Regarding the game play (EDITED MAY 15, 2008), you'll see Options

[Hoppy]

Bereth,
Why don't you create a tactics mod for everyone to install and call it "Bereth's super-tweaky-battle-script-creature-pure AD&D-by the books-exactly as the books say" mod? Since a lot of time goes into writing the storyline, characters, romances, areas, items, new creatures, maybe some precise stats weren't the main concern? That is just a guess on my part in Vlad's defense.

[Senka]

And I have to add, if you don't like this mod just don't play it. It's simple, as Vlad said...

[Baronius]

I think Bereth is big D&D fan, who would like to see all rules to be followed in the various implementations. When it's not perfect or nearly perfect, it disturbs him.

Bereth, while I'm known to be strict regarding mod quality and design, my approach in respect of rules & balance is quite liberal. My two principles:

1. Creativity and imagination has no limits, and no attempts should be made to limit them in a restrictive way. Each mod author can decide what world, context, environment he/she would like to use. If one of his/her goals is to make an enjoyable mod for players, then -- from the viewpoint of players and critics -- this is the primary thing that matters, and others are secondary. If there are players who like the mod the way it is, then the goal was achieved.
2. A mod should be consistent, balanced in its own "world". For example, if the goal isn't to make a BG2 mod that conforms with AD&D as far as possible, then it doesn't have to be built up in that way. In other words, my second principle prefers relativeness to absolute approach. Consistency inside its own world and concept, and possibly in the game's world.

[..]disregarded core AD&D rules set!.

If you say this about NEJ, then you certainly haven't played my Grey Clan Episode One mod yet.

Unlike many others (such as you or BWL's Council Member, Vlasák), I know very little about AD&D. I know BG2 isn't a "perfect" implementation, but I even have problems with fundemental things (such as Mindflayers and other similar stuff). So I don't know AD&D, I look at Baldur's Gate (especially BG1, my favourite) as a game which brings to a world with mythological/medieval features.

I've never criticized a mod based on how it does or doesn't conform with any kind of rules (AD&D or not), and I usually find such debates childish (unless all participants profess the same view, and e.g. they disagree in certain points). When someone says Grey Clan has "wonderfully" unbalanced battles, or that Improved Anvil is "overpowered", the person who says this is under the influence of his or her own notion of balance. So I don't blame anyone, though when the person just can't realize the aformentioned fact (i.e. that different people have different definitions and notions about things) and believes he/she is so clever, then it bcomes laughable.

Of course, I didn't mean to discourage you from sharing your criticism in the present topic -- I just tried to present an aspect that might be new to you.

[Sir-Kill]

Heh yeah I am not a big D&D rules guy either but I guess mod authors could sidestep this issue and call a cave troll (in this instance) a super cave troll, veteran cave troll, scaled cave troll, or some such just to differentiate that this guy is a some sort of badass.

[Hoppy]

I will say it again that BG1 and BG2 were based on AD&D rules. Maybe they came close but creating a world of interactive NPC's, mythology (like Baronius said), music, areas, romances, banters and a full developed storyline made it a much different atmosphere than pure AD&D rules where if someone died, the person playing the cleric spends the rest of the night crying in the kitchen

I think that the main goal of modders (non-tactical mods) is to add to that environment that BG 1 and 2 gave to us. If they make enemies a little "off the books", that is an aesthetic choice.
I have heard all of this before in posts by you (=Bereth) about other mods (you know exactly which mod I am talking about ), so I will not post in this topic anymore.

This post has been edited by Hoppy: May 16 2008, 05:14 PM

[Bereth Darkides]

Guys,,, understand something. A Baetazu losing to a cave troll is NOT, just a little off the wall. In fact it's equal to a 4 year old beating the snot out of Arnold S. (in under 30 seconds). Your inability to recognize this speaks Volumes of your own knowledge of D&D and it's rules and respect for the need of game balance. This is all I'm trying to say. If you want idea's I would certainly be happy to give you more than enough that would fill this board for months. All of them would be balanced and very, very difficult for most.

