IAv6 party composition, This was bound to come up Options

[lroumen]

With regard to the new adventures into the realm of Improved Anvil I was thinking about a new party composition that would give good results and new challenges for me. Of course there is a standard layout of each IA party that is almost necessary if you want to have a relatively relaxed time throughout the majority of the challenges. So if you do not have this layout you may be destined to have a tough time.

General layout:
1-2 single class warriors for high damage output. Recommended is one going dual-wield (rangers are nice) and one going two-handed weapons (paladins are nice).
1-2 dual-class warriors or characters capable of melee fighting such that they can perform a secondary task like buffing, debuffing, thieving, healing, summoning (R/C, F/C, F/M, F/T, swashbuckler or blades are examples dualled or multi'd)
1-2 clerics or druids for healing, buffing, summoning (use shields)
1-2 mages for dispelling, disabling, damage (three is better)
Anyway.... something like this.


There are going to be a few new developments in v6 and I am tempted to try those out. Here is a grasp of what I found interesting. There is a lot more to be read here of course.
1. Expanded mage stronghold for good-aligned necromancers.
2. Valygar the Protector
3. Improved Riskbreaker bonuses
4. Nerfed Bard spells
5. Improved Swashbuckler HLAs
6. Nerfed small people saves


My own thoughts for a party.
- I did not play protagonist mage properly since v2, so I am tempted to go with the necromancer.
- I have not yet played well with an Auramaster so I was tempted to try that out this time too.
- I'm intrigued by the Protector kit for Valygar (whom I normally just slay).
- Riskbreaker I'm playing right now so I will not be doing that this time
- Swashbucklers never floated for me since I like the backstab too much
- Bards... never really played much with them. I have HD in my party right now but all he does is cast minor spells and sing which he cannot even do properly.

So... as for my party thoughts
1. Goodaligned Necromancer Protagonist (dart staff), spells
2. Valygar (flail, katana), protection and healing
3. Nalia or Jan (dagger, bow or crossbow), thieving, secondary arcane
4. Cernd (staff), summoning, buffing
5. Jaheira (club, scimitar, longsword, dualwield), buffing, melee
6. Minsc/Keldorn (2-handed sword, halberds)

I'm a bit worried about the fact that I only have 3 real fighters and I don't even like the Minsc/Keldorn slot. I will probably make this a custom bezerker, barbarian or kensai instead. I prefer something with AC so it would be a bezerker... in which case I would take Korgan if he had two-handed weapons as profs (though level1NPCs may help me there).
I could probably kick the jan/nalia slot for a F/M instead too, but I am still undecided because these NPCs come with upgrades.
I could also change Cernd but I wanted to try out Auramasters so that will not be likely unless I don't like him anymore.

I am also hoping in this party that Valygar gets some good party healing spells because that is something I may be lacking mid-game until both druids level up. No greater restoration.... I could just take Anomen instead of Jaheira but I just prefer the latter. That will be a problem, I'm sure.

I was wondering what kind of ideas other people had. Any thoughts on nice combinations?

[Clown]

Been testing old v6 and the first thing I'd say is to take a riskbreaker in the party, I know you say you've played one before but they have a bunch of new abilities and are all round awesome, GM in longswords and hammers has you dual wielding The Truth and Crom by mid chapter 6 for the ultimate in frontline destruction. Really can't say enough good things about these bad boys.

Your choice of necromancer as protagonist is great as they have some cool new stuff and end up very powerful, plus the new content is great. To be honest you'd be a fool to play anything but this or a Vagrant on your first v6 run as you'd miss out on a lot of new content.

For the rest of the party I would go for this as the best in terms of power but obviously if your looking for something different try it out, but just a warning that v6 is tough.

Necromancer
Sorcerer(practically essential)
Riskbreaker
Valygar (Great new abilities, great tank)
Ranger/Cleric multi (Its all the divine magic you need and a very useful tank/frontliner)
Two-handed weapon user

The final slot you can go F/M, straight bezerker or what I've run in v6 with great sucess a Bez13>Mage. This will potentially leave you with either 3 very powerful mages and three warriors or using tensers 4 very powerful warriors and two mages depending on the situation.

Edit: Just though I would elaborate on the choices.

Necro- Probably best PC choice in terms of new content plus with all his new upgrades etc become probably the best arcane caster in the game.

Sorcerer- A second powerful arcane is good but the sorcerers ability to choose any spell when the level up is why I have picked one here. In IA 6 there are a lot of new spells which can be found in the game however they are very rare and hard to find therefore having a sorcerer is the only way to garuntee early acess to these powerful spells.

