"Philosophical" questions, What is a cheesy method? Bug or feature? Options

[matti]

It's not a cheat at all. But giving creature resistance to weapon damage during timestop for sure is. When duration of the spell expired you're will be able to hurt this creature normally with the same weapon, I presume. This is an outrage. In my opinion it's unacceptable by any logical means. The mod looks just great with all this new quest and improvments but please, this is too much.

Yes, but mage uses his/her hands when casting spells, making gestures, etc. He/She may use his hands for wielding a weapon, instead of casting powerful spell during timestop mage whacks his enemy with his sword, what's wrong with it?

[nataben1314]

This is distressing indeed... I think that by the time IA v8 rolls around everything in the game will be disabled except melee, damage spells, disabling spells, buffing spells...

I for one will certainly not be upgrading to v6 it looks like... v5 has some problems but v6 is looking like too much changes for the worse, which sucks because the expanded druid stuff sounds extremely fun.

Whats ironic is that in disabling so much fun aspects of the game in the name of anti-cheese, you end up crippling the versatility of the game and thus let the cheesers win in a sort of way.

The best thing to do, of course, would be to leave semi-cheesy things in the game and let the player self-regulate. There is no good reason not to do this other than Sikret's odd personal quest to make the player forced to play the game exactly how he likes to play it.

This attitude is what is keeping IA a niche mod rather than the unanimously chosen best mod ever... so many aspects of it are brilliant but it bogs itself so far down with these "anti cheese" measures...

And please, don't say that this just means i'm "not a tactician" (which is just a meaningless term of abuse around here).

[Sikret]

Let me quote from my own post again:

Of course, players who play fair and without using any cheats or cheesy methods won't even notice the existence of such hidden anti-cheat features of the mod.

I think this paragraph hits the nail on the head of this discussion. If a player doesn't really intend to (ab)use those cheats and cheesy methods (no matter whichever term you prefer to use to refer to them), he has absolutely no reason to worry. But if a player thinks that those cheats and cheesy methods are some "fun aspects of the game", then this mod is not for him for sure and he is wasting his time here.

The "Progress report" thread is not for this type of discussions; we have other threads in the forum (such as the 'Philosophical questions' started by Vuki) which can be used for such discussions.

EDIT: All related posts moved to the "Philosophical" questions topic.

This post has been edited by Sikret: Jan 26 2009, 03:41 PM

[Baronius]

This is distressing indeed... I think that by the time IA v8 rolls around everything in the game will be disabled except melee, damage spells, disabling spells, buffing spells...

I for one will certainly not be upgrading to v6 it looks like... v5 has some problems but v6 is looking like too much changes for the worse, which sucks because the expanded druid stuff sounds extremely fun.

Whats ironic is that in disabling so much fun aspects of the game in the name of anti-cheese, you end up crippling the versatility of the game and thus let the cheesers win in a sort of way.

The best thing to do, of course, would be to leave semi-cheesy things in the game and let the player self-regulate. There is no good reason not to do this other than Sikret's odd personal quest to make the player forced to play the game exactly how he likes to play it.

This attitude is what is keeping IA a niche mod rather than the unanimously chosen best mod ever... so many aspects of it are brilliant but it bogs itself so far down with these "anti cheese" measures...

And please, don't say that this just means i'm "not a tactician" (which is just a meaningless term of abuse around here).

nataben1314, thanks for keeping your criticism within the scope of your forum account this time. Please keep it up for the future, it is unnecessary (and violates the Terms of Use as well) to use special fake accounts (such as the account called "whyohwhy" which we removed long ago, and it was used by you). We are as good in detecting alternative BWL accounts as Improved Anvil in detecting cheaters! Furthermore, it is really silly to believe that using www.anonymouse.org for alternate BWL accounts is a good idea. This is directed to everyone who prefers using such methods -- please don't do it. Thanks!

I usually act as a technical (and not as a tactical) advisor regarding Improved Anvil, but there are things I find quite obvious and would like to emphasize. First of all, some players are very self-confident when stating that something which restricts players is necessarily wrong. They find it so obvious and natural. Their reasoning is usually the following:

(1) "those who cheat or play cheesily will do it anyway; while others who don't like cheats/cheese will not do it -- consequently, there is no need for anti-cheat methods".

Additionally, they often add that

(2) "everyone should enjoy the game in the way he prefers it -- if it is with cheats or cheese, then it's his or her call; it should not be prevented".