It's not that I DON'T like the game! If I didn't, I wouldn't be playing it. But like I said if I find SEVERE inconsistencies as above then would I/should I make note of it? I thought you guys were open minded AND grown up enough to take some critcism? I thought you wanted to make this (considering the effort put into it) the best mods available?
Don't you?

I placed the scenario with the vampire on here for example to give you a perfect example of what can be done within the games limtis and would BAFFLE you all. I have more tricks up my sleve than you could imagine. I have offered for years my input for ideas but this is more about ego than creating a sound game for EVERYONE and not just a select few.
Was this not your goal in the first place? My point is, if your prepared to completely alter game balance in an attempt to increase difficulty are you not in essence also willing to alter the entire rule setting and thus eliminating the very concept the game was built on?

I KNOW the effort put forward, but all I am suggesting is improvements that makes sence. There is extreme difficulty in base D&D without having to alter a thing. Please understand these are not personal attacks nor am I not appreciative of all the modding efforts, but I think it's time to say calm down a little and listen to reason. You can still make these mods the best ever done.
Is that not what you want. I am more than prepared to help create this within the games scope. The only modding at this point that would be required is Creature files and a few icon additions.

[Bereth Darkides]

Please don't take it personaly, I still love all the efforts and everyone!

[Sir-Kill]

I did not take any offense. you probably have a good point, I know nothing of D&D outside of bg.
but does Baetazu's have levels or are they merely born tough as nails?

ya know if you do have a lot of knowledge of D&D would you/could you put together something like
PC / level__________Vs._________ (balanced) Creatures (probably start with only existing ie cre.)

that would prove useful in many instances. cause going up against gnolls at lvl 5+ is just annoying

This post has been edited by Sir-Kill: May 16 2008, 08:47 PM

[Baronius]

No problem Bereth

Your inability to recognize this speaks Volumes of your own knowledge of D&D and it's rules [..]

Perhaps because many of us don't care so much about AD&D conformance? Come on, try to realize we don't take it so seriously.

In case you have ignored my previous post, here is something that follows from that post: mods that players enjoy can be made without strict AD&D rules...
OK you don't enjoy it in such a case and you have right to tell your criticism, but it's you... and perhaps some other players... The mod download statistics don't reflect that it would be a disliked mod...

You should understand that others might have (slightly) different approach than you, so either you can make an own mod, or offer advice on various mod subforums (which is welcome, but obviously, authors might not agree in everything).

[ClefairyTorii]

I personally played AD&D 2nd edition for many years and have read dozens of the books. That being said, most of the books, barring the Player's Handbook are meant as guides and tools. They are by no means set in stone. They are just there so DMs (such as Vlad) don't have to waste so much time.

Why can't a Troll defeat a Baatezu? I personally don't use the Summon Fiend scroll or whatever, but seeing as Vlad is the DM, he basically controls what happens. Maybe every time a fiend is summoned, it is a lowly Spinagon. The main point is, there really is no reason why a Troll wouldn't be a bad ass. Maybe these are higher evolved trolls. Maybe these trolls have the blood of the Troll God, "Trollz0r the Pwnz0r" coursing through their veins. Maybe they are ROBOT TROLLS! I know this sounds stupid, but it could be true because thats how AD&D is. If I ever said to my DM (PnP), "Hey, I'm level 10, I SHOULD BE DOMINATING THESE TROLLS FOR FREE" He'd say "The door is over there!". The whole reason you don't copy the Monstrous Compendiums word for word is so your players can't just memorize stats and know what to expect.

If anything, the only thing out of place in my eyes is the experience values. Considering the strength of the monsters, higher experience would typically be rewarded. However, if Vlad did that, then everyone would level too fast... thus by keeping the current values, he balanced the game. So yeah, I'd say the game is balanced pretty well. I'd hate to have to SK my levels down once I get back to CI.

As Baronius said, all that matters is if people like the mod. Well, I can't speak for others, but I personally had a blast playing NEJ, and I can't wait for Lower Dorn's Deep and the rest of the mod.