Valygar + Riskbreaker: These two just compliment each other so well, Valyagrs protector kit and powerful equipment allow him to reach very low AC making him a great tank while the riskbreaker provides insane offense. Combining his low AC, contact with nature and racial combat Valygar can stand in the middle of many late game melee's virtually unharmed. The riskbreaker on the other hand has a higher damage output than anything else and combing his new powerful abilities is suprisingly hardy in the later stages of the game.

Ranger/Cleric: As far as I see it there is little to be gained from spending more than half a character on cleric levels, this character will provide all the key buffs and healing you could need. In addition of course it provides a very capable warrior with exceptional tanking ability and fighter HLAs.

B13/M: This character to be honest was an experimet I wasn't sure would work in IA. The transition is tough but what you get at the end is a truely extraordinary character. With tensers he is every bit as good a fighter as your single class warriors with the same Thac0 and attacks but boasting a full set of mage buffs and spell protections which he can still refresh from scroll. Without tensers he gives you a third full power arcane caster only three levels below a your single class mage.

This post has been edited by Clown: Nov 11 2009, 02:07 PM

[lroumen]

That is a very nice analysis.

After keeping updated with the v6 topic I also came to the general conclusion that both the necromancer and valygar would be good additions to a party concerning new content.


Concerning the sorceress.
I find it a good way to obtain spells that you have to search for early in the game (spell shield, hand of undoing, that sort). However, as for utility I do not find them to be that much better than a normal or specialised mage.
If you pick the spells of your primary and secondary mage properly to complement each other (and overlap in some parts like breach if you want), you will hardly be pressed for spells that you have not memorised. Most utility spells I also cast from the tons of scrolls that are lying around after you defeat a mage, so late-game I am always lucky enough to have a supply of >10 ruby ray and breach scrolls to relieve my memorisation of those spells and they refill themselves quite well.
I also prefer to nalia or jan because then you have some thieving skills, you can use ranged weapons quite well and they come with upgrades that in my hands becomes better than the sorceress (as in more spells and thus no problems in what to memorise).


Concerning the Riskbreaker.
I first tried him out as secondary fighter and found he was weak. In my current game I am playing him as protagonist with a bit more thought out tactics and he is quite sturdy now that I have reached the mid-teens. So far no complaints, but I'll have to see how he fares in TOB. I can imagine the combination of the truth and cromfaeyr, but at the moment I am using adjathla the drinker and frostreaver until I can get my hands on a good blunt weapon. I find a Riskbreaker to be very good single-weapon style too in order to get in an extra chance for a critical. This is not important against the average foes, but against the bigger and tougher ones with high AC, that sometimes helps more than going two-weapon style.
I don't think you can go wrong with a riskbreaker in v6, but as I'm already playing one right now I will skip it for something else.


Concerning clerics.
I do not find it strange that you only have one cleric/ranger to do the healing for you since with a good playing style you will be negating foes from damaging you. Howver, sometimes in critical times I find it quite difficult to keep some characters alive if their buffs have been stripped effectively by the IA AI. So for me, I need a high level cleric that can cast greater restoration rather quickly and for an R/C you do need to wait quite a bit of time before he gets there. Would not an R/C dualclass be better? In that regard, they also get their holy symbol (nice bonus) far sooner and having many buffs, you do not really need the fighter HLAs (though contact with nature is nice).
In my party setup I do not have a cleric, which I find problematic because that greater restoration can become critical late-game. I think I will be better off if I switch Jaheira for a Ranger->Cleric and just miss out on the ring of wizardry. Do her minor quests and then boot her once I can get Cernd.


Concerning the two-hander
I find that I can never neglect two-handed weapons in IA. They are just too goodlooking.
I never thought about a F/M dual-class with tensers transformation actually. I am wondering though, if you use Tensers, do your spell sequencers and triggers still work? Because if you get stripped, they would be an easy way to replenish the buffs.
I'm guessing that you would use staves, two-handed swords and halberds. If you dual, you do not really get many proficiencies anymore, so I don't think you can max out more than one of the proficiencies and even then you cannot fill the others properly. Would you go with 2 in each (halberd, 2-handed sword, staves, two-handed-weapon-style) or max one (5 in staves), put one to 2 (sword or halberd) and keep the style at 1 (I don't think you can increase it to 2 once you get your fighter part back, correct?).

