Demons and Devils too weak? Options

[Frazurblu]

With all the great new monsters in IA it is a shame that the Ultimate bad guys have become pretty wimpy by comparison. After striving mightily to prevail against Ghost Spiders, Skeleton Lords and the new Golems the mighty Pit Fiend made an appearance in Spellhold. This Ultimate horror of Hell's 9th plane with his fear exuding multi melee psychic magic attack was dispatched in one round by somewhat prepared fighters. In the Planar Sphere the Demon's minions inspire more fear than they do as is the case even against the Demon Lords of Watchers Keep and even (gasp) Orcus.

Demogorgon is relegated to a footnote in Watchers Keep (the fortress built to house him!) surrounded by ultra and over powerful monsters. I personally think that he is not imprisoned at all but like an elderly citizen in his rent controlled apartment he has watched his neighbourhood go bad over the years and is now too petrified to step outside his front door! He has the gang banging orcs who just kill all day and the big dragon who wants to take over their turf right next door. And just upstairs he has the crack dealing illithids battling the meth dealing githyankis.We are talking about Demogorgon here !!! The Prince of Demons.

I realise that he is just an avatar of the real beast and therefore holds only a fraction of his power but that fraction should be plenty good enough to deal death and damnation to any adventuring party that plans on opening the great seal. Lets beef him up a bit so that attacking him is a real trial and thus get back to the situation that sealing him in becomes a reasonable option.

I think that the Balor in Underdark was an excellent fight but I did not notice that subsequent Balors were up to that level. Marilith's are tough adversaries but gain from numbers (alone these type 5's are meat) and the other Demons (for simplicity assume everything applies to devils too) are pretty generic and stupid foes. I think that more diversity in abilities and immunities would help as well as different tactics as opposed to having skeleton lord and grandlords do the heavy lifting. These guys should be the Grandlords! Demon's also dont gate in Skeletons they gate in ... more Demons. I think that there should be weak demons also , not all are powerhouses and I agree that not all Balor's , Marilith's , Glabrezu , Pit Fiends are created equal. However there are only weak Balors or Pit Fiends relative to each other they are the ruling elite of the lower planes and surely on the same level as Noble Rakshasas or Elemental Golems. Mariliths should be weaker than these but stronger than Glabrezus or Cornugons.

As a sidenote I believe that improving the power of Holy Word and Unholy Word spells is an idea worth pursuing.

I love the idea that forging Judgement day and gaining Daystar and Kitthix attract unwanted attention but perhaps forging The Truth should too as it is a weapon specifically designed to kill Demons. Perhaps something along the lines of "is it safe to rest?" whereby not so random monsters have a chance of a periodic visit.

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[Sir-Kill]

Demogorgon is relegated to a footnote in Watchers Keep (the fortress built to house him!) surrounded by ultra and over powerful monsters. I personally think that he is not imprisoned at all but like an elderly citizen in his rent controlled apartment he has watched his neighbourhood go bad over the years and is now too petrified to step outside his front door! He has the gang banging orcs who just kill all day and the big dragon who wants to take over their turf right next door. And just upstairs he has the crack dealing illithids battling the meth dealing githyankis.We are talking about Demogorgon here !!! The Prince of Demons.

hahaha good stuff!

[Sikret]

- Improving Demogorgon is in my To-Do list (but it has a very low priority for me, because I think that truly good-aligned parties will not fight demogorgon anyway and will prefer to follow the good path by sealing his prison).

- There are very few (if any) pit fiends in the game as far as I remember unless you cast Gate spell and summon them. Gate spells (both wizard and clerical versions of the spell) are replaced with other spells in v6. The same is done for all other spells which gate to demons.

- The reason Orcus gates to Skeltons and other types of undead creatures (rather than lesser demons) should be obvious. He is "Prince of the Undead".

- I don't think that The Demon Prince in JD quest is pathetic either.

- Of course there were still some demons in the game which were not improved in v5. Most of them are improved in v6 (those in the 3rd level of WK for example are improved in v6). But if you can recall any particular demon in the game except those you summon, let me know and I will improve them if I haven't already done.

- Adding a plot for "The Truth" sword is a nice idea. If you can design it in details, send your devised plot to me. Incidentally, designing new quests and battles is also one way to gain tactical reputation.

[Daulmakan]

Demogorgon is relegated to a footnote in Watchers Keep (the fortress built to house him!) surrounded by ultra and over powerful monsters. I personally think that he is not imprisoned at all but like an elderly citizen in his rent controlled apartment he has watched his neighbourhood go bad over the years and is now too petrified to step outside his front door! He has the gang banging orcs who just kill all day and the big dragon who wants to take over their turf right next door. And just upstairs he has the crack dealing illithids battling the meth dealing githyankis.

[Frazurblu]

Thank you for your reply Sikret and your corrections.

- I understand that Demogorgon is to be improved slightly in v6 and that there is a role playing aspect in good parties sealing him in rather than risk freeing him. However he is supposed to be the toughest enemy in the keep and is usually the pen-ultimate encounter in the unmodded game. I believe that it would be a great place for the epic divine encounter - you just replace the prince with him and add the same immunities. This allows players the option of facing a really tough test or not and I believe that it matches more with the overall consistency of the game story.