These statements are not baseless, but they follow a very black & white approach (I bet some people are surprised now, because they think it's exactly Improved Anvil which follows a black & white approach ). It is black & white, because it assumes that every player is completely determined and has no weaknesses at all.

We are humans, and we have weaknesses and doubts. For example, when there is an easier solution for a problem, do we choose the more difficult one? Not typical! It is natural that we choose the easier one, and we don't feel that we would be cheaters! Does this mean that if only a difficult solution exists, we retreat and give up?! No! And from this more difficult solution, we learn much more than from an easier solution. Yet, we usually prefer the easier solution even if the harder solution would give more experience and knowledge! (Principle of minimum energy ) On the other hand, if we're forced to do something in a difficult way, we have no other choice than doing it (we cannot choose an easier solution), and at the end, it has two very positive results:
(1) We learnt from something, we improved ourselves; from something which we would not have done if we hadn't been forced to do it.
(2) The feeling of success after hard work, after a challenge.

Consequently, the "self-regulation" suggested by nataben1314 (and some others) has its drawbacks as well. When humans are not forced to do something, they won't do it. It doesn't mean they cheat. On the other hand, if they are forced, they may accept it and at the end, it may prove to be very fruitful to them! Would university students study for themselves if there were no mid-term tests and closed book exams? Most of them wouldn't! Yet, at the end, they become engineers, doctors, economists etc.

Improved Anvil includes difficult battles (which need good tactical basics and require the player to constantly improve his or her tactical skills), and it applies anti-cheese and anti-cheat methods. The first one is obvious -- there is no improvement (and satisfaction) without learning and hard work! The second one makes sense as well, as it says a message to cheaters: "no, this mod is not for you if you want to cheat. If you want to enjoy it, you need to play fair and according to the strict rules of this mod!" This can even change the mind of some cheaters, who realize that "hey, I don't need these cheap solutions, I want to be as good as Raven, thetruth, etc."! Yes, Sikret strongly prefers a certain playing style in Improved Anvil, but he is the author of the mod, so he has all right to prefer (i.e. positively discriminate) that style in his own work!

So those players who think that restrictions are necessarily wrong should reconsider their approach.

Whats ironic is that in disabling so much fun aspects of the game in the name of anti-cheese, you end up crippling the versatility of the game and thus let the cheesers win in a sort of way.

"It closes many possibilities of the original game and disables fun..." is also something that I heard about Improved Anvil a few times (including nataben's present post). Again, this is not as obvious either as certain players think. As we know, rules always restrict something; there are no rules that increase freedom -- they always decrease it in a closed system. But there would be chaos and anarchy without rules -- they are required. Improved Anvil is the most challenging and powerful tactical IE mod (and much more than just a tactical mod, of course), and this difficulty (its urge for players to improve their tactical skills) must be implemented in some way. Rules are required. Without rules and restrictions, there would be no tactical challenges, no improvement. So while some (well-known, often cheesy) possibilities of the original game are closed, Improved Anvil opens a lot of new possibilities as well!

To sum up, just because you don't know about a particular possibility (e.g. a certain tactic), it doesn't mean that it does not exist! "I can't do a lot of things in Improved Anvil that I could do in the original game -- Improved Anvil disables so much fun!" -- this is a very very incorrect approach. It is natural that people want to use the good old' methods they learnt, so it is not a shame that new players want their good old' tactics in Improved Anvil -- but they must realize that they should discover the new possibilities of Improved Anvil and possibly develop new tactics! Sikret emphasized this countless times. Players should realize that Improved Anvil allows them to become the best tacticians of all Infinity Engine games and mods! This means that they can easily win any other tactical mod, so the experience and tactics they learn in Improved Anvil can be applied not only in Improved Anvil!

All in all, I think Improved Anvil makes the game more versatile (as opposed to what nataben1314 says), but players must discover the new possibilities and stop trying to search for their well-known old playing tricks!

So, nataben1314 (or shall I call you whyohwhy/temujin) I think that you are too narrow-minded, which is enough to completely prevent you from becoming a real tactician... However, it is never late to change your mind If you like the mod (which I assume you do, otherwise you wouldn't write so much about it), you need to defeat your own limits. That is, instead of trying to convince Sikret (in various forums and with various accounts), you should try to convince yourself.

[Sikret]

Their reasoning is usually the following:

(1) "those who cheat or play cheesily will do it anyway; while others who don't like cheats/cheese will not do it -- consequently, there is no need for anti-cheat methods".