[Bereth Darkides]

I did not take any offense. you probably have a good point, I know nothing of D&D outside of bg.
but does Baetazu's have levels or are they merely born tough as nails?

ya know if you do have a lot of knowledge of D&D would you/could you put together something like
PC / level__________Vs._________ (balanced) Creatures (probably start with only existing ie cre.)

that would prove useful in many instances. cause going up against gnolls at lvl 5+ is just annoying

Absolutely would love to help in any way.
Regarding your other question about leveling for demon kind, they actualy have a ranking system on there own besides that found in the Monster Manual. The demon Hierarchy is extreamly precise and even more so than angels and arch angels.


Example;


PC / level11 th level PCVs.Baetazu(balanced) is unbalanced. Remember also a +3 weapon is needed just to start. Also, fear comes into effect so mind protection spells are VERY needed.

PC / level13 th level PCVs.Baetazu is a tough fight and the PC will still probably die a sick death but at least by this level he could hurt it. Keep in mind all Baetazu are NEVER alone and will always have minions around them. At least 4 characters at this level would be needed.
(remember the planar sphere, you had 6 characters at this level or higher, which is why you might have found the battles a little easier)

[Sir-Kill]

cool. Do you have any web publishing experience (if not word or spreadsheet) cause (and this might be a huge amount of work if you decide to take it on) if you could make web page that would list creatures/ optimal encounter level with PC or (this might be the easiest) just creatures that you would not want to face until level......
something like:

Level || Creatures
1 || cre1, cre2*, cre3, ect.
*notes (Keep in mind all 'Cre.2' are .......)

Level || Creatures
2 || cre1, cre2, cre3, ect.
*notes

[Bereth Darkides]

Sounds like a good Idea. I'll tell you what, I can create either a topic here and have it pinned. I will call it "Ask the DM" and in there people (modders) can ask questions as to what type of creatures items could be placed. For every question rest assured I can give an answer. I promise to give precise and accurate answers to any.

I don't think creating a web site would have the same effect. At least here the information would be more accessible and not too much of a bother for anyone. In regards to "The Battles" I can promise you this. One of the reasons why AD&D 2nd edition was so popular was because of the system. Bioware made some battles tough this is true, but they also wanted to make sure the each battle was very winnable in order to call it a video game. I can come up with scenarios that will baffle and confound. Scripting the clues will be up to the modders but it can be simply done with adding a last comment like "and remember, if you insist on facing this creature, obtain this item first" or something to this effect so it is not as time consuming for the modders. (see I am considerate).

Keep in mind my forte isn't in programming but I do know how programs works and somewhat of how implementable and Integrateable/Interchangeable IE is towards these accurate ends. All I can do is promise to give the best probable course of action toward this end. I've been around enough to know by now. (since Teambg's beggining).

How does this sound? Besides everyone needs someone they can go to for answers. Even the modders.



Any questions at all! :-)

For example:

If you thought Baetazu were tough before, what would you say to a greater Baetazu gating in up to two other lesser Baetazu on the second round.......2x/day? (something they can and very often do)!

MMMMMWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHHAHAHHAHAAAAAAA

Here is an online 2nd edition monstrous manual lookup for ALL of the creatures found within Baldur's Gate's three installments. Sure it's a lot of reading, lol, but simply doing a "find, search" on the page will bring up a creatures stats and ecologies etc. on the page. Luckily though, you have me here so I can save you some time. Almost all of the printed book is here!

http://www.seads.org/TSR/monbk.htm


It's beggings were humble at the start

http://rdushay.home.mindspring.com/Museum/Images/MMcover.gif

This post has been edited by Bereth Darkides: May 21 2008, 12:31 PM

[Sir-Kill]

I would tend to disagree about the web page, I personally don't like to ask questions if I can find the answers myself.
However, maybe a combination of the 2: if you can use a spreadsheet keep the info on it make it down loadable and update it when new questions/answers come.
you could keep it in a topic in the first post. I would also keep the topic a bit more specific.
I would think that pinning it w/o any actual database would be kind of a waste. Pinned topics are needed for important easy to find resources. no offense meant.

[Bereth Darkides]

I personally played AD&D 2nd edition for many years and have read dozens of the books. That being said, most of the books, barring the Player's Handbook are meant as guides and tools. They are by no means set in stone. They are just there so DMs (such as Vlad) don't have to waste so much time.

