Party of lesser-used classes and kits Options

[chaser]

To utilize AI weakness——I mean some behaviors such as run out enemy`s sight then save/load or rest,separate Kurin and elemental golems,etc···Not suggest IA veterans do that.

[Krell]

Actually the ADHW tactic seems fine for the balors. Pierce Magic or Pierce Shield can also be used to lower their resistance - Pierce Magic is better because it has a shorter-casting time. It may be tricky to shoot 6*ADHW via two Chain Contingencies though, but this also can be arranged by setting the first one to trigger at 50% HP and then use damage spells on self to trigger it at the right moment. Also Greater Malison to lower their saves. Well thought. @chaser - if you could provide some link to those Chinese forums, my guess is that we all have a lot to learn from those guys.

Not sure if IA fixes the bug where ADHW targeting self via CC ignores enemy magic resistance. If not, there is the answer to that easy tactic. I never thought of using ADHW on balors myself, but then again I also never checked their resistances and vulnerabilities. My guess is that a lot of easy IA tactics can be developed if one is familiar with all enemy stats, skills and resistances before engaging in combat.

@ blastermaster - concerning your Lesser Force victory, well thought, mainly because the tactic can be applied on insane difficulty with great probability of success, but will require some Barbarian Essences as well. In my run, I won't be able to reach that place, because I forgot that the expanded Necro quests are only available to a good-aligned necromancer, and mine, naturally, is evil - as all Necromancers are.

BTW, I didn't quite get it, did you defeat Orcus or not? Because it seemed you had a lot of trouble with him as well.

Also, where did you get the Time Stop scroll needed for the Expanded mage stronghold quests? As far as I remember, only the Ancient Dragon has a copy.

If you attempt the Twisted Rune, a word of advice - stay away from Vexaal and keep him busy with summons. Apart from a Monster Summoning VII scroll in there, nothing useful for your character, the Staff of the Magi can only be used by evil mages in v6.

[nicoper]

The exploit where item abilities are refreshed once they're placed in Bag of Holding has long been fixed by TObex. I don't understand why its not in Anvil. It has far better implementation of numerous features which Anvil tries to emulate in a rather crude way.

This is the first time I hear about the bag of holding issue. Could you clarify?

@critto:
It is a vanilla prehistoric bug, once you put an item (summon, eye glasses, armor, weapon,....) with "0" charge in bag of hoding (any bag) and take it out, it recovers one charge.
this is valid for IA and non-IA items.

A complete ludicrous cheat IMO (I consider ludicrous cheats things that playing PnP you would not even dare to ask any dungeon master), no need to correct it, people who use it will (or have already) find other engine bugs to fulfill their aim.
That said, let everybody enjoy the game as he/she wants, but let's not make a confusion between handling a fight through engine bugs or through managing a party (or a solo player).

@blaster master:
Your accounts gave me temptation to try some "solo" fights with a high-level char (if only the balors who are, even with a party, a quite difficult fight), since I know nothing about scipting I will try to find a save, Crtl-Y party members and level-up my Necro (I don't even know how to make a multi Necro/fighter, to see the extent of my ignorance).

If I had to try a "weird" solo char run, I wonder how far a multi Auramaster/Kensaï would go in IA....

[critto]

A complete ludicrous cheat IMO (I consider ludicrous cheats things that playing PnP you would not even dare to ask any dungeon master), no need to correct it, people who use it will (or have already) find other engine bugs to fulfill their aim.

There's no way to fix it via scripts anyway, only by patching the executable.

[blastermaster]

Nicoper, it's a ton of fun. Solo games are in many ways more fun because it gets tedious in 6-character games applying all buffs to all characters, over and over. My character is using the level cap, so he's level 23 Mage, 27 Fighter. I think he could do *almost* as well as a level 9 Berserker (or plain fighter) dualed to a Necro. The Thac0 would be problematic, as would the lack of Critical Strikes, but it would be nice to be immune to Remove Magic and to have those extra level 9 spells.