Additionally, they often add that

(2) "everyone should enjoy the game in the way he prefers it -- if it is with cheats or cheese, then it's his or her call; it should not be prevented".

Well, in addition to the good points Baronius made, I have already replied to both arguments countless times. The rebuttal of the first argument can be found in this post of mine. Quote:

This argument alone is not convincing to me. If I was supposed to take this argument as something convincing, I shouldn't have fixed any other exploits in the game, but I have blocked lots of them. I can go even further and say that if I was thinking that this argument was convincing, I wouldn't have even fixed most of the vanilla game bugs I have fixed in IA. Let me give you an example:

If you play the game without IA, Boots of Speed can be exploited in a particular way. The boots bonus to speed could stack with the speed bonus of (Improved) Haste, resulting in a character with quadruple speed. I have fixed this bug in IA even though the statement that "cheaters can cheat anyway" is still true and a cheater who wants to have a character with quadruple speed can still use editors to give the (x4) speed to his character. Nonetheless, the fact that a cheater can cheat this way or the other didn't stop me from fixing the bug.

The same is true for every bugfix and exploit-fix in the game. Cheaters will always have ways to undo your bugfixes or exploit-fixes and to re-create those bugs and exploits in their games (the easiest method can sometimes be deleting files from the override folder), but this fact doesn't provide any valid argument for not fixing bugs or exploits.

If there are still n ways to cheat xp in the game, it can't be a wrong decision to block one of them and to leave the cheaters with n-1 ways to cheat.

The answer to the second argument has been spread in my various posts; just some quotes:

The point is that when you agree to play a mod, you agree to play it the way it is intended to be played. This is the minimum respect a player can show towards the mod's creator for all the time and energy he has put to create the mod.

Of course, I agree that even cheating is a matter of personal preference but only if the player plays for himself and doesn't show up here in these forums

In other words, I can't really prevent a cheater from cheating inside his own house and while playing on his own computer, but the cheater also can't come here to tell me how to make my mod or to glorify his illegal victories by lying and pretending that he has won the game without cheating. I can easily detect when someone cheats while playing IA and I keep my mod's forum clean of such false reports and bluffs (fortunately, so far we had only one such liar here around).

So while some (well-known, often cheesy) possibilities of the original game are closed, Improved Anvil opens a lot of new possibilities as well!

Quite true.

players must discover the new possibilities and stop trying to search for their well-known old playing tricks!

Well said!

[Baronius]

It is interesting that when you justify your decisions in a general, comprehensive way (like in your above posts and in the posts you linked to), none of those people who criticize Improved Anvil in terms of anti-cheat reply anything. They only keep repeating the same things ("oh no, one more thing blocked by Improved Anvil") each time they find a concrete element of the mod they can criticize. I hope they will realize that they might also be wrong, and they should reconsider their viewpoint (if they intend to play the mod).

Since I made several points in my previous posts, the most important thought regarding "self-regulation" might have not got enough attention. I will summarize it again: those who prefer self-regulation by all means assume that people are always capable of correct self-regulation. No, that is not true. Human mind is not simple. It often happens that you wouldn't do something if you weren't forced to do it, but then you feel satisfied and/or happy when it's done! (despite the fact that you didn't do it of your own free will).

[Hoppy]

Improved Anvil requires a lot of patience and time as Sikret forewarns in the Readme of IA ever since the beginning version, I would assume. Some players may get disturbed at the increased amount of time to complete the game compared to the regular ToB game. For me, if I get overly frustrated at a video game, I don't play it for a week or more, or even quit playing it all together. That is too much time to be consumed (for me) and then I don't get the satisfaction of:

(1) We learnt from something, we improved ourselves; from something which we would not have done if we hadn't been forced to do it.
(2) The feeling of success after hard work, after a challenge.

what Baronius wrote and I have seen Sikret justify the same concept although maybe not the exact same words.

Although the above points are very true, they do not necessarily apply to everyone that plays this game/mod or any other game for that matter. Some players play BGII (or video game of choice) for relaxing benefits and or "cool downs" just like other hobbies. They may get too angry at IA and then have negative opinions towards Sikret or IA. We're only human and sometimes we misjudge out of frustration or anger.

IA has fantastic and brilliant scripting with mages where there is no slowdown in spell triggers or contingencies. Even with all of the classes for that matter. The attitudes of the enemies really make sense like thieves will not try to backstab a Barbarian over and over like in the original game. That kind of thing and other similar scripting actions bring IA to the realm of "making sense" in any form of combat.

