IAv5 experiences Options

[Mongerman]

Shadan, could you share some experiences on how melee enemies switch targets, for example do they attack the one with the highest ac, or the one dealing the most dmg to them etc etc?

[Shadan]

Sorry, I really don't know. I just noticed some enemies instanly changed their targets from my blade, when she casted PfMW. Also I saw many other target changes after 1-2 rounds when my character was protected with Stonekin.

[Sikret]

Shadan, could you share some experiences on how melee enemies switch targets, for example do they attack the one with the highest ac, or the one dealing the most dmg to them etc etc?

Conditions of shifting targets are various depending on the enemy type and his attack mode. Some examples:

- An enemy whose weapon is ineffective against you, will shift target
- An assassin trying to backstab or a warrior with Critical Strike (HLA) will try to pick a target who is not stoneskinned or mirror imaged (if possible).
- A monster whose claw causes "Hold" effect will try to pick a target who doesn't have Free Action on himself (if possible to find such a target; otherwise, he will attack nonetheless).
- A monster with (say) piercing damage type will try to pick a target whose resistance to Pierce damage is not very high.
- Sometimes they just randomly shift target to make any sort of pre-calculation difficult for the player.

One important point in IA is that conditions of shifting targets are set in a way NOT to be exploitable by the player. (Some other tactical mods have this problem: For example, they script the enemy to attack the Worst AC target or a mage target in such a strict way that the player can easily exploit it. For example, the player could keep the enemy at a doorway with a good AC fighter and a mage just behind the fighter. Since the enemy sees the mage, he tries to attack him but since his way is blocked by the fighter, he just stands there doing nothing till killed. Similar exploits are possible by surrounding the enemy with summons. That kind of exploits are very effectively blocked in Improved Anvil. Enemies realize whether they can reach and hit a target or not.)

Of course, as shadan noted as well, not all enemies are equally intelligent.

Edited for typos

[Sikret]

@shadan

What makes the Ancient Tome challenging is actually the time limit to complete its battles. If the time limit expires, the player will not gain the maximum possible treasure from the tome. Adding even one single wave to the tome will make it impossible for 13th-14th (or even 15th) level parties to complete it within the time limit.

Of course, I can increase the time limit and add new waves if the majority of the players believe that it can make it more interesting.

[Shadan]

Time limit? Do you mean you cannot rest between fight, right? Not some irl time, I hope. I don't know if I did it in time if not rest is counted. I just made a very small prebuff (long lasting buffs only) and pressed tome, killed, pressed tome, killed again etc. I didn't rest and those fights were easy. Last spider wave was a bit challenge since I was not prepared for them, I didn't remember from my 4.2 run what types and how many enemies will come. So I hadn't Chaotic Command and Free Action up, but I killed them without too much trouble. I had most of my spells with mage, sorcerer and priest at end of battle, my chars were almost unhurted, maybe I casted 1 Greater Resto or 1 Heal, I don't remember now.
Can you at least PM to me what time limit is exactly there and what type of rewards?
So upgrade depends on what kind of time limits is exactly there. Anyway I would suggest some more waves even if costs longer time limit.

[Sikret]

Time limit? Do you mean you cannot rest between fight, right? Not some irl time, I hope.

Resting in between the battles will surely make the time limit expire; but it's not just about resting, there is an actual timer working there and will cause the limit to expire if the player is not fast enough.

In my own game, I managed to complete the battles very marginally in the time limit. If there was one more wave, I couldn't complete it.

Since you have done the battles fast, I think that you have also managed to complete the battles within the intended time limit. Nonetheless, I will send you the PM you requested.

[Shadan]

Thanks Sikret! I did it in time then. But I am not sure how much time left for me in that fight. Anyway, my vote is for 1-2 more waves even with longer time limit.

[Shadan]

Some new fights:

I forgot to mention Irenicus fight in Spellhold. There were two very irritating things in this fight.
1. I had to endure his SI: Div. since my dispel was not enough high to remove it. And those worthless "helpers" always surrounded Irenicus, so my fighters were not able to reach him. This annoying feature prevented me to do usual tactic: 1 fighter near to the mage, others are farer to spare them from Remove Magic, triggers. AoE spells. I had to keep all 4 fighters near to him and prevent those crazy ones to approach to Irenicus...
2. My comp. and game is always slowed down when many spell effects (SI, Mirror Image) or many enemies are there. I don't know why... In my 4.2 run I thought it is caused by bottomless bag of holding mod. But now it is not installed. I decreased video performance (only kept resolution 1124x768), but my cursor still slow, my fights still slow. It was same at Sahuagin Prince with many corpses or at 1st drow ambush with many SI and Blade Barrier (see these later). Any help would be appreciated.

