UB bug still present in v16, [split by Baronius] Options

[Sir_Carnifex]

Under the name Proteus_Za or something like that. He just posted that he posted here, so unless he's fabricating the entire story, he's just using a different name here.

[The Bigg]

Shows how much attention I have for details (and thus why I can't test the FP even if I wished to)

[Ardanis]

Even if you are right, if you resort to posting like you seem to always do - ie attacking Camdawg's character, accusing them of spreading propaganda - you completely destroy your own argument, and nobody takes you seriously. Besides which, if you have something important to say, say it once. The more often you repeat the same thing, the less likely people are to care. Because you repeat the same thing over and over, no matter what the truth value is of your initial statement, nobody listens. It becomes, "Oh look, Sikret and Baronius are wanting to start an argument about how they hate Fixpack, I wish they would drop it"

I could just sign under this statement.

the topic (at G3) dedicated to slandering/ridiculing some BWL members. Let's see... twenty-three pages AFTER it's been split from the original topic.

I wonder if anyone posting there is actually being serious. Surely they act like bad-mannered kids who think throwing rot apples at oldmen is a sort of good game, but barely anything else. Besides, if you take that "slandering/ridiculing" seriously would mean that you actually listen to it and consider it. But that's not the point, correct? Why would adult people feel offended by petty mockering is beyond my comprehension.

And about blackmailing. I could have missed something, but are you being sincere here? I for one never felt like I was being persuaded or something. Of course there is a possibility that I'm just way too intelligent and have great insight compared to all of little people gathered here (due to the recent event I'd like to clarify - it's meant to be an irony, a way to reduce stress). But I rather to think that modern people aren't that stupid to fall to such cheap "propaganda".

[Sir_Carnifex]

the topic (at G3) dedicated to slandering/ridiculing some BWL members. Let's see... twenty-three pages AFTER it's been split from the original topic.

I wonder if anyone posting there is actually being serious. Surely they act like bad-mannered kids who think throwing rot apples at oldmen is a sort of good game, but barely anything else. Besides, if you take that "slandering/ridiculing" seriously would mean that you actually listen to it and consider it. But that's not the point, correct? Why would adult people feel offended by petty mockering is beyond my comprehension.

What you said about bad-mannered kids hits right on. My post was merely pointing out that he is participating in something that is essentially the same as what he was "opposing". I do think that some few are serious in ridiculing, but really, since it's done in the G3 thread, all it does is lower the reputation of the forum that permits such nonsense to go on. That is why I chose to come to BWL in the first place. I checked out the forums and I found several of them to be severely lacking in certain areas (in fact, a link in either G3 or PPG is what brought me here ).

Actually it's not the individual that bothers me (I've dealt with tons of that type online already in countless numbers) but rather the fact that these days those types are becoming more and more prolific. The anonymity of the internet doesn't help matters either. Basically, any type of manners are going *Fwwtttt* down the drain. But that's another topic.

[Baronius]

The anonymity of the internet and the lack of need to take responsibility makes certain people believe they're amazingly important and clever in everything.

They believe they can comment anything and their comment is amazingly important and precious.

Normally, you don't try to be clever in topics or fields where you aren't experienced or skilled. Sure, you are free to comment in such cases too, but you aren't considered important and credible. On the other hand, on the internet, many people seem to believe that since they can comment anything, this makes them (and their comments) very important and clever.

It usually reflects a weak character, a weak personality who needs constant reassuring from other people. For example, Ancalagon_UK/proteus_za simply copied a part of Sikret's reply and pasted it to his post at G3, and commented it there. In other words, he brought it to a "friendly" ground where he can get support, because he needs the constant reassuring. A strong personality doesn't need such things. Doesn't need to flee and retreat to his nest to prepare for a new attack.

However, trolls and gnolls (e.g. that pal at G3 with the laughing Muttley avatar, forgot his exact nick, he used to be an IA player) are a special subcategory. They need constant attention and need to feel important, because in the reality, they can't be important anywhere. On the other hand, in the internet, they can get attention and feel themselves to be important.

But this would also be another topic.

[Ardanis]

I was as serious as possible about blackmailing. I would be grateful if you clarify this (should you have the time naturally) - do you seriously mean that an ordinary person is supposed to buy that?

