Riskbreaker info request Options

[rbeverjr]

Looking at the riskbreaker kit, I suspect that the riskbreaker is generally inferior to the fighter and fighter kits early on in the game (the time when I have the most difficulty). He'll either have poor AC or require potions/battle buffs (and still not have great AC). Late in the game, I suppose the riskbreaker will become more interesting once he has better AC and his special super power. I don't recall ever seeing anyone who has said they will have a riskbreaker in their group. Can someone who has played the riskbreaker comment on this kit?

I notice that quick was mentioned twice in the description of the kit. From that, I would have expected him to have the ability to haste or improve haste himself. However, he doesn't really seem any quicker than any other fighter. Instead he can Slow/Hold monsters if they are unlucky on their saves.

Please note that this post is not meant as a criticism on this kit. As I have never played this kit, I don't feel that I have the experience/information to critically evaluate it.

[Sikret]

Looking at the riskbreaker kit, I suspect that the riskbreaker is generally inferior to the fighter and fighter kits early on in the game (the time when I have the most difficulty). He'll either have poor AC or require potions/battle buffs (and still not have great AC). Late in the game, I suppose the riskbreaker will become more interesting once he has better AC and his special super power. I don't recall ever seeing anyone who has said they will have a riskbreaker in their group. Can someone who has played the riskbreaker comment on this kit?

I intend to have a Riskbreaker NPC in my next run-through. I can't comment on the degree of its power and usefulness for now.

I notice that quick was mentioned twice in the description of the kit. From that, I would have expected him to have the ability to haste or improve haste himself.

He does! Quote from IA'a readme:

- Gains "Improved Haste" at level 11 and every 6 levels afterwards.

However, he doesn't really seem any quicker than any other fighter. Instead he can Slow/Hold monsters if they are unlucky on their saves.

The Slow/Hold abilities have been removed in the kit's latest version. The kit's most recent description is attached to IA's readme. (The Imp. Haste ability existed even in previous versions though.)

This post has been edited by Sikret: Jan 30 2008, 08:42 AM

[lroumen]

The riskbreaker would make an excellent two-weapon fighter, or if you want some defense, you can make it work with single weapon as well. Thing is, single weapon fighting is only useful to have if you also use a bow or crossbow and since riskbreakers cannot use those, well.... I'd stick to two-weapon fighting.

I would have liked to change a vanilla NPC into a riskbreaker, but I'm not certain whether it would be possible (plus many of them do not fit all the requirements).


My thoughts on how to use one:

Offensively:
- Two-weapon fighting
- Blunt: Club (or less likely, Flail or Warhammer)
- Slashing: Katana/Longsword (and less likely, Bastard Sword)
- If piercing: Short sword
- 5th character slot for defending the rear. Will not be sighted first and hence can walk into battles more cautiously.

Defensively:
- Shield amulet for additional defense (probably bought in Trademeet)
- Some protection rings
- Defensive belt or strength enhancing belt
- Potions of invisibility for defense (they drop in bundles!)

As long as you can keep him sped up he'll do tons of damage.

This post has been edited by lroumen: Jan 30 2008, 08:39 AM

[rbeverjr]

I'm wonder if the Kensai (with improved haste from team mage) will do more damage than the riskbreaker, Iroumen. Have you used a riskbreaker?

Sorry Sikret that I got the particulars on the riskbreaker wrong. I just referred to the link in your signature. You might want to update that.

[lroumen]

I have yet to play one, but I decided to give the Vagrant a try. I always take the in-game NPCs along so I didn't make a multiplayer character for the party.
I would like to create a riskbreaker out of one of the in-game NPCs though.


The riskbreaker seems less powerful in damage than a Kensai, but he does have the advantage of having more critical hits. This may well add up to equal a Kensais damage.
The bonus of being able to Improve Haste oneself does mean that the party mages can memorise some other beneficial spells. I also think that defensively with blur, the riskbreaker is a bit safer than a Kensai.... but the lack of helmet-wear is concerning.

[rbeverjr]

As far as damage is concerned, I think the Kensai is top dog over all classes in IA - at least while he lives . At high levels, he will hit 95% of the time generally, but I prefer using Hardiness+Critical Strike+Improved Haste which results in 10 attacks (grandmastery patch dual wielding the IA shortsword) doing double damage and hitting 100% of the time. The extra damage that the kensai gets at high level is nice too; although, it is less noticeable in IA because of the high resistances of the monsters. The disadvantage of the kensai is he can be fragile if you don't give him some attention in outfitting him, buffing him, and trying to keep those buffs going.