If you want to turn your necro into a fighter mage, the best way is to just use Shadowkeeper. You can alter his base HP, his base Thac0, his saves, and his base attacks per round to 2.5 (1 base, 0.5 for specialization, 0.5 for level 7 fighter, 0.5 for level 13 fighter). Oh and adjust proficiencies too of course. I went a more circuitous route as I didn't want to have to open up Shadow Keeper every time I leveled in the early levels. I would definitely suggest trying the Balor fight if you have a save around there. Would be cool to try chaser's ADHW strategy; I think with the right preparation of RVE Mental Agilities, you might be able to fire off enough Lower Resistances and ADHW's to knock out some or all of them. Timing will be crucial though, as you'll be taking 18 Finger of Deaths and even if they don't kill you, most will disrupt.

Kensai/Auramaster would be cool. At the beginning of this run, I had regrets and wanted to try a Ranger/Cleric type of character (maybe a Protector/Cleric, or a Vagrant/Cleric). Rangers are my favorite class and how awesome would it be to have the Improved Haste boots on a solo char :-) However, at this point I can say I don't think that character would be feasible. Lack of Breach would be hurtful, but the real problem is lack of PFMW. That spell is just so crucial; Stone/Ironskins at 10 per casting just don't hold up. I won't say it's impossible, but it seems like it would be to me. Kensai/Auramaster is fairly easy to set up in Shadow Keeper though.

What I would suggest if someone wants a challenge is to try to beat IA with a party of 3 "legal" characters. I'd probably suggest a Necro protagonist and a F/M and maybe some kind of divine caster (or, frankly, another F/M). I am very confident this can be accomplished after my experience thus far. It may well be possible with 2 legal characters as well, something like a Necro and a F/M or maybe two F/M. The only concern I'd have is where to find Spell Immunity scrolls due to the dumb scripts related to small parties and F/M characters.

Another cool challenge would be a no-arcane party. I don't see any record of someone trying this on the forums, but I think it would be reasonably feasible. Vagrant protagonist, Auramaster, Protector, and one or two Ranger-Clerics perhaps. With enough ironskinned characters, positioning and movement could allow them to share the brunt of blows enough that they can each refresh their skins once per round and stay alive.

This post has been edited by blastermaster: May 22 2015, 12:25 PM

[Krell]

@ nicoper: I myself think that the bag of holding recharge item is a cheat, however I just wanted to try if there is ANY possible way to defeat the Ancient Dragon on Insane with a multiclass F/M protagonist without resorting to external game changes or CLUAconsole commands. Now that I did that, I am curious if there is a way for a solo character to make a successful IA v6 no-reload insane run even with such in-game cheats and exploits like the bag of holding recharge item or infinite xp/gold exploits. Are you familiar with the Tactics mod? People say it is virtually passable only by applying cheese tactics vs AI's cheesy scripts. In a way, IA v6 has turned the same if you attempt it in a solo game.

@ chaser:

To utilize AI weakness——I mean some behaviors such as run out enemy`s sight then save/load or rest,separate Kurin and elemental golems,etc···Not suggest IA veterans do that.

Divide and conquer has been a legal tactic since the world exist. For me, those who didn't try to win against Kruin by dividing his forces simply were unable to think of this tactic. As for "IA veterans" or "tacticians" - IMO any who plays on Core difficulty with multiple reloads isn't one. Playing on core is like wearing a 50% damage protective item at all times, compared to Insane. And reloading multiple times to get one win which you can then again repeat after multiple reloads is, well, not a good tactic at all. It's just a way to show to all players how great is the overpowered spell "Load Game" once again. The only tactician on this forum is a guy with the nickname HTRT, since he alone could devise sound insane tactics in his run. Nicoper did some decent victories in his Insane run, but he failed to win the EDE, which is the real challenge.

As for a Kensai/Auramaster - I think such a character has a decent chance of success but only with the xp cap removed, because this way he can get really good physical resistance, which will compensate for the lack of PFMW.

[chaser]

Except the link I metioned above,there are some more.Some threads relate a lot exploits or spoilers,I decide not paste them here,if someone really want to take a look,you can PM me.

[nicoper]

If you want to turn your necro into a fighter mage, the best way is to just use Shadowkeeper. You can alter his base HP, his base Thac0, his saves, and his base attacks per round to 2.5 (1 base, 0.5 for specialization, 0.5 for level 7 fighter, 0.5 for level 13 fighter). Oh and adjust proficiencies too of course. I went a more circuitous route as I didn't want to have to open up Shadow Keeper every time I leveled in the early levels. I would definitely suggest trying the Balor fight if you have a save around there. Would be cool to try chaser's ADHW strategy; I think with the right preparation of RVE Mental Agilities, you might be able to fire off enough Lower Resistances and ADHW's to knock out some or all of them. Timing will be crucial though, as you'll be taking 18 Finger of Deaths and even if they don't kill you, most will disrupt.