Why can't a Troll defeat a Baatezu? I personally don't use the Summon Fiend scroll or whatever, but seeing as Vlad is the DM, he basically controls what happens. Maybe every time a fiend is summoned, it is a lowly Spinagon. The main point is, there really is no reason why a Troll wouldn't be a bad ass. Maybe these are higher evolved trolls. Maybe these trolls have the blood of the Troll God, "Trollz0r the Pwnz0r" coursing through their veins. Maybe they are ROBOT TROLLS! I know this sounds stupid, but it could be true because thats how AD&D is. If I ever said to my DM (PnP), "Hey, I'm level 10, I SHOULD BE DOMINATING THESE TROLLS FOR FREE" He'd say "The door is over there!". The whole reason you don't copy the Monstrous Compendiums word for word is so your players can't just memorize stats and know what to expect.

If anything, the only thing out of place in my eyes is the experience values. Considering the strength of the monsters, higher experience would typically be rewarded. However, if Vlad did that, then everyone would level too fast... thus by keeping the current values, he balanced the game. So yeah, I'd say the game is balanced pretty well. I'd hate to have to SK my levels down once I get back to CI.

As Baronius said, all that matters is if people like the mod. Well, I can't speak for others, but I personally had a blast playing NEJ, and I can't wait for Lower Dorn's Deep and the rest of the mod.

Yes they are interchangeable but the true ability of keeping a balanced game within scope of practical playability is not to be done by taking away a PC actual ability or in the rendering of him as useless. For example, a spell works like this (*), so it should always remain like this (*), but it isn't cool to take away a spells ability because you just want to thus making the spell work like this (^). There are reasons why spells have powers at certain levels (ie lesser vs greater) and it all works into the game balance. You wouldn't for example create the "WISH" spell with the same power and ability and then call it a third level spell now would you? So, why would you implace an unbalanced creature against another who in all respects could not (with it's own abilities in respect) hope to defeat the said creature unless a "TRICK" was needed. Again, this is what is being done. It translates into a non compatible or non-conformant AD&D experience. If you have the background and have had the experience then you would also recognize the need for the balance.

Make no mistake, AD&D 2nd edition was a SOLID system, and VERY balanced. It was the most played game in history and for good reason. Serious players got to know the system so well, that if any unbalanced inconsistencies arose they would recognize and question the DM. Then the PC would scramble to figure it out.

As for your question

Why can't a Troll defeat a Baatezu?

1st)Trolls only have or are considered to be able to hit +1 required to hit creatures (all works into game balance)
2nd) Trolls would be instantly enthralled and then controlled. Mere appearance of this creature would cause the troll to bolt (ie no chance to win) or serve it!
3rd)Even lesser Baetazu are +2 required to hit
4th) Same applies to the Taran'ri (Baetazu's natural enemy)
5th) Can you recreate a new creature? Sure you can, but you need to keep it in respect of the ecology of the creature. ie. there will probably be only one of them due to the intellect of a troll (almost mindless creatures often controll by beholders and other undead creatures like Liches), but they are completely territorial and despise being controlled (Nalia's dungeon should be your clue, ie. there was only one).

Bioware had access to someone who could guide them in delivering the implementations. Are you saying the modders here don't need one when the creators of the game insisted upon it? Keep in mind were now talking about the original game everyone loved so much!

You wouldn't let a +1 sword strike the dragons found (existing) in the game now would you? Why would this be? Because it would diminish the dragons power and level now wouldn't it, thus "The Balance" and it's need? It's the exact same reason why a troll could not hope to win against the Baetazu.

Same thing goes for Liches etc. etc etc.

Yous say things weren't written in stone! I say, (and so did the writers of the said books) it was suggested they were meant to be completely understood before alterations were made thus you could balance your own alterations, thus creating a system of continued balance. There were far more pieces of material created for AD&D 2nd Edition than any other game system ever made, and it was done so by implementations of the above standards!