IA has a very "fast thinking" playing style and may not be satisfying to some looking for a more relaxed game atmosphere. It just takes too much patience for me and it is not for my casual game playing. Maybe I speak for others of the same mindset...I don't know

[nataben1314]

nataben1314, thanks for keeping your criticism within the scope of your forum account this time. Please keep it up for the future, it is unnecessary (and violates the Terms of Use as well) to use special fake accounts (such as the account called "whyohwhy" which we removed long ago, and it was used by you). We are as good in detecting alternative BWL accounts as Improved Anvil in detecting cheaters! Furthermore, it is really silly to believe that using www.anonymouse.org for alternate BWL accounts is a good idea. This is directed to everyone who prefers using such methods -- please don't do it. Thanks!

I create DL (this was lonnnnng time ago) to criticize IA because I fear something exactly like this... you get bullied and intimidated (which is exactly the purpose of this comment... you would PM me otherwise) if you criticize it and treated unwelcomly (unless the "criticism" is "encounter x isnt difficult enough!" or "spell y is overpowered game breaking cheesy cheat!").

I'm really sorry for making a DL but I had to worry that exactly this would happen... you suddenly find yourself extremely unwelcome if you criticize the mod, and I'm guessing that nothing short of "gee I was so wrong... please forgive me, oh and please remove abilities x y and z from the game because they are game breaking cheesy exploit cheats!" will restore my standing so oh well...

Anyways, I'm sure you want to get in another word about this so you can "one up" me but I will not comment on this further...

These statements are not baseless, but they follow a very black & white approach (I bet some people are surprised now, because they think it's exactly Improved Anvil which follows a black & white approach ). It is black & white, because it assumes that every player is completely determined and has no weaknesses at all.

We are humans, and we have weaknesses and doubts. For example, when there is an easier solution for a problem, do we choose the more difficult one? Not typical! It is natural that we choose the easier one, and we don't feel that we would be cheaters! Does this mean that if only a difficult solution exists, we retreat and give up?! No! And from this more difficult solution, we learn much more than from an easier solution. Yet, we usually prefer the easier solution even if the harder solution would give more experience and knowledge! (Principle of minimum energy ) On the other hand, if we're forced to do something in a difficult way, we have no other choice than doing it (we cannot choose an easier solution), and at the end, it has two very positive results:
(1) We learnt from something, we improved ourselves; from something which we would not have done if we hadn't been forced to do it.
(2) The feeling of success after hard work, after a challenge.

Consequently, the "self-regulation" suggested by nataben1314 (and some others) has its drawbacks as well. When humans are not forced to do something, they won't do it. It doesn't mean they cheat. On the other hand, if they are forced, they may accept it and at the end, it may prove to be very fruitful to them! Would university students study for themselves if there were no mid-term tests and closed book exams? Most of them wouldn't! Yet, at the end, they become engineers, doctors, economists etc.

Improved Anvil includes difficult battles (which need good tactical basics and require the player to constantly improve his or her tactical skills), and it applies anti-cheese and anti-cheat methods. The first one is obvious -- there is no improvement (and satisfaction) without learning and hard work! The second one makes sense as well, as it says a message to cheaters: "no, this mod is not for you if you want to cheat. If you want to enjoy it, you need to play fair and according to the strict rules of this mod!" This can even change the mind of some cheaters, who realize that "hey, I don't need these cheap solutions, I want to be as good as Raven, thetruth, etc."!

Very eloquent, but if you stepped back for a second you'd see how odd this sounds. IA drastically diminishes the versatility in BG2 because it wants to be your loving grandparent, holding your hand and keeping your will strong so that you might become a great tactician!!! This is not very convincing. While anti-cheat measures are fine to me (I dont know much about this but according to you mod authors, it can bug entire games to cheat so I can see why an author would avoid this), the idea that any ability that can even in principle be used cheesily should be removed from the game is just ludicrous. It goes too far. This is what happens when your testing team consists only of super "tacticians"

Whats even more glaring is the fact that if you want IA to be the ultimate tactician mod... you are doing yourself a disservice to remove every ability from the game except a small set... BG2 does not have the strategic depth to allow such a small set of abilities to be tactically fertile. This is why all the "tacticians" in IA are just people who've played it over and over, since "tactics" boils down to "memorizing immunities and resistances so you know what to exploit in the next battle".

