by the game (because the devs didn't have the time to account for all possibilities) or mod (because Sikret had even less time to do so).

It is the IA game limitations that force me (and many other players) to pick a LG protagonist. Otherwise, many players would go for either a Neutral or Evil alignment, in which case even rooting out an entire city won't make it such a big deal in the eyes of a honest paper DM (if thing like an absolutely objective human GM exists at all, and it doesn't). The shadow thieves have enormous treasure. A neutral or evil PC would be very tempted to kill them either in chapter 3 or 6, but will also not be stopped by the idea of killing the vampires as well, and this also would be a legal papergame action. As for powergaming, that's what mainly IA is all about. BTW, attacking for example the Shadow Thieves in the original game WAS punished by the game engine, by spawning Arkanis Gath with the Killsword. There was your limitation, well until Sikret decided to remove it.

Edit: Just for the fun of the discussion, no sane human Dungeon Master would allow a Lawful Good Necromancer in his game.

In IA enemies apply tons of cheese against you. One mild example is for instance how enemies won't cast fire-damaging spells on a character protected from fire. OK, I buffed ProFire 1 mile away from them, they cannot actually know it until they try it out with the first Fireball, right?

In your precious no-reload, plan ahead strategies you plan for each and every resistance, immunity and such. Yeah, the enemies in the game might do something that a player cannot and you may even call this cheese but it is meant to prevent the most possible cheesy behavior of a real human player, which is possessing a brain. Why do you play each fight buffing your characters to death and never testing out a useless fireball on an enemy to make sure he's not immune to it? I mean, the protagonist can't possibly know how those bandits are protected. This is why AI acts that way. To have at least a standing chance against a player who ultimately will win. Personally, I'd love to implement a behavior where an enemy acts intelligently, tries something out and never tries again, but this is impossible to script, which is an engine limitation once again. I've already explained the point about enemies putting on all their buffs in one second and it is made so, and why it will never be made another way. DavidW hadn't made it that way in SCS, he merely presented the player with an option to prevent the instant buffing of enemies for those players who want an easier experience. And David's mod is superior to IA in terms of pure engineering (i.e., how mod is implemented), in my personal opinion.

As I said, this was a mild example. Don't even wanna start digging into more excessive IA cheese&cheat stuff like the Lower Elemental Resistance issues for example, or immune-to-everything enemies before the actual fight starts, and many more. If you look at that particular example above, it's basically cheese vs cheese - monsters cheesily act the same way as a player who has experience with the mod would also do. I get it, cannot be done in a fair manner, but when your own IA mod monsters use cheese (a lot), then don't expect me to not do the same in return, especially if we're talking about a no-reload challenge here. Everyone with the so-called fair tactics - you have the ultimate cheat spell "load game" to cast as many times as you like. Enjoy!

Thing is, many not-so-imaginative IA players tend to say things like this or that are impossible without even trying them, and later when someone shows that it's actually possible, the first reaction of the IA players I've seen so far is "no, that's cheese, that's cheating". Learn to live with it. It's allowed or not allowed by the game engine - there is the actual boundary of cheating. All other opinions are non-objective since they're made by humans - the IA players. Even if the majority decides that something is "cheese" or "cheating", that's still not an argument.

Your approach is comes dangerously close to being Machiavellian. The end justifies the means.

This is a game. A PC game. NOT the real life or anything so yeah, it's a completely normal conclusion. The end indeed justifies the means. However, arguing about who's a fair player and who's cheater is, once again, subjective if left to the opinion of human players. We may limit this to "things I'd do" and "things I won't do". I think this is much more reasonable.

This post has been edited by Krell: Jul 3 2015, 02:39 PM

[critto]

thing is, that you have your own term of the word "cheesy tactics" and "exploits". In a paper RPG game, for example, when exiting Underdark, a party can easily get in the crossfire between elves and drow and slaughter everyone. That won't be chase for xp, right? It would be pure defense. Same thing with Shadow Thieves. What help did PC actually get from those? Almost nonexistent.

Our explanation for cheese is completely valid and has a meaning of a player doing something that is without logic or reason (except for pure profit in terms of power gaming) and is not prevented by the game due to bugs, or engine and scripting limitations. If it were a paper game, a sane DM would've reacted to a lawful good, reputation 20 player who suddenly commits genocide against city's population. The game has no means to do that. Therefore it is an exploit and is seen such as that by any sane player. This what Sikret meant when he appealed to respect game's limitations a play honestly and honourably. You abuse those limitations and call this fair. It is not. The same with Shadow Thieves. If you join Bodhi, you're evil and murder them all. It is justified. When they are your allies and provide you with a ship to Brynnlaw, murdering them without repercussions is a senseless act that is not handled by the game (because the devs didn't have the time to account for all possibilities) or mod (because Sikret had even less time to do so).

In IA enemies apply tons of cheese against you. One mild example is for instance how enemies won't cast fire-damaging spells on a character protected from fire. OK, I buffed ProFire 1 mile away from them, they cannot actually know it until they try it out with the first Fireball, right?

In your precious no-reload, plan ahead strategies you plan for each and every resistance, immunity and such. Yeah, the enemies in the game might do something that a player cannot and you may even call this cheese but it is meant to prevent the most possible cheesy behavior of a real human player, which is possessing a brain. Why do you play each fight buffing your characters to death and never testing out a useless fireball on an enemy to make sure he's not immune to it? I mean, the protagonist can't possibly know how those bandits are protected. This is why AI acts that way. To have at least a standing chance against a player who ultimately will win. Personally, I'd love to implement a behavior where an enemy acts intelligently, tries something out and never tries again, but this is impossible to script, which is an engine limitation once again. I've already explained the point about enemies putting on all their buffs in one second and it is made so, and why it will never be made another way. DavidW hadn't made it that way in SCS, he merely presented the player with an option to prevent the instant buffing of enemies for those players who want an easier experience. And David's mod is superior to IA in terms of pure engineering (i.e., how mod is implemented), in my personal opinion.

Thing is, many not-so-imaginative IA players tend to say things like this or that are impossible without even trying them, and later when someone shows that it's actually possible, the first reaction of the IA players I've seen so far is "no, that's cheese, that's cheating". Learn to live with it. It's allowed or not allowed by the game engine - there is the actual boundary of cheating. All other opinions are non-objective since they're made by humans - the IA players. Even if the majority decides that something is "cheese" or "cheating", that's still not an argument.

Your approach is comes dangerously close to being Machiavellian. The end justifies the means.

PS: Nico, sorry to hijack your thread. I won't comment further on anything that is not related to your journal. If you wish, I can delete all the off-topic from him.

This post has been edited by critto: Jul 3 2015, 02:09 PM

[nicoper]

PS: Nico, sorry to hijack your thread. I won't comment further on anything that is not related to your journal. If you wish, I can delete all the off-topic from him.

You're welcome (and can comment further on whatever you want in this thread as others are welcomed to do). Let all the posts remain as they are since Krell commited not to post anymore here.

thks

Edit: should Krell post again, please delete his posts (let him make his points somewhere else)

This post has been edited by nicoper: Jul 3 2015, 02:18 PM

[critto]

Accepted.

Krell, if you desire to argue on the issue some more feel free to create a separate thread. Or better yet, make a promised no-reload thread for a full-game party which you've intended to do and we'll discuss your tactics