I find the riskbreaker interesting. As an armorless warrior, it is natural to compare him to the kensai. I think the riskbreaker will be as fragile as the kensai early on (or incur considerable expense for potions or considerable nuisance for extra battle buff of ghost armor or such - he is immune to spirit armor). It appears that his defense improves later, but I doubt his offense will ever equal the kensai. The 15% increase in critical threat range doesn't make up for the kensai's THAC0 bonus against the hard targets of IA. Again, this is only my speculation based on the kit description.

I was hoping for some input from people who have played the riskbreaker. My general impression is that he needs a little better defense, particularly early on, to be a desirable option compared to the kensai (a great hammer if you have a suitable tank anvil) or traditional tank (such as the berserker or barbarian).

[lroumen]

Critical Strike does not last very long and if used at the wrong time it can be rendered quite useless. Granted, a Kensai with Critical Strike cannot be beaten in damage.

Without Critical Strike, we would have to make a calculation to see whether the Riskbreaker increased critical hits beat the Kensai thac0 and damage. Probably not, but the Riskbreaker may still be quite good considering that Critical hits don't have an AC check.

[rbeverjr]

Critical Strike does not last very long and if used at the wrong time it can be rendered quite useless. Granted, a Kensai with Critical Strike cannot be beaten in damage.

Without Critical Strike, we would have to make a calculation to see whether the Riskbreaker increased critical hits beat the Kensai thac0 and damage. Probably not, but the Riskbreaker may still be quite good considering that Critical hits don't have an AC check.

I have experience with the kensai. I played one as the hero through IA 4.2. In IA 4.2, I installed all the mods that Sikret suggested, and one of those mods extended the THAC0 charts if I recall. I know that my kensai rarely missed in ToB and even hit the hard targets in SoA much more often than the other fighters. The mathematical formula for the comparison of two classes damage is relatively easy to make. The comparison will vary with the target's AC and can be plotted. There are already computer programs available to do such comparisons. What that comparison doesn't tell you is how often during play will the kensai miss and the crit strike of the vagrant hit and does this happen often enough to matter. (Or it doesn't answer this question unless you know the quantity and ACs of all your opponents.) I found that PfMW and Absolute Immunity are far more frustrating than AC to the kensai. Personally, I am confident that the kensai has the most effective offense.

What I do wonder is just how much a liability is the riskbreaker at low levels. I also wonder if at high levels his special abilities are enough to make him a superior choice to other fighter types. I would say - maybe. I'm actually contemplating using a riskbreaker in ToB for a while just to try him out. (However, as I am doing so many different things now a days instead of just playing IA, it will likely be months before my game progresses to ToB.) Unfortunately, it seems that no one has actually used this class to advise the rest of us concerning its potential.

In contrast, almost everyone, myself included, jumped on the vagrant bandwagon. I imagine everyone did it for similar reasons to me: (1) get to experience more cool quests; (2) vagrant is a tough character; (3) vagrant gets to use some super IA items; and (4) vagrant gets a free super summons. It's hard to beat that many advantages. However, if Layeene attacks my vagrant like it attacked my kensai in IA4.2, I expect my vagrant to die just like my kensai did. I'll have to ponder tactics on that one. The Twisted Rune encounter seemed easiest handled by a multiclass mage, but surely a fighter or ranger hero can weather the storm too. (Last time the kensai hero hid while my sorcerer visited with Layeene. I've heard that you can't hide in IA5.) ...but I will post the Twisted Rune topic in another thread if I have problems.

[coaster]

There is also one other major advantage the kensai has over the riskbreaker - the former can dual class. If you can protect your kensai when he has dualled at some insanely high level (eg. 39/40 dual class to mage) then his power will far outstrip the riskbreaker. Presumably the changes to the XP tables (which act to weaken multi-classes) will not apply to dual classed characters (since they are effectively 2 successive single class chars).

[Sikret]

I think the riskbreaker will be as fragile as the kensai early on (or incur considerable expense for potions or considerable nuisance for extra battle buff of ghost armor or such - he is immune to spirit armor).

Ghost Armor spell targets at self. It can't be cast on any other character. The only buffing spell for a better AC is Riskbreaker's own Blur. Of course, he can use potions of defense and Invulnerability. At high levels, however, a riskbreaker will have a much better natural AC compared to the Kensai (remember that a natural good AC is not dispellable and is consequently much more reliable than an AC granted by buffing spells such as Spirit Armor or potions).

The kensai has much better THAC0 and damage bonus; whereas a riskbreaker makes many more critical hits (more critical hits can be considerable advantages in IA).