Yes, Sikret strongly prefers a certain playing style in Improved Anvil, but he is the author of the mod, so he has all right to prefer (i.e. positively discriminate) that style in his own work!

This is a silly trump card... of course sikret is free to do what he wants, I just wanted to suggest that the mod isn't reaching its full potential. Again this straman and making me feel unwelcome or something...I've said over and over this is my favorite BG2 mod and is so well designed in some areas its scary... I just feel like these decisions about "cheese" are relegating IA to a tiny niche area.

So those players who think that restrictions are necessarily wrong should reconsider their approach.

I never said they are necessarily wrong... stop erecting a strawman. I am just saying that drastically decreasing the number of viable playstyles in the name of anti-cheese essentially just lets the cheesy players ruin it for everyone. There are certain things that can ONLY be used cheezily. For example, fake talk is just an exploit and there is no doubt about that. However, IA ruins many things that can be used perfectly legitimately by most players.

I suspect a lot of players feel this way about IA... but people are afraid to say anything because of how unwelcome you make us feel.

"It closes many possibilities of the original game and disables fun..." is also something that I heard about Improved Anvil a few times (including nataben's present post). Again, this is not as obvious either as certain players think. As we know, rules always restrict something; there are no rules that increase freedom -- they always decrease it in a closed system. But there would be chaos and anarchy without rules -- they are required. Improved Anvil is the most challenging and powerful tactical IE mod (and much more than just a tactical mod, of course), and this difficulty (its urge for players to improve their tactical skills) must be implemented in some way. Rules are required. Without rules and restrictions, there would be no tactical challenges, no improvement. So while some (well-known, often cheesy) possibilities of the original game are closed, Improved Anvil opens a lot of new possibilities as well!

To sum up, just because you don't know about a particular possibility (e.g. a certain tactic), it doesn't mean that it does not exist! "I can't do a lot of things in Improved Anvil that I could do in the original game -- Improved Anvil disables so much fun!" -- this is a very very incorrect approach. It is natural that people want to use the good old' methods they learnt, so it is not a shame that new players want their good old' tactics in Improved Anvil -- but they must realize that they should discover the new possibilities of Improved Anvil and possibly develop new tactics! Sikret emphasized this countless times. Players should realize that Improved Anvil allows them to become the best tacticians of all Infinity Engine games and mods! This means that they can easily win any other tactical mod, so the experience and tactics they learn in Improved Anvil can be applied not only in Improved Anvil!

All in all, I think Improved Anvil makes the game more versatile (as opposed to what nataben1314 says), but players must discover the new possibilities and stop trying to search for their well-known old playing tricks!

So, nataben1314 (or shall I call you whyohwhy/temujin) I think that you are too narrow-minded, which is enough to completely prevent you from becoming a real tactician... However, it is never late to change your mind If you like the mod (which I assume you do, otherwise you wouldn't write so much about it), you need to defeat your own limits. That is, instead of trying to convince Sikret (in various forums and with various accounts), you should try to convince yourself.

so to sum up, if you dont like any aspect of the mod it simply cannot be because there is any flaw with the mod. The mod is perfect and not open to any substantive criticism. If you do not like any aspect of the mod, it must be because you "are not a tactician" (I swear the word "tactician" is thrown around here in such a ludicrous way that its almost hilarious). I'll let that speak for itself...

ps: I have no idea who temujin is... whyohwhy is the only DL I made and I dont have accounts at other forums besides sorcerers place which my nick there is nataben1314, and where I've always said good things about IA and recommended it to people.

anyways, I have officially been "outed" as an IA-criticizer so there is little place left for me here and I am destined to be treated inferior/unwelcome... I will definitely still download IA when I get my new computer and may even try v6... Sikret I want you to know this is still IMO the best mod ever for BG2 and you have done such a great job... I'm sorry for criticizing any aspect of it and I will now just lurk here for info but not post... thanks for all your effort and thanks to baronius too for the hosting and everything... this mod for all the flaws I think it has still blows stuff like tactics and SCS2 out of the water.

[Sikret]

the idea that any ability that can even in principle be used cheesily should be removed from the game is just ludicrous.

It's not ludicrous; it's exactly the main idea behind blocking cheesy methods, because all such abilities which can be used cheesily have the nature of being in principle cheesy. In other words, all such abilities can be used legitimately as well; but the fact that they can also be used cheesily is enough reason to either find a workaround to block their cheesy use and only keep their legitimate use if possible (this is what I have done with timestop and UAI) or to remove them from the game entirely (and this is what I've done with Mislead and Project Image). However, as Baronius mentioned correctly, Improved Anvil doesn't merely remove abilities and possibilities from the game; it also adds lots of new and non-cheesy abilities to the game. One should be careful not to limit his vision to the removed ones but also see the new possibilities added to the game.