My "solo" idea for balor was to use a "Clua-cheated" high level Necro (maybe 29-30) and try to figure a magic-fighting of demon bunch.
For FoD here, I usually rely on (previously cast) Foreknowledge and aura cleansed to trigger SI:Nec While they all fly towards me

Kensai/Auramaster would be cool. At the beginning of this run, I had regrets and wanted to try a Ranger/Cleric type of character (maybe a Protector/Cleric, or a Vagrant/Cleric). Rangers are my favorite class and how awesome would it be to have the Improved Haste boots on a solo char :-) However, at this point I can say I don't think that character would be feasible. Lack of Breach would be hurtful, but the real problem is lack of PFMW. That spell is just so crucial; Stone/Ironskins at 10 per casting just don't hold up. I won't say it's impossible, but it seems like it would be to me. Kensai/Auramaster is fairly easy to set up in Shadow Keeper though.

ironskin is instantaneous in vanilla BG2 for aura (casting is 10 in BG2EE only)
Vagrant/cleric I thought about, but dismissed because subject to silence...

What I would suggest if someone wants a challenge is to try to beat IA with a party of 3 "legal" characters. I'd probably suggest a Necro protagonist and a F/M and maybe some kind of divine caster (or, frankly, another F/M). I am very confident this can be accomplished after my experience thus far. It may well be possible with 2 legal characters as well, something like a Necro and a F/M or maybe two F/M. The only concern I'd have is where to find Spell Immunity scrolls due to the dumb scripts related to small parties and F/M characters.

I tried with 4 chars, very fun, for 3 I was once warned by Sikret that anti-cheat measures could make this impossible (or with huge drawbacks), though I wanted to try it ! (my pick there would have been Necro, RB and valygar)
I wanted to try it without breaking xp cap or exploit, having a party of 6 before spellhold (within cap) and reduce it to 3 after meeting Imoen (like I did for my party of 4)

Another cool challenge would be a no-arcane party. I don't see any record of someone trying this on the forums, but I think it would be reasonably feasible. Vagrant protagonist, Auramaster, Protector, and one or two Ranger-Clerics perhaps. With enough ironskinned characters, positioning and movement could allow them to share the brunt of blows enough that they can each refresh their skins once per round and stay alive.

No arcane I did and still do consider, party was supposed at first to be 3 vagrants, valygar (or a dual R->C) and 2 auramasters
Idea was vagrants can resist a lot magic assaults and provide supreme summons a plenty and are pretty decent fighters (I once had a successful run with Necro, sorc, 2 aura, 2 vagrants), auras with RRoR and dispel magic (once they reach a certain level) can cope with mages, valygar or R->C buff, heal support and fight, but realized my concern was to be IH! (one pair of boots late game is too scarce).
Solution is (as far as I consider a no-arcane party) to switch 2 vagrants to 2 RBs, keep one for summons (and magic/physical/elemental resist) and board Valygar (boots of IH for him later on)
I'm also interested to read about a no-arcane party!

[blastermaster]

If the Balors were all in synch, you could "respond" to the Fingers while they are mid-flight with SI:Nec. But for one reason or another, their timing is a bit staggered, so it's hard to rely on this. I thought it would be my path to victory as well, but I wasn't able to do it reliably. Especially because inevitably some of them are right next to you, so by the time you see them fire off the Chain Contingency, you're too close to get the SI up.

For ironskins, I don't mean casting time but the number of "skins" or hits that it negates. As a solo char, there are many fights where I am getting hit more than 10 times per round. Or would be, without PFMW :-)

It's unfortunate that this mod seems to be viewed as a "difficulty" mod, rather than a "content" mod. There is a lot of cool content in the strongholds and other areas, but the degree to which someone can explore the mod and have fun in their own way is really shackled by what seems to be a desire to ensure that the mod maintains a status of being the most hardcore.