After a while, creating creatures and items become natural, thus once you grasp the system your creations make more sense and keeps to the existing system. It all works smoothly. It also lets you know what can be and cannot be done in the mind of the player. You have to be higher than 9th level just to face an adult dragon to even speak to it otherwise you'll just bolt at it's mere sight!

PS.... same goes for Thaco's BTW.

This post has been edited by Bereth Darkides: May 21 2008, 01:43 PM

[Bereth Darkides]

Bereth,
Why don't you create a tactics mod for everyone to install and call it "Bereth's super-tweaky-battle-script-creature-pure AD&D-by the books-exactly as the books say" mod? Since a lot of time goes into writing the storyline, characters, romances, areas, items, new creatures, maybe some precise stats weren't the main concern? That is just a guess on my part in Vlad's defense.

I understand your feelings completely, just bare with my explanations, you will see were on the same side. It's only HELP that I'm offering.
As per the comments of not wanting to go word for word. Do not fret, just because abilities of creatures are written somewhere does not mean you can predict the outcome of a battle.. lol. That is why saving throws are made etc etc. There are hundreds of ways battles can be won and lost! Every Player knows that battle with a dragon could easily mean his death even at very high levels.

[Hoppy]

I like Sir-Kill's request about the balances verses PC level and Creature level. Please do more as if I create a mod, I want it to follow the balance structure more and also create new creatures (not just new names for existing ones) I think I have the 2nd ed. monster manual as well as a lot of the FR campaign books. I am just not a pure AD&D player so I don't know much about balance of creatures in the game structure.

Yeah, I lied when I said I wouldn't post anymore.

Gotcha !

[DavidW]

You wouldn't let a +1 sword strike the dragons found (existing) in the game now would you? Why would this be? Because it would diminish the dragons power and level now wouldn't it, thus "The Balance" and it's need? It's the exact same reason why a troll could not hope to win against the Baetazu.

+1 swords work just fine against every dragon in the (unmodded) game. So do normal swords, in fact.

In general I think you might be surprised at just how many liberties the designers of BG2 took with the AD&D ruleset, if you look "under the hood" of the game. But amusingly, this isn't one of them: 2nd edition dragons don't have weapon immunities either.

[Ymarsakar]

Because there is no Dungeon Master to continually tweak things in a BG2 game, the game must then be balanced so that the monsters you summon aren't more powerful than your entire party. If you can summon a demon from a scroll, without even being high enough level to cast that spell from memorization tables, then the game would become unbalanced if that demon was invulnerable to the enemies that your current party can take on.

You must then now remove all summon fiend or demon scrolls, but you can't make scrolls require a specific level to cast, since that is ingame engine limitations.

BG2's gameplay is very linear and any mod creator must take that into account. There is only so much that can be done with exceptional circumstances via scripts, areas, and new creature dialogs. So unlike in AD and D table top, you just can't have the Dungeon Master give a dynamic choice to the party of "cast summon demon" or "don't take the risk" or "stealthily avoid/negotiate the monsters while acquiring the same xp value". The party's going to be killing monsters and if you give them the capability to summon a demon immune to +3 weapons, then they're going to use it and exploit that advantage. Then every other creature further along then must be upgraded in order to then challenge the party and their power.

Nej2, the crypt and dragon's eye, are very much like dungeon crawls in which you have to use every resource at your disposal to personally attack and destroy numerous enemies. But it would take an extraordinary amount of effort simply to provide a one time cast of a one time spell for a one time encounter. It is both much more convenient and faster to lower the power of player party summoned monsters.

There will always be the problem of, if you give the player a special spell for this area, of how to prevent him from using it in another part of the area against other enemies.

Improved Anvil is very though about that kind of game balance, but it also requires a lot of work and time spent. Whether any particular modder will decide to spend that time tweaking things to both fit the game balance as well as your preferences, Bereth, is obviously not set in stone.

<B>Because it would diminish the dragons power and level now wouldn't it</b>

There are various different ways to ensure that dragons are more difficult of an enemy to defeat than other lesser creatures. Increased damage immunities, spell applications, spell immunities, summoned guards, as well as various high strength attacks can dramatically increase the ability of a dragon to take on entire armies of lesser creatures. And of course, creatures immune to +3 magic weapons can only be dealt with, in the game, by acquiring +4 or greater weapons. If you are not at the point in the game where you can acquire said weapons or can't find a +4 weapon that you have 5 proficiencyes or 2 proficiencies in, then you have not just "balanced" the dragon, you have made the dragon undefeatable except by spells.