This is what happens when your testing team consists only of super "tacticians"

IA's testing team are indeed a group of very skillful and competent tacticians; this powerful team of testers can make sure that no bug will remain undetected before the public release of the mod and also ensure that the battles are doable with non-cheesy and legitimate tactics and possibilities existing in the game (including those new possibilities IA adds to the game).

Whats even more glaring is the fact that if you want IA to be the ultimate tactician mod... you are doing yourself a disservice to remove every ability from the game except a small set... BG2 does not have the strategic depth to allow such a small set of abilities to be tactically fertile.

No, as I said above, IA doesn't merely remove this or that ability from the game; it also adds lots of new abilities and possibilities to the game. You are overcriticizing because you don't have enough information about the mod. Instead of trying to find out and learn the new possibilities IA adds to the game you just see the removal of those old (and cheesy) abilities.

This is why all the "tacticians" in IA are just people who've played it over and over, since "tactics" boils down to "memorizing immunities and resistances so you know what to exploit in the next battle".

This is again baseless talk and even an insult to IA-testing team. Among my testers there are great tacticians who can find the right tactics to win a battle even the first time they play it. In v6, I have added some very new and hard battles and my testers managed to find the right tactics to win those battles without needing to reload or to "memorize immunities". This is exactly why (contrary to what you believe) the term "tactician" is neither meaningless nor hilarious. Start to learn and improve your tactical skills and you will hopefully start to see for yourself.

Of course, playing the mod over and over will certainly polish a player's tactical skills in a general sense, but it doesn't mean that for every single battle, they will need to reload it countless times to find out and memorize how the battle should be won. Once a player's tactical skills are improved, he will learn how to find the right tactics in action without relying on meta-knowledge.

I've said over and over this is my favorite BG2 mod and is so well designed in some areas its scary... I just feel like these decisions about "cheese" are relegating IA to a tiny niche area.

IA is aimed at the following types of players (either group can enjoy IA):

- Veteran BG2 players and competent tacticians who already know how to play without cheats and cheap methods and are looking for great challenges as well as new content in the game.
- Players who are looking for a stable and bugfree big mod full of new quests, tactical challenges and all sorts of new content without having to worry about bugs; such players even if not very skilled tacticians are ready to draw a learning curve and start to improve their skills.

IA has never been aimed at other types of players. If you like the mod (as you say that you do), why don't you try to be a member of the second category? You will start to learn and will enjoy playing the mod, I assure you of that.

[Baronius]

nataben1314: let's forget the past then, now you use this account and it's fine. As opposed to the misbelief spread by certain internet users, BWL doesn't sanction anyone just because the user has a different opinion than the BWL mod developers and/or Council Members. There is no censorship, but content/editor guidelines exist (Sikret has a very nice summary about it here.) All in all, everyone is free to express his or her opinion (additionally, tactful wording is recommended, because otherwise the mod author might get a negative impression and won't be helpful). However, as I said, forum moderators (mod authors) are editors as well, so they may decide to ask a user to stop a discussion, if it brings no novelties to the discussion (e.g. the user repeats the same things again and again, or posts content that may mislead the readers of the mod's primary forum). That is, if a discussion is not fruitful according to the editor (moderator), the editor can stop it, and possibly filter the final content of the topic (e.g. move certain parts or the whole discussion to a different forum). In this case, if a user does not respect this decision of the editor, it means the user is violating forum rules (and will be warned). To sum up, don't be afraid to write your opinion at any time in an open discussion (or you can even start own discussions -- the "philosophical questions" thread is such an example -- unless the discussion type in question is restricted by the moderator).