[Clown]

Concerning the sorceress:
I get your point here and yes Nalia or Jans items are nice but in v6 as opposed to v5 the sorceress brings much more to the party. Several key spell scrolls are substantially harder to get hold of than in previous games. In addition the new spells are very useful and one benefits substantially from being able to cast them as soon as they become available level wise something which in many cases is very unlikely to happen unless you have a sorcerer in the party. The NPC options you suggest have thier advantages but personally I wouldn't leave home without a sorcerer in v6.

Concerning the Riskbreaker:
Fair enough if your really not keen on playing one, I'm just a bit loved up over there v6 incarnation which is awesome. Bezerker with two weapon or two-handed style would probably be a good alternative plus being able to equip a shield and fight shoulder to shoulder with Valygar for a two man high AC shield wall could be handy.

Concerning Clerics:
This really is a matter of perference, I really rate the fighter/ranger HLAs as most of the cleric ones are rubbish plus the extra half attack and improved Thac0 is nice. But on the other hand there are plenty of good things to be said for the dual class.

Concerning the two-hander:
With this I went the GM route it takes a while and for some time you'll only have profeciencies in one or two damage types but for me the extra attack(2 under imp.haste) are really worth it, the extra attacks are one of the major advantages over a F/M. I don't think sequencers work under tensers but contingencies do and so does casting from scroll. In addition his buffs always last a good few rounds as you can affford to memorize and cast as many spell protections as you want under alacrity at the begining of a fight as chances are you won't need to use any other spells as by the time tensers has worn off most fights are over. The other real key point to remember with this guy is that unlike the F/M if you don't uses tensers he is a full mage only three levels so one spell slot behind your pure classes. Just don't forget he is mostly useles from mid-chapter 3 to end of the Underdark he is a very powerful build but you have to pay the price to get there.

This post has been edited by Clown: Nov 12 2009, 11:01 AM

[Vuki]

Clown, do you think that some extra HP and 1 attack per round worths the pain to reach level 14th after dualing the berserker? I think if you dual it at level 9th he still has good HP (on 10th level he gets even more as a mage [1D4+2 instead of 3]). THAC0 is the same (because of Tenser), only real difference is number of attacks.

[matti]

Concerning the Riskbreaker.
I first tried him out as secondary fighter and found he was weak. In my current game I am playing him as protagonist with a bit more thought out tactics and he is quite sturdy now that I have reached the mid-teens. So far no complaints, but I'll have to see how he fares in TOB. I can imagine the combination of the truth and cromfaeyr, but at the moment I am using adjathla the drinker and frostreaver until I can get my hands on a good blunt weapon. I find a Riskbreaker to be very good single-weapon style too in order to get in an extra chance for a critical. This is not important against the average foes, but against the bigger and tougher ones with high AC, that sometimes helps more than going two-weapon style.
I don't think you can go wrong with a riskbreaker in v6, but as I'm already playing one right now I will skip it for something else.

Hmm...I disagree. I actualy played riskbreaker in my IA 5 game and I must admit that Sikret was right saying he's the best fighter in the game if played well. And I'm saying about IA 5 here. Riskbreaker is the best damage dealer in the game imo, even in IA 5, amazing boss killer due to exellent crits. I read somewhere in the forums that he's one weapon proficiency in IA 5 is somewhat buggy (illegaly doubles chance for critical hit or something) so I play him (actualy her) with 2 weapons prof.

This post has been edited by matti: Nov 12 2009, 01:46 PM

[lroumen]

Hmm...I disagree. I actualy played riskbreaker in my IA 5 game and I must admit that Sikret was right saying he's the best fighter in the game if played well. And I'm saying about IA 5 here. Riskbreaker is the best damage dealer in the game imo, even in IA 5, amazing boss killer due to exellent crits. I read somewhere in the forums that he's one weapon proficiency in IA 5 is somewhat buggy (illegaly doubles chance for critical hit or something) so I play him (actualy her) with 2 weapons prof.

Well I actually agree with you that he is a very good fighter. My first run through I did not use the correct tactics and he basically ws no fun to play at all. Now in my current game I revamped my tactics based on previous experiences and he is doing quite a lot better.
I use his single weapon style exactly for the little extra bonus in criticals, but I did not know it was bugged. I will have to test it some more because I do not think he ever got one off below a roll of 15, so I cannot say that I ever found it to be wrong.


I will have to read some more on the new spells before I can make a decision on the sorceress/nalia/jan issue. I am not certain what the new ones bring so I might not miss them


About the F/M dualclass.
If you don't go for grandmastery you can dual sooner and deal with the loss of attacks per round without having much problems through spellhold. I will have to do some thinking on what I would prefer. Normally I do not tackle spellhold very early so it may not pose too much problems if I delay just long enough not to reach the cap and then your mage-part should have evolved sufficiently enough (I think).