Also, as Iroumen noted, the ability to cast Imp. Haste at self mean the party mage has the oppotunity to save one important 6th level spell for a different use.

Of course, these are all theoretical speculations as I have not tried the kit in practice for an entire IA game yet. (Will do for the next run-through)

[Sikret]

There is also one other major advantage the kensai has over the riskbreaker - the former can dual class. If you can protect your kensai when he has dualled at some insanely high level (eg. 39/40 dual class to mage) then his power will far outstrip the riskbreaker.

Do you mean playing a Kensai till 39th level and then dualling him to mage ? There is no time and enough xp in the whole game to reactivate your first class if you do so.

Presumably the changes to the XP tables (which act to weaken multi-classes) will not apply to dual classed characters (since they are effectively 2 successive single class chars).

The new level progression tables apply to single class characters as well. They will affect multi-class characters moreseriously because they need double xp for levelling up in each class, but the tables are the same for single class characters too.

The major difference in favor of single class characters is that they require less xp to start gaining HLAs.

[coaster]

Do you mean playing a Kensai till 39th level and then dualling him to mage ? There is no time and enough xp in the whole game to reactivate your first class if you do so.

Yes, I accept you would have to play with a very small party in order to do so (which would probably cause even more difficulty - with IA installed I'm no longer convinced that the higher levels you can reach with a small party outweigh the benefits of having sufficient number of fighters & divine/arcane spellcasters for all the buffing/debuffing required).

It wasn't really a serious suggestion, just an example to show the maximum potential power of the dual class with no XP cap

[Mongerman]

While I'm a big fan of kensai myself for roleplaying reasons, the fact is, when you do the sums, they pale in comparison to berserkers. Lets compare a lvl 21 kensai with a berserker with gauntlets of weapon expertise. Same str, proficiencies, so the only bonus the kensai gets is +7 dmg and thaco.

Gauntlets of weapon expertise give +2 dmg, so kensai is doing +5 dmg per hit compared to kensai
Gauntlets of weapon expertise give extra 1/2 attack per round, so berserker has 8 attacks over 2 rounds compared to kensai 7 attacks over 2 rounds (assume two handed weapon)

7x5=35

Extra attack of berserker at 22 str and GM will cause roughly 25-30 dmg

So a berserker does only 5-10 points less of dmg over 2 rounds, but has much greater survibility.

Then again, a f/m will probably be able to take down a berseker and kensai at the same time as well

[Sikret]

Then again, a f/m will probably be able to take down a berseker and kensai at the same time as well

Interesting comparison!

What about 2 F/Ms against 1 Berserker + 1 Sorcerer (all four with the same amount of xp)?

I guess I vote for the second team, though it may also depend on the amount of xp and some other factors (ex: does the sorcerer have Improved Alacrity and an 18 Wisdom to use wish spells efficiently? What kind of equipments do they have? etc.)

[Mongerman]

I was talking about characters with around 3.5 million XP, since the deciding factor for the F/M is PFMW. With 2 -3 castings with contingencies and improve haste, he should be able to take down at least the kensai first, then take down the berseker with mirror image and stoneskin.

Perhaps we could make a split topic for this showdown =)

This post has been edited by Mongerman: Feb 1 2008, 02:23 PM

[rbeverjr]

While I'm a big fan of kensai myself for roleplaying reasons, the fact is, when you do the sums, they pale in comparison to berserkers. Lets compare a lvl 21 kensai with a berserker with gauntlets of weapon expertise. Same str, proficiencies, so the only bonus the kensai gets is +7 dmg and thaco.

Gauntlets of weapon expertise give +2 dmg, so kensai is doing +5 dmg per hit compared to kensai
Gauntlets of weapon expertise give extra 1/2 attack per round, so berserker has 8 attacks over 2 rounds compared to kensai 7 attacks over 2 rounds (assume two handed weapon)

7x5=35

Extra attack of berserker at 22 str and GM will cause roughly 25-30 dmg

So a berserker does only 5-10 points less of dmg over 2 rounds, but has much greater survibility.

Then again, a f/m will probably be able to take down a berseker and kensai at the same time as well

In my opinion, the kensai is more beneficial to a team in IA4.2 than a berserker. His offense is clearly superior, because he hits the hard targets. Who cares about the vanilla mooks? Also, I get nine attacks with my kensai before L21, if I recall correctly. In IA5, it may be a different story if I can not keep the buffs on the kensai.

I am also not interested in one vs one combat but team optimization myself. In IA5, my team will likely stay 5 or 6 members.

This post has been edited by rbeverjr: Feb 1 2008, 04:09 PM