For no-arcane, it would be pretty awesome to have 3 Vagrants and have something like 15 Swanmays helping you out sometimes. I had thought a bunch of R/C would be better to just keep raining Greater Restorations (an approximation of the Recast Vital Energy: Regeneration strategy). Now that I think of it though, I forgot the lack of Arcane spells would remove Improved Haste from the equation for most of SoA. So maybe Riskbreakers are a better call than divine casters.

As for my current run, I just killed Irenicus and have paused at the beginning of ToB. The Slayer's regeneration is perhaps the highest in the game. I actually reloaded once because I thought the Slayer was bugged... I couldn't get him off of Barely Injured for something like 5 rounds of swinging nonstop. I did have some Critical Strikes but forgot to use them; I assumed there was some kind of bug where it didn't record my kill of one of his helpers so he was invulnerable. Upon the reload, I was able to grind him out with about 7 rounds of Critical Strikes.

[blastermaster]

Ilasera, easy. Gromnir, not too bad. Fire temple, not too bad. I thought I remembered a lot more Elite Fire Giants in there with my party of 6 runthrough earlier this year.

Nyalee took a couple of reloads for me to figure out how to kill her from a position in which I could actually escape the area. First two tries I was able to kill her but could not kill the Skeleton Lords and other baddies faster than they were being created, and as a result I just got trapped. Shambling Mounds are immune to crushing, I forgot about this. Such a cool art for those guys, it's a shame you only see something like four of them in the entire game.

[blastermaster]

Supreme Leader is looking very difficult. It appears there is no limit to the golem summons of those two summoners, so they clearly have to be killed as top priority. However the resulting Anti-Inquisitors are a nightmare. 90 physical resist, 150 HP (not to mention their potions), and they strip protections and lower fire resistance and attack with fire every 2 rounds.

I will try to give it a shot with RVE regeneration, since that isn't dispelled, but I suspect if I enter the area with it, it will only last long enough for me to kill the summoners (when I don't need it anyways).

If that doesn't work (and I don't expect it to), I may have to use some barbarian essence potions here. 4 potions would get me to 105 physical resist, which may be enough (if I let a couple of coin and gem golems wail on me) to keep me alive until the Anti-Inquisitors are dead. I wanted to save them for EDE, but offhand the only other time I think I might need them before then is the Yaga Shura battle, which terrifies me.

[critto]

Playing on core is like wearing a 50% damage protective item at all times, compared to Insane.

This is speculation. By the game designers' definition, core rules is what constitutes a normal amount of damage, everything lower being halved or otherwise reduced and everything higher being artificially increased. Insane is not a base point against which one should judge another's ability.

[Krell]

Playing on core is like wearing a 50% damage protective item at all times, compared to Insane.

This is speculation. By the game designers' definition, core rules is what constitutes a normal amount of damage, everything lower being halved or otherwise reduced and everything higher being artificially increased. Insane is not a base point against which one should judge another's ability.

To some extent, I agree. Core-level players sometimes come up with great tactics. Still, Insane-level develops tactical skills much further. Many successful runs I've read about in this forum would be impossible to repeat on Insane with the described tactics. No-reload feature adds a lot more to the tactical skill of a player. Many core IA players think of (and use) similar tactics, which have high probability chance of success on Core, and not so high on Insane. To put it simply - finding a working Core tactic - relatively easy. Finding a working Insane tactic - much harder. Finding a working Insane tactic which has a probability win chance 100% - this should be the goal to any who tries to really develop tactical skills. I am really frustrated with the idea of chaining one's mind and forcing him/her to play the game in a more or less linear fashion. Things like *always keep the party together in a fight*, *don't replenish spell sequencers in a midst of a fight*, *never retreat*, etc, etc may sound glorifying, but remind me of some sort of military commands and rules. Why? This is a game. Commandments like that will limit severely the skill of the player who decides to follow them. First, many still-existing bugs and exploits will be left unfound. Second, many good tactics will never be discovered.

I completely understand that many of even experienced IA players don't feel confident to undertake an Insane run. Just a word of advice - since most of you never completed an Insane run, don't be too hasty to judge the tactics of a player who has.

Edit: Had to quit my solo evil necromancer run. After clearing the sphere and temple ruins, no Vocalize scroll was found on Traxi's body. Without the amulet of Hades, I might as well try my F/M/T from v5 solo. I hoped that a solo necromancer won't trigger any *ant-solo* precautions. Apparently he does. F/M/T solo should be fair enough, since there are heavy anti-solo measures installed in the mod. It's basically cheese vs cheese as I already explained.