- The pit fiend I encountered was through the portal at spellhold guarded by the rakshasa and mephits. I think replacing demon summoning spells is a great idea as they have very little value anyway.

- I perhaps structured my points incorrectly in that I understand that Orcus should bring in Undead not demons. However he himself is not what people fear but his retinue. The demon in the planar sphere is a different story , woefully weaker than his minions who are Skeleton lords or grandlords depending on your level.

- I realise that the Judgment Day Demon prince (maybe we should give him a name) is far from pathetic (I don't think I referred to him as such) but again it is not so much him that causes problems but his buddies.

- The idea about the Truth was is that it will attract demonic/diabolic attention which will involve a % chance of lower planar encounter when resting in non-civilized settings. The visits will only stop when a specific boss is met and defeated . Also in fights the wielder will be targeted by pure demons/devils (not demon or death knights) in preference to all others. The sword may be strengthened to reflect this extra attention , perhaps by allowing the doom effect to bypass MR (with "the truth"s consent of course)

This post has been edited by Frazurblu: Oct 18 2008, 08:42 PM

[Sikret]

- I understand that Demogorgon is to be improved slightly in v6 and that there is a role playing aspect in good parties sealing him in rather than risk freeing him. However he is supposed to be the toughest enemy in the keep and is usually the pen-ultimate encounter in the unmodded game. I believe that it would be a great place for the epic divine encounter - you just replace the prince with him and add the same immunities. This allows players the option of facing a really tough test or not and I believe that it matches more with the overall consistency of the game story.

The overall consistency with pnp (which you mentioned) is actually the reason I have it in my To-Do list to improve demogorgon. However, as I have said before on more than one occasion, adding content for evil parties has a very low priority for me and should wait for future versions of the mod. In v6, I may improve him slightly, but the true improvement should probably wait for later versions.

EDE is not supposed to be optional. Its current location in the game is perfect (as it is the most difficult battle in the game). When I decide to improve demogorgon I will certainly improve him in a unique way (though he will still be weaker than the Rakshasa Prince as the latter is a greater god).

- The pit fiend I encountered was through the portal at spellhold guarded by the rakshasa and mephits.

Good spotting! I will check the portal. Thanks.

- I perhaps structured my points incorrectly in that I understand that Orcus should bring in Undead not demons. However he himself is not what people fear but his retinue. The demon in the planar sphere is a different story , woefully weaker than his minions who are Skeleton lords or grandlords depending on your level.

Well, Orcus has a different set of abilities than Skelton Grandlords. I'm pretty sure that Orcus can slay a Skelton Grandlord very easily. The relative power of each enemy depends on the situation you encounter them. He gates to 8 Skelton Grandlords against the party and this makes the situation difficult, but this doesn't mean that he has gated to a monster-type stronger than himself.

- I realise that the Judgment Day Demon prince (maybe we should give him a name) is far from pathetic (I don't think I referred to him as such) but again it is not so much him that causes problems but his buddies.

The same as above. The Demon Prince in JD plot is far more powerful than each of his buddies alone. The fact that he summons plenty of them leaves the impression that he is weaker than them. He isn't.

- The idea about the Truth was is that it will attract demonic/diabolic attention which will involve a % chance of lower planar encounter when resting in non-civilized settings. The visits will only stop when a specific boss is met and defeated . Also in fights the wielder will be targeted by pure demons/devils (not demon or death knights) in preference to all others. The sword may be strengthened to reflect this extra attention , perhaps by allowing the doom effect to bypass MR (with "the truth"s consent of course)

Well, when I said that you could send me your devised plot in details, I meant
"much more details" including every single enemy and their dialogue lines and tactics. And if you decide to devise it, send it to me in a PM not in a public post.

[Sikret]

Ok, just checked the protal in spelhold.

I will not only remove the weak demon, but will also improve the portal in a unique way. Sounds like a good opportunity to add another new feature to IA's Improved Spellhold.

Thanks again for drawing my attention to the portal, Frazurblu!

[matti]

The idea of the truth sword is similiar to the judgement day plot which is not a good thing coz it's similiar to daystar plot which is similiar to spider figurine plot. There's to (too?) much similiar plots here if you know what i mean. How's about that great warrior who once possessed this sword is back from i don't know another dimensions or something and he's changed coz he saw horrible things, visions of blood and mass destruction, hordes of demons destroying Fearun, you know this stuff. So he wants his sword back coz he must fight evil with it and if you don't give it to him he cast powerful spell creating two copies of him and they all start kicking your ass. Only one of them is true and you must kill this two copies to harm him. In the end (if you managed to defeat him) the dialog triggers (when he's in "near death" state) and you have three choices:
- redeem him and give him his sword (150 000 xp)
- redeem him and keep the sword to yourself (75 000 xp)
and of course
- kill him (50 000 xp and lost your vagrant abilities and items) ;F


And I agree that demons are too weak. Only two specific fights when they are hard (and imo in one of this fights they are too hard) the rest are as weak as babies. That Balor form Underdark...compared to this spiders...just a laugh.