Sahuagin Prince:

SPOILER!

I started to kill him, he was almost dead when I realized he summons more weaves of snakes. So I decided to keep him alive, and kill as many weaves as I can. My blade kept the front at Prince, while my fighters killed snakes. I killed more than 10 weaves, when I sarted to run out of spells, so I killed Prince. I am sure if I would rest and memorize only for this fight, I can kill 30 weaves... 1 weave is 30k XP. I suggest snakes after 3rd weave shouldn't worth XP.

First drow ambush:

SPOILER!

Yes, it was hard. It took appr. 8 reload at me. 3 drow priestess, 2 drow mages and 2 ghost spiders. Ghost spiders summon other spiders at start, and priestess summon fallen devas, which means a lot of hard enemies. It was clear at 1st try I am not able to kill them without running. Free Action is useless when 5 casters are there who can dispel your buffs easily, and Impr. Web always hold 1-3 chars from my party. So I tried to summon 3 skeleton warriors, a swanmay and a spider from figurine. I hasted them, buffed my party, my blade initiated the fight and run back to my party when Impr. Web was casted. Summons were not too good, since my fighters were not able to reach their target fast and when spiders took too much time, priestess and mages approached (fallen devas were stucked in Impr. Web for a while. ), started to dispel my protections, and too many Emotion, Confusion, Gr. Command, stun etc. landed on my party. In time, there were only 1-2 character who was able to act. So I changed tactitc. No summons, fire res to all chars. When spiders approached, fighters started to kill whisper spiders 1st (cause of their annoying whisper) and ghost spiders 2nd (they can resummon the whole branch again if they are alive too long), while my sorc and conjurer spammed Sunfire. So I burned down spiders very fast, after 2+2 Sunfire small ones and big ones were dead. Priestess, mages, devas arrived. My blade dispelled buffs from priestesses (yes, Shieled of Archon doesn't protect from Breach or Dispel), 2 fighters killed priestesses, 2 of them killed remaining medium spiders. Sorc and Conj Ruby on 1 mage. When mage's SI was down, 1 of my fighter attacked him, 2 Breach and he was dead. Other fighters killed priestesses and devas very fast. At end I left only 1 mage, but my blade, priest and conjurer was out of fight cause of stun, emotion etc. But my vagrant and fighter killed him after 2 Ruby and 1 Breach from my sorcerer. Was not easy fight...

My current party:
character (weapons) hardest enemy killed kill (XP) % in party
Vagrant lvl 16 (Phosphorous + FoA+3) Mithril Golem 35 (36) %
Swash 10 > fighter 16 (Harmonium halberd, cleric staff+3, Lilalcor) shadow dragon 36 (40) %
Blade lvl 19 (Short Sword+3 + Belm/Dak'kon's Blade or Melf's MM) adamantite golem 10 (6) %
Ranger 7 > priest 17 (Treefolk's Arm+4 + Club+3/Shield) gem golem 8 (10) %
Sorcerer 16 amber golem 6 (4) %
Conjurer 16 Nilthiri 2 (1) %

[Shadan]

I finished the Underdark. The 2 drow ambush were the hardest battles for me. I wrote about 1st one earlier, 2nd one is hard cause of
SPOILER!

all buffs are dispelled at start.

Master Brain was not too dificult, but I encountered with a strange thing:

SPOILER!

My goal was to kill as many golems as I can. So I waited all summons from elemental golem, then I wanted to kill him. I refreshed haste after every dispel from master brain. I thought when haste is dispelled, it doesn't cause fatigued statement. Well this was not true, my chars became fatigued after a while. What else I was not able to kill elemental golems because my fighters were not able to hit them. When I checked combat text why, I found roll-(5-10) instead of the usual roll+(6-12) numbers. So it seems fatigued penalties from different hastes are cumulative. Does anyone know what is the exact penalty from fatigued condition?
I reloaded, did the fight without haste at all. I killed elemental golem, and I realized brain golems spawn endlessly if I don't kill the Master Brain. Sadly my game was slowed down very much cause of corpses, and it was so slow to wait for next brain golems so I lost my patience, and killed the Master Brain after appr. 6-8 brain golems.