At present, my F/M/T solo insane has just won the Twisted Rune on the first attempt (chapter 3).

This post has been edited by Krell: May 24 2015, 01:08 AM

[chaser]

Does an no arcane party include bards or an UAI thief(K/T,A/F and so on)?No lower risistance and breach hurt a lot,have one or two bards will compensate it a little.

In fact,the author of the mage party,whose nickname is "+9"(I translate its Chinese meaning into English),he and I and several other players developed some sound tactics for insane difficulty.To play a succesful insane run,there are 4 factors should take into consideration:

1.Party composition:You need at least 1.5 arcane casters(at least one dual mage and one multi mage),1 healer,2 or more woarriors in party.It's a standard party,can cope with any situation(IMO).Weird party compositon is not suit for insane difficulty,you might get stuck somewhere.

2.Be familier with enemies:Good tactics are based on being familier with enemy weakness,you can reload several times to find it,or use Ctrl+R to see enemy stats and resistances directly.The biggest secrets are hidden in DLTCEP,to check enemy skills and behaviors,it would make a player lose interest to this game soon,I never use it nor recommend it.

3.The order you play the game:There are at least two bosses are extremely hard on insane,if you want to face them early,namely,in late SOA.
One is ancient dragon,the antient dragon breath may cause extremely high damage on insane,which can get a 200+ hp(in theory, a 320 HP character) 0 fire resistance character who succeed in save with breath chuncked in one hit.+9 developed a good tactic against it,you should take a look.It would be much easier to defeat it if you leave this boss to TOB.
Another one is demon prince.The demon prince have a skill "burn mortal",he would use it very frequently after he summons all minions.Burn mortal will cause very high fire damage,cooperate with infinite lower fire resistance,rm and other fire AOE,any party member whose HP below 150 don't even dare get close to him.If you face him in late TOB,after have a lv32 mage,he can be killed before all minions summons,or he wouldn't have chance to cast burn mortal that many times.However,the earlier you face him,the earlier JD sword you obtain,so I decided to challenge him in late SOA,in the first time after I defeat antient dragon(my party has only 8m xp average).It was an extremely tough fight,I reloaded so many times and get through once,very memorable.However,owning JD sword early gave me more pleasure than the pain I suffered.I defeated Orcus,mirror master and most TOB bosses including rakashasa prince easily with the help of this sword.

4.Executive ability:Insane difficulty require more executive ability than core.A minor mistake will kill the party,no-brainer tactics wouldn't work on insane.

All in all,insane difficulty inspire thorough tactics and better exceution,on the contrary,it restrict different party composition and different ways to play this game,some less powerful classes have no chance to appear,some bosses you wouldn't challenge at low level.

Krell,I watched some of your no-reload insane run videos,very great achievement.However,I don't suggest you been confined to a 100% certain tactic,some are a little consevative,some are using exploits.Why not try some more radical way?You may fail sometimes though,just like I did in JD fight,but you can taste a lot new things.Developing a perfect tactic and reload as fewer as possible is a goal to everyone,but don't be too insistent.For me,try different party composition and defeat a boss as quick as possible is my pursuit,I'll to make sure it first,then I'll consider reload fewer times.

[Krell]

I see your point, chaser, ok, let's everyone play the game the way they like, agreed?

Further testing (with a 40/40/40 F/M/T):

Orcus has some nasty script (Purges every 4 rounds). No need to fight him, but I will anyway. Turns out he can be manipulated very easily by leaving the Daystar blade on his doorstep. This way, one could prepare the battlefield (lacing it with multiple powerful summons for example), go back to catacombs level 1, pick up the Daystar from the ground, go back to catacombs level 2 and fight Orcus on much better terms.

Noble Spider does some good damage vs Skeleton Grandlords. Those have significant resistance vs piercing damage, yet I saw Noble Spiders doing averagely 10 dmg per hit. However even a horde of 16 Noble Spiders was easily slain by Orcus' army. I really need Greater Djinnis here.

