"Philosophical" questions, What is a cheesy method? Bug or feature? Options

[nataben1314]

I talk to sikret in PM and he says I am OK to still post here, so I will try my best to redeem myself.

Of course the spell description also says that targetting with spells is forbidden in time stop, so I trust this particular cheat of targeting with spells in a timestop will be removed. Of course it is just a cheaters reading of the rules to say that casting targetted combat spells is allowed because they won't actually hit until the timestop is over. The rules clearly imply that this is not how the spell is intended. Note that it says that mages usually use the time stop for buffing, summoning, or fleeing, not unloading their attacking spells.

Of course its possibly to gerrymander a justification for allowing spell targetting in timestop based on the description, but its just as much a cheaters tactic as deliberately misreading the intent of the 2nd ed. description. Note too that the description says that you cannot even target others with a spell, so temporarily increasing resistances in the seconds after a timestop would not work because in such a situation they will still have been targetted with a timestop spell.

If engine limitations prevent timestop from being such that you can't target with spells in it, I would suggest removing this cheater spell from the game.

This post has been edited by nataben1314: Jan 27 2009, 03:40 PM

[Zarathustra]

IT just occurred to me that using missile weapons (including MMMs and Energy Blades) would remain perfectly possible if Sikret's modification consists of making time-stopped enemies immune to damage. The missiles, like spells, would only strike the target once time resumes its general flow. Is this true, and if so, is it Sikret's intention? Because even a single-class mage can do some decent damage with those Energy Blades - at least to certain enemies...

This post has been edited by Zarathustra: Jan 27 2009, 06:24 PM

[Sikret]

Yes, Zarathustra! Once the timestop's duration expires, they will take damage.

[nataben1314]

As you know I am against this change but I am curious nonetheless, why is one part of the cheat (targetting with spells) allowed but the other part of the cheat (melee) not allowed?

Seems to me that it should be all or neither, don't you think?

[Sikret]

As you know I am against this change but I am curious nonetheless, why is one part of the cheat (targetting with spells) allowed but the other part of the cheat (melee) not allowed?

Seems to me that it should be all or neither, don't you think?

That's already explained here and here. The vast majority of spells won't actually take effect during timestop and will remain in suspension waiting for the normal time flow to resume.

[nataben1314]

The spell description says that you cannot even target enemies with spells during a time stop.

Note too that in the very next sentence, the spell description states "A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends". Now, every spell "affects an area" in a a vacuous metaphysical sense, but clearly this is intended to rule out spells that target creatures versus area of affect spells. If every spell was meant to be able to be targetted and casted in the time stop, then the description would not make the "affects an area" statement.

The intent of the spell description is abundantly obvious. Making timestop not work for melee, yet still work for targetting spells would be to only block half of the cheat. Presumably (along the lines of what you have said earlier) legitimate players won't even notice the difference, since they would of course know the true intent of time stop and not use the cheat method of using targetting spells in a time stop.

[Sikret]

As I said, I don't think that spellcasting during timestop is a problem, because the (vast majority of) spells will remain in suspension waiting for the duration of timestop to expire and will not affect the target anyway. Read what I wrote in the posts which I gave the links to again (specially the second link, read item no.3 in that post).

[nataben1314]

I have read your posts, but I don't think they respond to my main point, which is that the spell is clearly intended to rule out targeting spells regardless of whether the spell only takes effect after the timestop is finished. How do you respond to that point?

The conceptual reason for ruling out targeting spells is identical to that of ruling out melee damage. Also with missile damage. Because if you allowed those things, timestop would just be an instakill spell. As others have said, it makes no sense to have a dragon attacking a frozen in time person and do only slashing damage. Similarly, in principle (i.e. if you think in common sense roleplay terms) if someone was in timestop a mage could just bombard them with spells that instantly kill them the second that time resumes before they had a chance to dodge or move or anything. As for missile damage, an archer could just take 25 shots directly at a person's neck, or any chink spot in their armor, and kill them instantly once time resumed.