Completely out of topic

laughing Muttley avatar

Blue laughing face? I thought it originated from Ghost in the Shell series (2002 or 2003 year). Was I wrong?

[DavidW]

It usually reflects a weak character, a weak personality who needs constant reassuring from other people. For example, Ancalagon_UK/proteus_za simply copied a part of Sikret's reply and pasted it to his post at G3, and commented it there. In other words, he brought it to a "friendly" ground where he can get support, because he needs the constant reassuring.

I suspect it's also about different forum policies, actually. For various reasons (which are perfectly reasonable; it's your site), threads reasonably often get closed down here - like that discussion you and I were having a while ago - whereas G3 doesn't delete posts. I'd probably have done something similar with my earlier argument (or at least kept a local copy to repost if necessary) if I'd remembered that your policies are different from what I'm used to - otherwise it can be awfully irritated when something you've thought carefully about and think worth saying gets lost.

None of that is any comment on the actual content of the thread you're discussing, of course.

[Baronius]

It usually reflects a weak character, a weak personality who needs constant reassuring from other people. For example, Ancalagon_UK/proteus_za simply copied a part of Sikret's reply and pasted it to his post at G3, and commented it there. In other words, he brought it to a "friendly" ground where he can get support, because he needs the constant reassuring.

I suspect it's also about different forum policies, actually. For various reasons (which are perfectly reasonable; it's your site), threads reasonably often get closed down here - like that discussion you and I were having a while ago - whereas G3 doesn't delete posts. I'd probably have done something similar with my earlier argument (or at least kept a local copy to repost if necessary) if I'd remembered that your policies are different from what I'm used to - otherwise it can be awfully irritated when something you've thought carefully about and think worth saying gets lost.

First of all, only those threads get removed which (1): initial poster or the majority of posters doesn't obey the Terms of Use, or (2): are beset by trolls OR we believe there is a high chance it will tempt trolls (this follows from the ToU too though) and we can't guarantee enough moderator attention to it. We believed that the thread 'Baronius believes modding has become a "business"' might tempt trolls so the best was to take any public access to it -- however, this thread is still here, it has been up for a long time, because we don't see much risk for the time being that it might tempt trolls: we approach the same points and question here in a different way (I also try to be less harsh), so trolls won't find any pretext to come here. So we discuss the same points basically here too, but without the risk of being disturbed by trolls.

As far as your question is concerned: OK let's assume someone doesn't know what I've written above, and for some reason fears that his/her post would be deleted, so he/she copies it somewhere. This indeed doesn't have to be a weak personality, just someone who hasn't yet understood our policy (and there is no problem with that). On the other hand, when he/she copies the REPLY of a BWL mod developer (more precisely, a distinguished developer) from here, PASTES it on a different forum AND gives there a DIFFERENT reply to it there than here, it's not about being afraid of deleting one's post. It's taking someone else's words to a different place where he can get enough "support" from trolls and others who can't come here. Simple.


@Ardanis:

(As for the avatar of the buddy: no, IIRC the dog is not blue, but I may be wrong.)

For that certain matter, the word 'coercion' or 'manipulation' might be more suitable. I'm not a native speaker, so in this certain case, I might not have used the best word. On the other hand, generally, the example of e.g. Improved Anvil V1, or Vlad's mods might clarify what I meant:
- Improved Anvil V1 uses different methods than what the G3 folks would prefer (and which might make Improved Anvil compatible with their mods at the cost of changing Improved Anvil's several basic concepts)
- They come and keep bothering Sikret even when he repeatedly says that he wouldn't use their methods
- Certain G3 FP developers and certain other mod developers too start to spread false information or explicit lies about Improved Anvil on forums to convince (mislead) players not to try it ever
- The propaganda was relatively effective: even players who came (and still come) here often seem to have heard amazingly impossible things and lies about Improved Anvil

Same with Vlad's mods. He decided not to devote time to ensure compatibility with other mods and support the (bug-creating) G3 Fixpack, because he is a human too with an own life, and the mods are big. What's the result? Certain users are spreading lies about his mods.

Lies and manipulative, subtle statements.