Changing the weapon immunities of creatures would then require that you change the entire balance of the rest of the game. You have to add in +4 weapons earlier than intended or have make it so that parties that don't have +4 weapons can't defeat the dragon. If you add in +4 weapons, then all your other creatures not immune to +3 weapons just got a little bit weaker.

In the final end tally, what is the overall and general theme, point, and philosophy behind making a Baatezu immune to certain enchanted weapons of a low enough grade? How will that, in fact, improve the player experience? Did you use the scroll expecting the Baatezu to slaughter your enemies? But you must have known that vanilla summoned creatures were barely adequate for BG2's enemies. Vlad would have to totally convert vanilla summoning spells to make them useful against Nej2's improved enemies.

Sikret did convert some spells in vanilla to be better in harmony with Improved Anvil, but in the end, it is still never as easy as simply ensuring that a baatezu can defeat a cave troll. Bereth.

[Bereth Darkides]

You must then now remove all summon fiend or demon scrolls, but you can't make scrolls require a specific level to cast, since that is ingame engine limitations.

I nderstand what you are say above but like the comment above, this isn't a limitation, this is a "core rule" that was imposed into the game. You can upgrade creatures as I said even within the limitations of the game. Keep in mind placing treasure (as with the scroll I tried to use) is also part of game balance. It all works into each other. With all the mods, cheats and fixes people over the years have enjoyed I have noticed people are of these three minds:

1)They either want to be able to Easily crush anything so they don't care if there characters are over balanced

or

2)They wan't the challenges so difficult then when they finaly figure it out they feel better about themselves.

or

3) They prefer a perfect balance of difficulty and ease.


Even with the creatures found withing the core game, there are more than enough of them to create extreamly difficult battles. Modders need to not just hand out 9th lvl spells or +5 swords like they were candy. Too many modders and players want there cake and eat it to, but it certainly doesn't make any sense to hand out the candy and then render them useless now does it?

This is the essence of why 2nd edition was created a very long time ago. I have to say Ymarsakar, that your wrong about a lot of the things your concluding. Just because you give something out doesn't mean you have to downgrade or upgrade anything. The system is perfect as it is, you just need to understand it better and how to balance it all out.

Treasure, spells, traps, scenarios, length of journey (between sleep), many small battles, one large battle, monsters, PC generation, NPC generation, magic items, artifacts, etc etc etc must all fit into the balance of the game or there will be no system to rely upon. Nothing is making sence. in essence your creating something with No Rules at all, just a shim sham of "anything goes". Upredictabilty doesn't equalize difficulty. Just look at the vampire situation I gave in the other post (completely implementable within the games limitations by the way). Just how long would that have taken any of you to figure out?. You would have fought well but also would have died unless you figured it out, no matter how hard or well you fought.

If I cannot convince you with this example, than I don't think I can. If you think you've thought of a lot of scenarios yourself and that you've seen it all, think again. BG is only JUST scratching the surface of the capabilities the games engine and original material can generate!

Another example:

Beholders are leathal true but did you know they are often employed to watch over dragon hordes. Ever try fighting both at the same time?

Liches are Lords of the undead and store there essence into receptacles thus they are very difficult to actualy kill. Have it so any lich posses this and these things must be destroyed in rder to actualy kill him. During the trip/transport of this said device (by the way, you can give many items to choose from but only one will be the receptacle *you see, I told you I'm evil*), of course you realize he will pay you another visit right.. or two...........WWAAAAAAAAAAAAAhaHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAA..

Trust me. I could create a balanced a game that would anhialate your entire party 9 times out of ten all based on your own experience and knowledge, all based on "Core rules". Been doing it for years.

You don't need to alter much, or unbalance the game outside of core rules to give you the fight of your life!

This post has been edited by Bereth Darkides: May 23 2008, 06:21 PM