My overall point is that the intent of the spell description is abundantly clear, and you seem to just be resting your reasoning on a technicality. If timestop melee is a cheat, then timestop spell targetting is too, and they should both be blocked (of course nobody who isn't a cheater already would notice this anyways as you say).

[Sikret]

Yes, I haven't based my reasoning merely on the spell's description in pnp. I have my own reasoning for it which has a lot in common with the spell's description in 3rd edition, but it's not completely identical with it. The point you made regarding missiles and ranged weapons is somewhat fair, but there is little I can do about it. The good thing, however, is that most bosses in the game are naturally well-protected against ranged weapons regardless of the timestop issue and can't be killed instantly even by a rain of missiles a mage (even an F/M) can shoot. An archer doesn't have access to timestop.

[nataben1314]

So if your reasoning for this is conceptual, yet you do not apply identical conceptual reasoning which would rule out targetting, then it seems sensible to conclude that one of two things is the case:

1) You think that timestop in melee is simply overpowered, and not a cheat Because if timestop in melee is a cheat, then the justification of spells hitting briefly after the timestop is over is, as I have established, just as much of a conceptual cheat and twisting of the spell description. In this case, it would be more respectful of your players intelligence to just say that you believe timestop/melee is overpowered and cannot be sensibly implemented into BG2, instead of calling it an "infamous cheat". A tactic being overpowered does not make it an "infamous cheat". If overpoweredness was enough to make something an "infamous cheat", then vagrants would be an "infamous cheat" kit.

or

2) you do think that timestop in melee really is a cheat, but you do not want to remove the other cheat (spell targetting in melee) simply because its a tactic you happen to enjoy using, so you keep it with a thin justification. I doubt this is it though, because Sikret is famous for hating cheats!

[LZJ]

Well, I think that Sikret's concept of Timestop could simply be that all other creatures are "frozen" and cannot be affected directly at all. This means that striking a "frozen" creature with a sword should not leave any wounds.

However, this would be different for many spells, because after the caster casts them, these spells are suspended in time as well, and only resume upon normal time. The same rationale should apply to attacking with projectile weapons... the projectiles are suspended/frozen after the caster fires them, and only hurt their target(s) after normal time resumes.

[Sikret]

Thanks, LZJ!

@nataben1314

It seems that you don't really read what I write, because I don't believe that my position in this matter is so difficult to understand. Stop trolling please.

[Mohina]

I think this is becoming a bit of a play on words, tbh. I certainly approve of the decision to remove it from IA6. However, like DavidW pointed out earlier, Melissan uses the same tactics/cheat. Are you planning on removing that too, Sikret?

[Gorwath]

I don't know if this could be implemented in the game but you could say that after attacking a monster in timestop you dispel the effect on that particular creature and so you have to fight it during your timestop. If this could be done you would only get one free hit at that creature and then you would be back to normal.

I hope everybody can understand what I mean...

[Sikret]

I don't know if this could be implemented in the game but you could say that after attacking a monster in timestop you dispel the effect on that particular creature and so you have to fight it during your timestop. If this could be done you would only get one free hit at that creature and then you would be back to normal.

I hope everybody can understand what I mean...

It's a nice idea, Gorwath. But unfortunately, there is a problem in implementing it. Creatures who are immune to timestop use a totally different kind of scripts in IA compared to those who are not immune. Now, if I want to implement your idea and make the attacked creatures immune to timestop (as soon as they are attacked), they will still behave suboptimally because of their inappropriate script-type. And I really don't have so much time to write two scripts for each creature so that he uses one of them when he is immune to timestop and uses the other one when he is not. It will take more than a year to implement it in that way.

[crunk]

There's one thing that I do a lot, and I was wondering if it is considered cheesy.

on fights where you get alot of room to work with, ie Kruin, Shadow Temple Liches, Sion's crew, etc. I like to draw aggro from a ton of melee enemies, pass that character my boots of speed, and run them in circles while the rest of my party deals with the remainder. If they switch targets, I toss the boots to the other guy and run them around more, and my old runner rejoins my original group.