[Vuki]

About the F/M dualclass.
If you don't go for grandmastery you can dual sooner and deal with the loss of attacks per round without having much problems through spellhold. I will have to do some thinking on what I would prefer. Normally I do not tackle spellhold very early so it may not pose too much problems if I delay just long enough not to reach the cap and then your mage-part should have evolved sufficiently enough (I think).

I guess you can be a grandmaster even if you dualed sooner. I am not completely sure but I think so. However I am sure that a ranger dualed to cleric can specialize in a weapon when he has access to his ranger class again. It could happen that the program handles dual class B->M as multi-class F/M and in that case no improvement is possible beyond specialization (of course after you changed the class to mage).

[Vuki]

Would you go with 2 in each (halberd, 2-handed sword, staves, two-handed-weapon-style) or max one (5 in staves), put one to 2 (sword or halberd) and keep the style at 1 (I don't think you can increase it to 2 once you get your fighter part back, correct?).

See my previous post: yes, you can for sure.

[Clown]

To Vuki and Iroumen:
For me the B13/M dual was an experiment to see if taking this character through IA was viable due to the long wait time, it turns out it is, its just tough to begin with. The end results as I have said are very impressive though this relies on both grandmastery and lvl 13. Tensers improves Thac0 only but not attacks therefore a level 9 dual with no GM has 4 attacks under IH where as the 13/GM has seven this is a very considerable difference especially using the powerful two-handed weapons. In the long run you sacrifice only one mage level for three extra attacks for me its a good trade especially as the really tough battles in IA come once this charater has matured. If however you tend to struggle in the early game of course don't use this character as it leaves you with only five viable characters through mid chapter 3 to chapter 6. Personally I think either the F/M or true class warrior beats the lvl 9 dual for power any way, though as always thats just my opinion.

[Vuki]

Tensers improves Thac0 only but not attacks therefore a level 9 dual with no GM has 4 attacks under IH where as the 13/GM has seven this is a very considerable difference especially using the powerful two-handed weapons.

Did you use the True Grandmastery (or whatsoever) mod? Standard GM does not improve number of attacks beyond specialization.

I tested the weapon proficiency system. A berserker dualed to mage can improve his skill beyond specialization when he reached the level where he gets back his berserker abilities. So, an 9th level berserker dualed to mage is able to learn weapon grandmastery.

This post has been edited by Vuki: Nov 12 2009, 06:53 PM

[lroumen]

Ah, thank you for the clarifications.

I thought the dualing system was similar to the multiclass system where you are stuck with up to 2 stars into proficiencies maximally. The multi-class grandmstery from EOU does allow 5 stars, but I never have that installed so I thought that if dualing equals multi, then you would not be allowed to put additional points past 2.

So if I understood it correctly, if you have 4 stars into a weapon and dual, after you have regained your fighter levels you can place a 5th into the slot. I thought that you were stuck with the 4 and would be unable to place additional stars. I have not played dualclassed fighters in a while (I never take anomen for instance) so I could not remember how it worked.

Best practice would be like this.
- I guess you start with 6 proficiencies.
--- It could be good to put staves to 5 and two-weapon style to 1 (you get a staff+1 in the dungeon).
--- It could also be okay to put staves to 4, style to 1, 2-handed sword to 1 (as you also get the sword of chaos in the dungeon).
- From there on, the next point for me would definately be to max staff or to put 1 into twohanded swords.
- You can then dual or level up to get another star which you can put into sword, style or halberd.
- When in mage, it's probably dagger, darts, slings until you get your fighter levels back since putting anything in staves will just be lost.
- Then once you are a full F/M again you can bump 2-handed swords and halberds to 2 stars each and maybe style to 1.
- Later on increase maybe spears to 2 or increase either 2-handed sword or halberd to 5.


True grand mastery I have installed as it is suggested, so the discussion about additional attacks is important.


I will think on this some more, but I find that I am already convinced to take along a fighterkit -> mage. Whether that is berserker, kensai (no rage, but more damage) or barbarian (no GM but different rage) is another matter.

[Sikret]

I think that even after you regain your fighter class abilities (after dualling to a mage), you will still gain proficiency points as frequently as a mage does. That means that you will gain one proficiency star at level 12 and another one at level 18. That's all. Don't count on more than two proficiency stars after ragaining your fighter class abilities. Note that I haven't tested this inside the game, but I guess that it works in this way. Please correct me if it works in a different way and if you can gain proficiency points more frequently than your second class allows.