Edit: (it doesn't deserve full size font, just a note) I decided to spend 2-3 minutes for it and visited a few topics of the G3 forum. When I have assumed you were "temujin", I thought it due to the similarities in the statements (e.g. he also said he had originally liked Impoved Anvil, but then for x, y and z reasons, he changed his mind; he also said something like "it is just a niche mod, but...", he used the same greeting formulas etc.) However, after that, I didn't encounter too many posts from him for a long time (unsurprisingly, also because I wasn't really looking for them lol), but now that I checked G3, I see that he can't be the same person as you (he really needs to visit a psychiater or psychologist, based on what I saw there). On the other hand, I had no doubts about you/whyohwhy: that time, out of curiosity, I asked some accurate information and the two accounts led to the same customer of the same ISP (maybe wavecable?). This may sound as an overkill, but we at BWL, admittedly, don't like when people register from secondary accounts for unacceptable reasons (this is why the Terms of Use prohibit it too)

Improved Anvil requires a lot of patience and time as Sikret forewarns in the Readme of IA ever since the beginning version, I would assume. Some players may get disturbed at the increased amount of time to complete the game compared to the regular ToB game. For me, if I get overly frustrated at a video game, I don't play it for a week or more, or even quit playing it all together. That is too much time to be consumed (for me) and then I don't get the satisfaction of:

(1) We learnt from something, we improved ourselves; from something which we would not have done if we hadn't been forced to do it.
(2) The feeling of success after hard work, after a challenge.

what Baronius wrote and I have seen Sikret justify the same concept although maybe not the exact same words.

Although the above points are very true, they do not necessarily apply to everyone that plays this game/mod or any other game for that matter. Some players play BGII (or video game of choice) for relaxing benefits and or "cool downs" just like other hobbies. They may get too angry at IA and then have negative opinions towards Sikret or IA. We're only human and sometimes we misjudge out of frustration or anger.

Exactly. Sikret stated countless times that Improved Anvil is not for everyone. Perhaps I should have mentioned that not everyone can complete the "hard work" and "challenge" I mentioned. Either because the player has no patience and persistence, or simply even doesn't want to try it (because he or she is looking for a more relaxing type of IE mod, with easy battles, romances etc.)

It is a very incorrect decision to criticize a complex mod before you've actually played it to the end. It is certainly not forbidden (at BWL), but discouraged -- especially in case of Improved Anvil. It is like criticizing a book before reading it to the end. Yes, I know that if the reader feels "I can't enjoy this, this book is not for me" after the first 5-20 pages, he or she shouldn't keep reading the book. In case of a mod, this means that the mod is not for him or her and should not be played further. However, if the mod is much fun but has some disadvantages according to the player, the player is advised to play the mod for a longer time (preferably, to the end) before jumping into conclusions about it. Without playing a complex mod to the end, there is no way to discover its new possibilities. (And all or most of the new possibilities can only be found after more walkthroughs of the mod).

This post has been edited by Baronius: Jan 25 2009, 04:00 PM

[lroumen]

My condolences to all cheaters and cheesy players! A lot more hidden anti-cheat utilities are added to the mod. As an example, the major golems and many other important bosses in the game will be bullet-proof against the infamous timestop-melee cheat. You will have to stand and fight like a man, I'm afraid!

How am I to interpret this update (Here)?
1. They are immune to melee damage before being talked to (which seems okay)

or

2 They are always immune to melee during timestop (which makes little sense to me)

This post has been edited by lroumen: Jan 26 2009, 10:20 AM

[Raven]

It's not a cheat at all. But giving creature resistance to weapon damage during timestop for sure is. When duration of the spell expired you're will be able to hurt this creature normally with the same weapon, I presume. This is an outrage. In my opinion it's unacceptable by any logical means.

In the past I have used Timestop + melee to great effect in BG2.

Having said that I don't disagree with the decision to block melee damage inflicted during Time Stop (incidentally I had nothing to do with the decision). I seem to remember descriptions of the Time Stop spell in the earlier versions of D&D being unclear about what exactly the caster could do as far as inflicting damage on his enemies goes during TS; a strict interpretation I think would prevent the caster affecting enemies at all during a TS. This is certainly the case in more recent D&D versions (see here for instance).

[DavidW]

I've no idea whether the timestop trick counts as "cheap/cheese" (I actually think the meaning of those terms varies a lot from person to person). And (if memory serves) it's actually used by the vanilla-game AI (Melissan, and I think Demogorgon, use it).

There's a good case that it's very unrealistic, though. If your character is actually allowed to attack enemies in melee while they're frozen in time, it's not clear why you do normal damage rather than just being able to cut their throats - which, I guess, is why it wouldn't be allowed in PnP. Shooting arrows might be a different matter though.

I was tempted to use it for one of the dragons in SCSII, and was put off by thoughts of how unrealistic it is that a 60-foot dragon has 18 seconds to maul you while you're held motionless, and you only take normal slashing damage!