Furthermore, I've found that the melee mobs choose a target maybe once per round, and if you have dragged them far enough, they will choose the same target (your guy with the boots on) So it sorta turns into like a starcraft fight where you're playing against some noob who sends like 15 zealots after 1 of your dragoons and you just run it in circles while the rest of your dragoons shoot the zealots down one by one.

Even against 1 very strong melee, ie mithril golem, I'm sure alot of people pull the 1 guy the mitrhil golem is targeting away and loop around your other party members who are just bashing away. The golem will chase you for a few seconds and get zero hits off. Then he switches targets, and you start to dance the other character. So, are these methods cheesy?

[Sikret]

Yes, I'm afraid, "hit&run" (or running in circles) is the worst of all cheesy methods in my book. See the "Cheat & Cheap" document in the "Academy of Tactics"; I have even listed it among the 'cheats' rather than 'cheap' tricks (though I've also explained that it could have been listed among cheesy methods as well).

Start trying not to run and find better tactics. It may be easier said than done at the beginning, but this is the very idea of drawing a learning curve to improve your tactical skills.

[crunk]

Ok I'll stop running around just to waste melee mobs' rounds because I have to admit, their retargeting is not very intelligent. But its ok to run a caster away to free him up to cast without getting spam cockblocked right?

I wasn't sure, because I play alot of RTS, hence the obscure actions per minute references. One of the staples of micromanagement in RTS is dancing your targeted/damaged unit around so enemies are forced to retarget another one of your other units. It's noobish to let one unit tank damage until it dies, instead of micromanaging and spreading the damage around. Spreading the damage also allows each mass cure to heal well over 120 dmg each, and each wonderous recall to be worth over 240 hit points recovered.

But it turns out, according to this particular game's creator's rules, "dancing" is the ultimate cheese, so I will weed it out in my next playthrough. I guess those healing potions and such are in the game for a reason. I do notice a rather huge stockpile, and next game I play I will be sure to deplete them instead of letting them gather dust.

Also, is it cheesy to cast SI:abj just to waste an enemy caster's round? For example ancient dragon, demilich, etc? Or is it considered "strategy"

I think your scripts all prioritize removing SI:abj even if it's not protecting any useful buffs. A very common thing I do vs strong casters is sit there with sorc and blade spamming SI:abj while the rest just whale on the idiot and all he does is cast ruby ray over and over. You can get maybe 10 rounds of freebashing, and even more if you throw in a mirror image in between (one at start, and once more 10 rounds later) to goad true sight castings, more than enough to kill anything.

[Kerkes]

@ Crunk

You're right about use of SI. From my gameplay experience, mages prioritise removing it, even if there are no other buffs present. I don't use it like that however, because practically every mage has a nasty Chain Contingency or a Trigger with 3x Lightning in it so there is real "use" in casting SI and keeping it up to protect your other protections from getting removed, even more so for Death Ward.
I wouldn't abuse it, even there are some battles which could be made easier if you did.

[Sikret]

Also, is it cheesy to cast SI:abj just to waste an enemy caster's round? For example ancient dragon, demilich, etc? Or is it considered "strategy"

If you cast a spell for the mere purpose of wasting the enemy's action in the next round, then yes, it is somewhat cheesy (though it's certainly not as cheesy as the discussed 'hit&run').

I think your scripts all prioritize removing SI:abj even if it's not protecting any useful buffs. A very common thing I do vs strong casters is sit there with sorc and blade spamming SI:abj while the rest just whale on the idiot and all he does is cast ruby ray over and over. You can get maybe 10 rounds of freebashing, and even more if you throw in a mirror image in between (one at start, and once more 10 rounds later) to goad true sight castings, more than enough to kill anything.

In v5, enemies give a very high prioirty to removing your SI (though some spells still have higher priority than that). In v6, the scripts have been generally improved a lot further so that enemy spellcasters behave more intelligently in deciding whether removing the SI is really needed at any given stage of the battle or not.