And no, I don't want to get into a debate of the definition of a "lie" and "manipulative" -- I'm sure I'm using it in correct meaning. When someone says "Improved Anvil is built to deliberately break other mods" it's a lie. When a certain infamous user says "Sikret said Improved Anvil is the only bug-free mod" (and is shameless enough to say that it was an acceptable exaggeration), or when says "Sikret wanted his mod to be in ALL categories of the PPG Infinity Engine modlist", it's very manipulative (and practically a lie, see my next sentence). While the truth is, it was stated that Improved Anvil is the only *big* bug-free mod, the only big mod without serious bugs (one could argue about what a 'big' mod is, but this is not the point: it's a lie spreading that it was said "it's the only bugfree" mod). Similarly, according to our viewpoint (= mods could be added to more categories), Sikret found 5 categories from the 12 where Improved Anvil would fit. Five categories from 12 is less than 50%, and not "all" (i.e. 100&). It's manipulation and attempt to discredit the BWL modders who made the original statements.

Now from the point this becomes predictible (i.e. that you know that if you don't use what they ask you to use, then they will try to discredit you and your work in the eyes of people), it is quasi-blackmail: "If you don't follow the technical methods and guidelines we ask you to follow, you can expect us to spread lies about your work and to make a bad reputation for you. Up to you.". Of course, sometimes it's done by their third-party symphatizers, but even when they notice such things, they don't say: "No, that's incorrect. I believe ..., but not what he/she says". But instead, they rather prefer their point is supported even with lies by others. On a side note, If I read somewhere someone telling "SCS2 was created to steal players from Improved Anvil" or "DavidW states that Improved Anvil is a badly designed mod", I would be the first to clarify that those are pure lies.

On a side note, if this propaganda and behaviour wasn't so general, I might also be closer to willing to believe how DavidW interpreted that post in the "I hate this fix" thread (and generally, the whole thread). But now, based on the other experience, I still believe it's manipulative and quasi coercion, to make every mod developer learn how to edit out the fixes of the G3FP, and generally, to learn how to support G3FP. Not a recommendation: a manipulation. But it's needless to say more about this: even if that thread is completely different than what I see in it, what about the 20+ other examples (including those I listed above) about the manipulative statements and lies that are spread?

And the silent manipulation is very effective indeed. It's much more convincing than any harsh and loud arguments, no matter how valid and appropriate those harsh and loud arguments are. Much more convincing because players and mod developers get "convinced" (misled) implicitly, silently. One could ask why we don't do the same, i.e. trying to be more subtle and silent (because it's more effective). Well, that's simply not we. When we tell something, we do it in a straight way (like now), but then we won't start to make silent propaganda by using subtle statements, "accidently" dropped remarks, or by letting our supporters to spread lies even when we do know about the lies etc. That's not ethic and honest. That doesn't help the community to improve.

As I've said, the manipulation is effective -- let's just see the current situation. I'm sure many readers believe:

"The harsh and loud statements of Baronius do much harm to the community, and harm a real community effort, G3 Fixpack; on the other hand, the G3 FP developers he criticizes just try to do their best to help players and mod developers, they do everything for the benefit of the community".

Yeah, perhaps they believe that G3 FP is some giant benefit for the community, but the facts that they manipulate players and mod developers AND are convinced in the 100% superiority of their methods definitely do NOT benefit the community.

One might also believe: "How can Baronius talk about the benefit of community when these posts of him will split the community even more, instead?" You can believe me, dear reader, misleading players and mod developers, and silently brainwashing players that "our methods are the superior and those who don't use them are against 'community efforts' and 'cooperation'" does SPLIT the community much much more than any harsh statement.

Sounds like a conspiracy theory? No, there is no explicit conspiracy, but the whole thing happens implicitly, in a distributed way. And they're content with this.

The expression which e.g. G3 FP developers love to use ("community effort") is humbug in this case. It's part of the (implicitly happening) propaganda. They have never allowed the "community" to actively participate. "Everyone is invited to the G3 FP to post" and similar jokes. Yeah, you're invited to say what you want, but if they disagree you because your suggestion is against their favoured ideas, your suggestions go to the recycle bin. UNLESS they don't have to, because the discussion of such undesired suggestions was already infected by their support trolls.

Indeed, the support trolls. It's enough to see the thread where Wounded Lion suggested more thorough tests. They let some troll to write provoking and topic-disturbing statements. To distract the discussion from its focus. How is it possible that such trolls never write in threads where the discussion is about an issue SUPPORTED by the G3 FP developers?