[Shadan]

Yes, you are right, Sikret. F->M get w. prof. at every 6 six levels when he is a mage, but I think he gets slots at lvl 24 and 30 also.
I would do this:
F13 has 8 slots: 2* 2H swords, 5* halberds (you can buy Harmonium Halberd), * in 2H style (or 2* in style, 4* in halberds)
M13 after the dual class has 3 slots: * staffs, other 2* is irrelevant
as a mage you will get appr. 3 slots later (18, 24, 30), so end result:
2* 2H swords, 5* halberds, 3 * staffs, 2* in 2H style.
As a dual class mage, you can't use Golem Slayer as far as I know, so your best weapons in end game will be halberds. At start, you can use Sword of Chaos, later Lilalcor. After Underdark you will have good halberds. Spear is pointless if you can use halberds. End game weapons can be Poseidon, Dragon Lord as halberds, Warlord's Blade (you can chose good effects at this) as 2H sword , and Staff of the Ram or a new item from V6 as staff.

[Purifier]

Sikret is right about Fi/Mage proficiency points.

My current party:
Vagrant level 25 (14 points) – bastard, long,axe, club, flail – all 2, halberd 1, two weap 3
Berserker level 27 (13 points) – hammer, flail, two weap (next prof – halberd)
Riskbreaker level 27 (13 points) – club, long sw, two weap (next prof– bastard)
Berserker/Cleric 28/7 (15 points) – flail 5, mace 5, two weap 3, club 1, hammer 1
Berserker/Mage 23/7 (10 points) - long sword 5, two weap 2, staff 3
Berserker/Thief 30/7 (15 points) – scimitar 5, dagger 4, axe 2, club 1, two weap 3

I think about party composition for IA6:
1st run: Necromancer, Valygar, Riskbreaker, Berserker, Berserker/Cleric, Nalia
2nd run: Vagrant, Valygar, Riskbreaker, Berserker/Cleric, Berserker/Mage, Nalia

One dualed Fi/Cle is enough. I hate multiclasses but maybe this party is good too:
Vagrant, Valygar, Riskbreaker, Ber/Cle, Ran/Cle multi, Nalia (bad results of Wish spell but we need thief skills).

[critto]

I will think on this some more, but I find that I am already convinced to take along a fighterkit -> mage. Whether that is berserker, kensai (no rage, but more damage) or barbarian (no GM but different rage) is another matter.

I don't think you can dual from barbarian.

As a dual class mage, you can't use Golem Slayer as far as I know, so your best weapons in end game will be halberds.

There is also a Royal Elemental Staff available. Tough to forge, but a good choice for the end-game.

[Sikret]

Yes, you are right, Sikret. F->M get w. prof. at every 6 six levels when he is a mage, but I think he gets slots at lvl 24 and 30 also.

Thanks for the clarification, shadan!

I don't think you can dual from barbarian.

That's right. You can't dual from a barbarian.

[Vuki]

There is another trick if you want to use a warrior->x (x = any class). Do not level up when you get XP for your second class. Wait till you earn enough XP to get back your warrior class and then level up once. That way you can put the weapon proficiencies to your already existing warrior weapon proficiency. So, for example if you dual a ranger on 9th level to cleric then first you spend your 7 points as a warrior; spend you 2 points as a cleric (points you get as a first level cleric) and then you can spend your 2 cleric points (those you get on level 4th and level 8th) as a warrior (instead of spending them as a cleric). Of course in case of mage it worths less. It is also a big pain because your character is completely useless for quite a long period of time.

[Clown]

Getting such a late dual to work at all in the environment of IA is hard enough level squatting in the way you suggest Vuki would be insane.

As this character for me was all about late game power GM in halberds and staff(eventually) is essential otherwise to be honest its not worth the effort. Covering all the damage types well across the party is important but to be honest I think some people get too bothered about covering them for every character when maximising attacks would probably be more rewarding. A F/M is certainly better under most circumstances than an early dual or one who does not fully exploit his ability to gain GM in his weapon of choice.

[Vuki]

Getting such a late dual to work at all in the environment of IA is hard enough level squatting in the way you suggest Vuki would be insane.

I did not speak here a dual on 13th level as you did in your game. A dual on 9th level with delayed level up is possible and it is not so insane if you plan it carefully. If you finish some quests but not report them back then you have a lot of XP to level up your character. You can delay even 100k XP (per character) and that is really a big help.