This post has been edited by DavidW: Jan 26 2009, 12:00 PM

[Shadan]

I dont't think Time Stop+melee is a cheat, so I agree with Zarathustra. I have never used this in IA anyway for several reasons:
1. I have only F/I in my 4.2 run, and he got TS too late. Single class mages cannot attack efficiently and I didn't plyed multi or dual class mages in my v5 runs.
2. When I had TS with good melee character, most important enemies were immune to TS so it was pointless to use it against them.

I don't think as a cheat, but I agree with this change since it is good for classbalance imho. F>M and F/M become less powerful. However with this change maybe you should delete TS immunity from more enemies. I tried TS several times and I found too many enemies were immune to TS in v5, so I stopped to try and use it. It would be welcome if I could use TS with my mages more times effeciently, IF I cast spells only during the TS.

[Shaitan]

Yes I gotta agree with Sikret and others: TS really works in mysterious ways - calling it unrealistic is probably right. If I recall my old PnP my GM only allowed for spells during TS. And as David says in a TS a hit with a sword or the like IMO should hit as a vorpal hit - just let the picture remain in your head for a while and it seems ridiculous (sp?) to allow melee in TS.

[Sikret]

My reasons for calling timestop-melee "a cheat" can be summarized as follows:

1- No reasonable DM would allow it in a pnp game.

2- It has practically no difference with ctrl-Ying the enemy (it's actually even worse than ctrl-Y, because with ctrl-Y, you won't gain the xp of killing the enemy at least)

3- It inflicts damage while the time is frozen which is not what timestop has been originally designed for (along with the lines of what Raven has pointed out above). Taking damage requires time. How can a creature take damage while the time is frozen for him? The spells you cast on him remain in suspension and wait for the normal time flow to take effect. Physical attack, on the other hand, takes place immediately which doesn't make sense at all. Remember that timestop is not "power word stun"; it hasn't stunned the creature; it has halted the flow of time for him.

Moreover, I have also modified vanilla scripts such as SHOUTDLG to require the normal time progress to turn true (such scripts will turn false while the time is frozen). This is very important for those enemies who are immune to Time Stop and have a dialogue to say. Ancient Dragon is a good example. Even when the enemy is immune to timestop, those vanilla scripts which forced him to initiate dialogue would halt the creature's normal behavior during timestop, because even though the enemy is immune to timestop, he would keep trying to talk with no avail (if for example, the SHOUTDLG script had a higher prioirty to the creature's combat script). Cheaters could abuse this possibility (by casting Timestop offscreen) as well. With the new changes to those vanilla scripts, enemies who are immune to timestop will be able to fight normally during timestop and will try to say their lines only when the normal time resumes. They are not immune to melee damage during timestop because they can defend themselves. I have not added a global effect to the timestop spell to grant immunity to melee damage; I have implemented different workarounds for different enemies. Those enemies who can effectively defend themselves during timestop would still take damage from melee weapons. Only those who can be killed easily (as if ctrl-Y-ed) will be impervious to melee damage during timestop (and even for them, the types of solutions I have implemented differs from case to case). As I said, it's just a hidden anti-cheat feature of the mod; players who play fair and square won't even notice it.

This post has been edited by Sikret: Jan 27 2009, 09:47 AM

Reason for edit: Adding a few lines to reason no.3

[Ardanis]

Hi all.

Time Stop
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 9, Trickery 9
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text
This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.
You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession.
You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop.

I believe TS differs from one edition to another, perhaps exactly due to that gray line - whether a caster should or should not be allowed to attack during it.

[Daulmakan]

BG2 spells are based on AD&D 2E...

Time Stop
(Alteration)

Range: 0
Components: V
Duration: Special
Casting Time: 9
Area of Effect: 15-ft. radius
Saving Throw: None

Upon casting a time stop spell, the wizard causes the flow of time to stop for one round
in the area of effect. Outside this area the sphere simply seems to shimmer for an instant.
Inside the sphere, the caster is free to act for 1d3 rounds of apparent time. The wizard can
move and act freely within the area where time is stopped, but all other creatures, except
for those of demigod and greater status or unique creatures, are frozen in their actions, for
they are literally between ticks of the time clock.

I'd say that pretty much includes going melee or having a mug of ale if the wizard so wishes.

[Baronius]

Considering the arguments against it, it is not surprising they changed it for the 3rd edition.

[Sikret]

Yeah, I'd say that the "act freely" portion of the description had been questioned countless times before they realised that it needed to be clarified that it doesn't include "attacking".