The support trolls. It's enough to see the "offtopic Anvil discussion" or whatever thread at G3. If they really wanted exclusively the benefit of the community (and not just their own interests and popularity), they wouldn't allow a thread where mod developers and their work are ridiculed by some uneducated people who have nothing better to do and by those who have inferiority complex and can feel themselves important in this anonym virtual world.

Forum policy, regarding freedom? Humbug. "Freedom" for trolls to attack the topic of a benevolent mod developer (e.g. Wounded Lion) or "freedom" of Wounded Lion (and others) to share their thoughts without being distracted and bad-mouthed? Which is more beneficial to a community that is trying TO BUILD MODS:

(1) giving freedom to trolls to distract and invade MOD developers

or

(2) giving freedom to MOD developers to share their thoughts without being distracted and invaded by trolls?

A decision is always made. Freedom to everyone means anarchy. And indeed, the decision is made by them:

Double standard: if the MOD developer disagrees them in something, doesn't follow their methods in his or her mods, or suggests something they don't want to achknowledge/accept -- then it is policy (1).

For their favoured suggestions, favoured mods and their project's mod developers, the policy is (2) .


To cut a long story short: if they purely wanted to benefit the community (even if this harms the popularity of their favoured mods), they would give EQUAL chance to all mod developers, and wouldn't try to dictate their own (technical and non-technical) methods to the community at any cost. As long as this isn't done, their expression "community effort" is a humbug.

And again, the emberassing question: e.g. why wasn't G3 Fixpack revised and split to more mods (despite the fact that those who currently install ALL parts of it would be able to do the same even after the revision/split)? (Wouldn't it benefit the community?) Perhaps because it would need its developers to spend many hours (which now they use to "find" new "bugs" to be fixed) to verify & categorize the fixes and properly test the mod? Indeed, it would need work that is:
(1) nearly not as much fun as trying to find things to be "fixed" and "improved" -- testing and examining code is often boring and tireing
(2) revising the fixes instead of adding new ones wouldn't increase the popularity of the mod (and thus the website's visitor count), because players won't see NEW content; there would be no possibility to advertise 'hundreds of NEW fixes' and 'brand-new mod release'. Yeah, 'IMPROVED fixes' doesn't sound half as tempting as 'NEW fixes'.

They believe their concepts and methods are superior, they convinced lots of players and modders about this, AND they want to keep this situation at any cost.
For example, you DavidW might not understand my point here, because I think you aren't someone who believes your own methods to be superior to others'. Believe me or not, those certain G3 FP (and not just G3 FP) developers do think their methods are superior and perfect. And they are content with the fact they can abuse their reputation to manipulate the community.

[Lorph Halys]

Having at least made an attempt to read your enormous post that essentially boils down to your belief that there is some sort of mass mental-conditioning conspiracy going on among (it seems) every modder that isn't on your "side", designed to herd the poor, brainless sheep that are "the players" towards certain mods and away from others in what amounts to nothing more than one big, unimportant popularity contest...

...I can't help but wonder if you've actually considered the humbling but perhaps more realistic possibility that maybe the people here are just being silly and need to make better mods.

This post has been edited by Lorph Halys: Aug 30 2008, 05:04 PM

[Baronius]

They indeed consider it a big popularity contest, exactly. Mods that aren't compatible with theirs endanger this popularity, because players might prefer those mods to theirs. That is why it was required (and still required) to spread false information about mods such as Improved Anvil, to mislead players. There is no other reason.

On the other hand, we've never cared if many players or not many players play our mods or not. We don't care if people choose Improved Anvil or SCS2, if people choose BG1 Unfinished Business or Grey Clan Episode One, if people choose Tortured Souls or One-Day NPC mods. Show me one post where we discouraged players from using a mod without listing technical facts to prove our recommendation or advice. For us, it isn't a popularity contest. It's another matter that we do criticize those who make a popularity contest from it, start spreading lies about our mods and try to manipulate mod developers to use their own methods, and try to manipulate players as well.

For example, their propaganda perfectly worked on you:

...I can't help but wonder if you've actually considered the humbling but perhaps more realistic possibility that maybe the people here are just being silly and need to make better mods.

Better mods? What is a 'better' mod? Isn't it a question of taste? Indeed, a mod which tends to break other mods even when installed according to readme instructions can be considered as something which could be made 'better', but this is purely a technical approach. (If we examine BWL mods from a technical approach, I don't think they are more buggy than any other usual non-BWL mod; in fact, some of our mods are known as especially bug-free).