The best weapon vs the Chromatic Demon remains Treefolk's Arm +3. It can be wielded with UAI (no penalty), and does additional 1 dmg per hit due to the demon being *unnatural* creature. The ice form is the worst, I suggest to be at the ready with freedom potion/scroll when he shapeshifts and gulp the potion/use the scroll for protection vs Freeze Mortals' slow effect. I had to use both the Dak'kon zerth blade + Ring of Acuity, and also the Ring of Wizardry + CC to get the necessary amount of Ice Storms and Cones of Cold to bring the demon to at least Badly Injured in the first two rounds. Other strategies may also be viable, like memorizing several Lower Resistance instead of Cones and waiting for the demon to transform, however that may not happen at all. So the sound strategy remains ice spells in the beginning + Treefolk Arm melee.

Marvella doesn't appear in the planar sphere at all. Probably another anti-solo or more likely anti-F/M PC measure.

This post has been edited by Krell: May 25 2015, 06:10 AM

[blastermaster]

Summoning a Noble Djinni every round is like wearing a 100% damage resistance belt, compared to people who don't abuse bugs.

[blastermaster]

Tried Supreme Leader with 5 barbarian essence potions, and it was easy. Won on first try by getting Supreme Leader isolated with some time to spare with the Barbarian Essence potions.

Took a few more tries with just 4 (getting me to 105 phys resist) and managed to win with some careful positioning (ensure you're surrounded by mostly Gem and Coin Golems, maintain fire resistance to avoid Comet which can displace a great setup). Tried the Gnasher club method on the anti-inquisitors and it seemed to work well. Upgraded Jhor seemed to work equally well, but no save on the Gnasher extra damage is pretty great.

Going to continue with WK as long as I can as I am dreading Yaga Shura.

[Krell]

Summoning a Noble Djinni every round is like wearing a 100% damage resistance belt, compared to people who don't abuse bugs.

Well, my F/M character doesn't have the Memory of the Apprenti (nor the Robe of Vecna actually, I doubt it will be found on the Ancient Dragon, probably wasn't dropped due to anti-solo precautions) or RVE, or Lord of the Underworld amulet. If I had all of those and was able to wear them, believe me, nothing else would be needed. Still, I reserve the multiple summons only to be used against enemies who use Greater or Grave silence, against which my char has no protection. So far used it vs the Twisted Rune only.

[blastermaster]

I see your point, chaser, ok, let's everyone play the game the way they like, agreed?

Please follow your own advice and stop butting into every thread on this forum to theorize about how someone's battle decisions would not work in a completely different setup such as your own.

[Krell]

A bit more info about the Mithril golem from my own run:

Hardiness is a no-no. The golem dispels combat protections once every round, and Hardiness unfortunately counts as one. (Minor) Globe cannot be dispelled by the golem however and is great vs his otherwise hard to save vs Slow spell. Limited Wish casts the Globe on all party members, but unfortunately not on summons. Treefolk's Arm at this stage of the game is probably the best weapons against the golem alongside the Black Blade of Disaster - they basically do almost the same amount of damage - average 3.3 per hit. Only by chaining five Alacrities, GWWs, Critical strikes and multiple (8 or 9) PFMW, I was able to best the golem, carefully watching for the nasty "specific protections dispelled" message every round and reacting immediately with a PFMW spell to it.

Also concerning other Improved Asylum encounters and info for those who never tried it:

Do not go near the portal on the base level. An Ice Golem, an Elemental Golem + a bunch of minor golems guard it, in addition to Ruhk and his mephits. Those drop no treasure nor do they give experience. The Doomplate is simply not worth that.

Skeleton Warlords will spawn right behind the Umberhulk painting on the Machine token level. In the current run got 4, in a previous run with 6 high-leveled party members got 24, so do the math - for each high-leveled party member you get additional 4 Skeleton Warlords to fight.


Forgetting to bring a wooden stake from Athkatla in the basic version of the asylum is nothing more than a minor nuisanse. In the hardest version however is a lot of pain. Resting on the Library level is hellish.

Pursuers: On base level, 3 Whisper spiders will appear immediately after the party has rested. On Library and Machine levels, each turn a group of pursuers will spawn, chase and attack the party. Listen for the footsteps to recognize what enemies you face. A slight clicking noise alarms for a group of 3 Whisper Spiders. Slow, heavy steps indicate a group of two Asylum scouts. And finally fast sounds similar to a bone hitting a bone indicates a group of 3 Skeleton Lords, who unlike other Skeleton Lords are actually immune to fire. None of these gives xp.