Dracolich was not too hard, imho was very good fight. Took 3 reload to understand fully all details of this fight, then I killed him. Happily my sorcerer and conjurer have got their 1st HLAs just before the dracolich, so I started Improved Alacrity with them. Summons were very handy in this fight.

Demonknights were not easy, but I used the brave method: charge and kill as many as you can with your fighters.
SPOILER!

I was not really able to spot which one has hardiness and which one hasn't, since their other buffs caused many graphic animation. So I killed the nearest 1st. There was 2-3 tries, when my buffs was dispelled, and they killed 1-2 of my chars with a single trigger. If any character dies, game over for me, I don't use Raise Dead. I use it only if I had 20+ reloads in that fight and for example one chars died at 21st attempt. It was only 1 fight of this type in 4.2 run, and none in v5 run.
So I killed them apprt. at 4th try. The end was very annoying, since last one feared my vagrant with a symbol just before he died. My Vagrant had appr. 20 HP, there were 2 Inc. Cloud on the field, and my only character (the conjurer) who still had a Remove/Resist Fear was behind Inc. Clouds with less than 10 HP. My vagrant started to run in the room like a crazy, and I just was able to watch when he kills himself. Happily fear and Inc. Clouds faded soon and the battle was victory.

So I left Underdark, talked with elves, and oh well 3 messangers waited for me from my keeps (mage, warrior, bard). When I traveled to the city, gyths attacked my party. I was without spells, low HP etc. so end came very fast in this battle. So I reloaded, rested, memorized and went to sleep, since there was midnight.
I am eagerly waiting to kill those gyths and forging some new cool equipment.

[Shadan]

I did almost all SoA, I am in elven city now. I did all quests and fights except Twisted Rune, Viper Queen, Orcus and the new ranger quests. I did 1st and 2nd level in WK also. I am planning to kill dragon in elven city, and wait with Tree of Life and Hell till I do all other quests and probably 1 more level in WK. Sadlt Delon havent appeared yet despite some time passed after I killed Shade Lord. Hope it is not broken, or I haven’t missed him somehow.
The game was surprisingly easy after I came out from Underdark. I am sure next time I will do Shade Lord, Teshal, Firkraag, pirates in the dock, barbarian attackers in bard stronghold, Troll King & Queen before Spellhold even if I will get Improved Spellhold for high level. These fights was so easy in chapter 6... Samia & co was easy also, but I am not sure if I can do it before Spellhold without many reloads. Same with sewer party... Both group are too hard in chapter 3, but too easy in chapter 6.
Fights which were good in chapter 6:
Improved Slaver HQ (cause of traps there + ring guardians from The Four + a surprise fight there)
post Firkraag assassin quest
Teshal together with Skeleton Grandlords and elemental lich
Trademeet Tomb cause of antimagic
Chromatic Demon (WK 1st and 2nd level is easy, however you cannot finish 1st level in chapter 3 probably due to Spider Queen)

As Sikret wrote: money is big concern. To tell the truth I am a bit frustrated by money. According to Sikret, you will have to chose among 2 paths: you spend money on potions or on upgrades. I have never bought any strength or healing potions (only some Magic Shielding and Prot. from Magic), what else I sold almost all healing potions what I have found. I bought only some important spells and items, always with max. possible reputation and with 24 Cha. I always sold items on highest possible price. I am almost finished SoA as you see and despite this there are many important or mediocre important upgrades which I was not able to do due to lack of money. Here is a short list (maybe not full since I am writing this at my work from memory): Supreme Shelter, Poseidon’s Wrath, Hammer of Thor, Warblade +5, Improved Cat and Spider figurine, Robe of Elemental Resistance, Cutthroat+5. I did 1 Cloak of Protection +3, but If I would skip that, I could make only 1 item from the previous list. And you cannot do Cloak +3 in ToB, so you have to do it in SoA. Maybe prices/drops are too nerfed in v5 compared to my v4.2 run. Or maybe scrolls from mage stronghold gave so much money in 4.2 to me, so I didn’t have this kind of problem. All in all I think some prices should be a bit lower in v6...

[Sikret]

Sadlt Delon havent appeared yet despite some time passed after I killed Shade Lord. Hope it is not broken, or I haven’t missed him somehow.