So since you're talking about 'silly people who need to make better mods', you've already become brainwashed by them; you learnt their popularity-centric approach where e.g. a "WeiDU-based mod is a better mod" and "a mod which supports G3 FP is a better mod than a mod that doesn't", instead of what the common sense would say: "A good mod for me is what I enjoy playing".

[Lorph Halys]

On the other hand, we've never cared if many players or not many players play our mods or not. We don't care if people choose Improved Anvil or SCS2, if people choose BG1 Unfinished Business or Grey Clan Episode One, if people choose Tortured Souls or One-Day NPC mods.

You're lying. If you actually didn't care then none of this would matter. You wouldn't care that people were "spreading lies" and discouraging people from playing your mods. After all, that would only result in fewer people playing your mods, which you claim not to care about.

Therefore, you obviously do care on some level. You want people to download and play your mods just like anyone else.

For example, their propaganda perfectly worked on you:

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Everyone who doesn't support you is either a spreader of "propaganda" or a poor, innocent victim of it who cannot think for themselves. You automatically leap to the conclusion that I've simply been "brainwashed" into a mindless proponent of WeiDU and the Gibberlings 3 Fixpack and whatnot, even though I made no mention of those whatsoever. Do me a favour and don't insult my intelligence the next time you talk to me.

First of all, there is such a thing as a "better" mod. It's not a matter of taste. A mod that I enjoy playing is just a mod that I enjoy playing, not necessarily a good mod. If I created, for example, an NPC that interrupted play every five seconds to say "I am an NPC", had no other dialogue, was useless in combat and forced you to accept him into your party if he caught sight of you, that would be a bad mod. It doesn't matter if someone out there happens to enjoy it; I've still done a terrible job that is in dire need of improvement.

Secondly, I did not accuse any of the mods here of being bad. Indeed, I've never played any of them, so I wouldn't know. What I was saying, if you'd care to stop crying "PROPAGANDA!" for a moment to listen, was that before you start coming up with wild theories to place the blame on the shoulders of everyone else, perhaps you should take a look at yourselves and realise that the opposing "side" may have a point.

Sometimes it's your own fault that nobody likes you.

[Baronius]

You're lying. If you actually didn't care then none of this would matter. You wouldn't care that people were "spreading lies" and discouraging people from playing your mods. After all, that would only result in fewer people playing your mods, which you claim not to care about.

Two different things.

As everyone else, I believe we do have the right to reject lies that are related to our work.

As anyone else, I believe I have right to detail my viewpoint if I believe that certain groups cause much harm to the IE modding community.

This is about principles, not popularity.

Therefore, you obviously do care on some level. You want people to download and play your mods just like anyone else.

Since we have no commercial interest in this (I wonder if the developers of G3 FP have), it doesn't matter how many players play the mods. Sure, each mod developer is glad to read compliments and feedback on his or her forum or in his email inbox, but that doesn't mean there should be a competition.

And I still believe you're strongly influenced by their propaganda -- sorry if it's a problem for you, but your words reflect that many of your statements aren't based on your own judgement, research or knowledge. For example, how can you guess what is realistic regarding BWL mods if you've never played them. How can you asume that "nobody likes us"...? Just because there is a thread at G3 where some bored people (and those who need attention to feel important) tell some bad things? You aren't really familiar with the discussion at all. It's not about whether anyone 'likes us' or not (On a side note, though it doesn't belong to the subject of this topic, I believe several BWL mods are liked by several players -- so again, you're just repeating what you read on other forums, I suppose.)

[Jab]

These threads are just hatcheries for trolls. Give it up Baronius. ;-)

Still you can believe in better tomorows...

[Baronius]

Thanks Jab, I'm not trying to convince G3 FP developers any more, but hopefully it will have a similar effect as my old long post at the Improved Anvil (it will open the eyes of more readers).

However, you're right that it's a hatchery for trolls -- fortunately, they can't come here (at least, the risk is small).

Yeah, all we can do is to believe in better tomorrows, but fortunately, it's not such a big issue. BWL still provides a place for those who reject propaganda and arrogance in the community, and I'm content with this. Of course, it's still an issue to a certain extent, but fortunately my posts always seem to have a positive effect on the long run, as far as I've experienced. The time I spend with it isn't completely fruitless Improved Anvil is the best example for how BWL can keep together to protect original ideas from those who want to force others to give up their ideas just to follow "mainstream" methods and compatibility.