I'm sure that it's not broken; but I fear that you might have missed him somehow. Delon sometimes appears offscreen in a bad way; you should always keep an open eye for him or revisit Umar Hills regularly. In my game, when I exited underdark, he was standing somewhere behind the trees. The elf and Delon tried to initiate dialogue simultaneously and I fear that something similar may have happened in your game and you may have missed him and lost your stronghold. Go to Umar Hills immediately and make sure that you have not lost your Cabin. Talk to the mayor and also check the underdark exit for Delon.

[Vardaman]

All in all I think some prices should be a bit lower in v6...

I agree, the prices of most upgrades increased dramatically for v5 while the sell prices of gems (like the ones you get from Gem golems) dropped. The price multiplier for selling at the Sahuagin temple was also removed. The way it stands now, you may have to wait until TOB to make some of your upgrades.

Some, like the improved Boots of the Ranger Lord, cost 250K+ just for improved Haste and a few points of Dex. Who's going to ever forge that? The last upgrade is just gravy and shouldn't cost 125K itself.

And the chunks of Amber should be worth more than 600 gold. They're tougher than Coin Golems and yet you get less gp for killing them.

This post has been edited by Vardaman: Feb 20 2008, 01:59 PM

[Shadan]

Agree with Vardaman... And Cloak of Res +3 should be able to forged in ToB also.

[Sikret]

There is a big number of possible item-upgrades in the list, but it doesn't mean that you should be able to practically forge all (or even most) of them. You need to think and choose. This is what makes it interesting and what adds to the game's replaying value even further. This is my opinion about the item-upgrade portion of the mod. With different party compositions and different general strategies you choose for yourself, you find some of the items more useful or appropriate than others and you decide to forge them and leave the other ones for your next run-through when you play with a different party.

PS: Amber golems give more xp than Gem golems. Do they also have to give more gp?

[Shaitan]

I like the way Sikret handled the huge amount of GP in the game. I always found it dubious to carry around 400k GP - that must weigh a lot.

[lroumen]

I've rarely had more than 100k at the end of the game. I simply never sold anything but rather stashed it all... all those +1 and +2 weapons and armors.... completely useless lol.

[Shadan]

Personally I think ppl like new improved items... I like them too... It is not so big fun when I cannot forge MANY of them. If you don't have money for a FEW ones, and you can chose the important ones, that is OK, but now I have a VERY long list of unforged items. Put The Truth and IMproved Ring of Gaxx to that list. What is really frustrating, many from these list should be the main weapons for my fighters...
So imho there should be cheaper prices or more sellable loot in v6...
About amber golems: yes harder mobs should mean more XP AND better loot.

[Shaitan]

Personally I think ppl like new improved items... I like them too... It is not so big fun when I cannot forge MANY of them. If you don't have money for a FEW ones, and you can chose the important ones, that is OK, but now I have a VERY long list of unforged items. Put The Truth and IMproved Ring of Gaxx to that list. What is really frustrating, many from these list should be the main weapons for my fighters...
So imho there should be cheaper prices or more sellable loot in v6...
About amber golems: yes harder mobs should mean more XP AND better loot.

I guess one of the main reasons Sikret did what he did with prices is the overall playability. If said party is capable of forging several deadly weapons it could be turned into a killing machine: It's (probably) about game balance If you've tried Item Upgrade (Weimers) You should know, that having too many uber weapons make the game a walk in the park.

[Shadan]

I guess one of the main reasons Sikret did what he did with prices is the overall playability. If said party is capable of forging several deadly weapons it could be turned into a killing machine: It's (probably) about game balance If you've tried Item Upgrade (Weimers) You should know, that having too many uber weapons make the game a walk in the park.

I don't think so... Well not in IA I mean. I had all upgrade in my 4.2 run, and there were some good hard fights in ToB, what else EDE was very hard despite of all improved items. So I think I forge ALL items, IA is still not a walk... But I don't want to forge ALL what my chars can and want use, I want to forge... well say 80 % of them, which are most important for me.

[Shaitan]

what else EDE was very hard despite of all improved items. So I think I forge ALL items, IA is still not a walk... But I don't want to forge ALL what my chars can and want use, I want to forge... well say 80 % of them, which are most important for me.

Well actually I wouldn't know about that as I haven't tried it, I spoke out of experience from the original game. I guess it is perhap just a mater of taste