[Sir_Carnifex]

But it takes fire and acid to kill them. So...

[Baronius]

@Jab: I hope that's some fine Czech beer in your post... because if it is, then I definitely want to drink it.

[Lorph Halys]

And I still believe you're strongly influenced by their propaganda, sorry.

I believe that you are simply spreading lies to denounce Gibberlings 3 because one of the moderators stole your wife and you're bitter about it.

Look! I can make baseless accusations too!

sorry if it's a problem for you, but your words reflect that many of your statements aren't based on your judgement, research or knowledge. For example, how can you guess what is realistic regarding BWL mods if you've never played them.

I beg your pardon?

Again, I never made any attacks whatsoever on the quality of the mods here. All I said was that perhaps they just aren't very good and maybe that's why they have a poor reputation and generally don't seem to be popular, rather than it being because G3 are secretly the Illuminati and are running some insidious scheme to condition people into thinking that they aren't very good, and I suggested that you should consider that possibility before you accuse everyone else of being at fault.

The fact that you just assume that anyone who disagrees with you is a propaganda victim (rather than someone who, I don't know, has reached their own conclusions and has a genuine reason to argue against what you say) reeks of arrogance, and the fact that you then accuse other people of arrogance makes you a hypocrite into the bargain. If you're so damned humble then how come you refuse to consider the possibility that you're the one in the wrong?

How can you say that "nobody like us"

I was speaking metaphorically. Let's be honest, though; even if I hadn't been, it doesn't take a genius to realise that you aren't exactly well-liked in the community, (if you were then why would people be spreading all these "lies" you keep talking about?) and I'm not just talking about some thread over at G3.

(On a side note, though it doesn't belong to the subject of this topic, I believe several BWL mods are liked by several players -- so again, you're just repeating what you read on other forums, I suppose.)

I believe that you are missing the point.

[Jab]

Baronius: I must say, that I don't consider other modding sites as centers of propaganda and arrogance. It's always about people.

Sometimes good persons have different opinions on something (for example "what is really bug, that needs to be repaired") based on their preferences etc.

And of course it's Czech beer. ;-)

This post has been edited by Jab: Aug 30 2008, 07:09 PM

[Baronius]

Baronius: I must say, that I don't consider other modding sites as centers of propaganda and arrogance. It's always about people.

True. Sometimes one unintentionally generalizes in his or her speech (in his or her wording), but I tried not to make that mistake. I always used the word "certain developers" (because that is what I believe: it's definitely not all G3 modders), and not "the G3 site', "all G3 developers" and similar. It's another matter that a site's most important members can be the same as those who act in such an unacceptable way, of course.

[DavidW]

Okay, so two quick points:

1) I think it would be silly for anyone to suggest that this site doesn't host good mods (and I hope no-one is making that suggestion). Grey Clan and Tower of Deception are, by common consent, excellent. Improved Anvil has a huge fan base who regard it as having transformed their BG2 experience. NEJ and TS I hear less of, but many people swear by them. Personally I've never played any of them - ToD and TGC are my kind of mod and I'll doubtless play them soon; the others, less so - but I think the evidence from player reports is pretty conclusive. Personally, I participate in these debates partly out of intellectual interest but largely because I think the people concerned have earned the right to be taken seriously. That in turn is largely because they've produced stable, serious, professional mods. Kudos.

2) Since (for my sins) I'm currently involved in moderating G3, I feel some need to respond to comments on it. I do think that those who think there's a double standard are (innocently) mistaken. There isn't, as it happens, a "SCS sucks" thread, but if there was, no-one would close it down. There are, I think, a couple of "fixpack sucks" threads from a while back; there's been at least one "G3 sucks" thread that I can think of, I hope that it's the case that things get dealt with even-handedly and with a very light touch. Example: I split that IA thread because I thought the random anti-BWL vitriol had no place on a thread in "mod discussion" which purportedly was about what people think about IA. The split thread now lives in G3's "random discussion" section, where people are welcome to say what they like within (very broadly construed) reason. The original thread contains some pretty harsh criticism about IA, but hopefully it's still on topic.