A new 6th level spell (not the poll yet) Options

[Sikret]

Consider this as nother new idea and comment on it. I will ask a question at the end of this post as well.

Unraise Undead (Necromancy)
Level:6
Range: Touch
Duration: Instantaneous
Casting Time: 6
Area of Effect: One Undead Creature
Saving Throw: None

By means of this powerful spell, the mage uses his powerful necromantic touch to disturb the negative forces floating inside an undead creature. The spell bypasses the target's magic resistance (if any) and inflicts a huge amount of damage, which varies depending on the udead type:

Lesser Undead Creatures upto (and including) Skeleton Lords: 10D8

Skeleton Grandlords: 6D8

Liches, Master Vampires and Vampire Lords: 5D8
=================

This spell can be great use for when facing Skeleton Lords and specially Skeleton Grandlords (the latter are invulnerable to +3 weapons).

The question:

If we add this spell as a normal 6th level spell, even though it is of necromancy school, all other mages will be able to cast it except illusionists who are of the school opposite to necromancy. However, one may argue that such a spell is probably too necromantic to allow it to be cast by normal mages or sorcerers not to mention specialists in other schools. If you also have a similar impression about this powerful necromatic spell, I have an alternative suggestion:

I can make this spell, but instead of making it a regular 6th level spell, I can add it as a special ability (3 times/day) to Amulet of Hades. In that case, only necromancers and only those who have forged the amulet will have access to it. I can even increase the damage dices to D10s (rather than D8s in that case).

So, please comment on two things:

1- What's your general opinion of the spell?

2- If you like it, do you want it as the replacement for Mislead spell or do you prefer it to be added to Amulet of Hades?

Edited for typos

This post has been edited by Sikret: Jan 23 2008, 10:17 AM

[Shadan]

I think this should be good spell. Imho it would be better to leave heavy undead type spells for clerics and necromancers, so I vote for Amulet of Hades. I am really sad that this spell is much much better than Bolt of Glory. It does more damage and bypass magic resistance. Personally I would be happy if you could make the caster cleric type much better, since in IA clerics are usually dual or multi as secondary warrior and heal bot. Sadly all of high level cleric spells do crap damage, don't bypass through MR etc. Would be fine if at least against undeads, and maybee against fiends, clerics could be a reasonable casters.

[Sikret]

Bolt of Glory has two advantages over this spell (which may compensate its disadvantages):

1- It can be cast from distance
2- It affects all kinds of creatures (not just the undead)

However, making a clerical version of "Unraise Undead" (BTW, how is this name?) may be a good idea (perhaps for a new clerical kit or even a general sell).

[Raven]

I think this should be good spell. Imho it would be better to leave heavy undead type spells for clerics and necromancers, so I vote for Amulet of Hades.

I agree, the spell seems too specialised to be cast by all mages (except illusionists) and sorcerers.

I think (as others have said) the illusion school has suffered the loss of several spells now; I don't think the new spell needs to be from the illusion school but I think it should be something an illusionist can at least cast (i.e. not necromancy).

[Shadan]

There is a DnD 3 and 3.5 spell, level 6 spell if I am correct: Undeath to Death.

[Sikret]

There is a DnD 3 and 3.5 spell, level 6 spell if I am correct: Undeath to Death.

Send its description if you can, shadan!

[Sikret]

I think (as others have said) the illusion school has suffered the loss of several spells now; I don't think the new spell needs to be from the illusion school but I think it should be something an illusionist can at least cast (i.e. not necromancy).

Well, to be honest with you, nerfing the illusionist school has been one of my programmed intentions since long ago. Illusionist is the only school of magic which can be used in creating multi-class characters. This fact had given the school an unfair edge over other schools. A gnome F/I can memorize one spell per level more than an F/M. This was too much in my opinion and I started a long-term program to nerf the illusionist school. That's why any time I find an opportunity and have an option, I prefer to add necromantic spells to the game.

[Sikret]

There is a DnD 3 and 3.5 spell, level 6 spell if I am correct: Undeath to Death.

Send its description if you can, shadan!

Thanks, shadan! I received your PM containing the spell's description. I reply here so that noone else sends the spell's description again.

As you mentioned, the pnp version of the spell is pointless for our purposes, though it has a nice name.

I'm not sure, however, whether it is a better name than "Unraise Undead". I still vote for "Unraise Undead", especially because it will prevent any possible confusion with the pnp spell.

[Arkain]

Honestly, I don't like that "Unraise Undead" name... I don't know why, but to me it sounds somewhat weird. Cheesy as if taken from some b-movie, maybe . One reason could be that I associate it with "Raise dead" or rather some sort of aggressive "Anti-Raise dead". Sounds very divine to me as well for that matter.
On the other hand I don't really have a good name to come up with. Maybe "Undo Undead" or something similar... although that's kinda the same. Bah...

[luan]

I have to agree that "Unraise Undead" sounds a little akward for native speakers. (No offense of course!)

How about "Eternal Rest", "Final Death", "Purge Undead", or "Slay Undead"?

[lroumen]

I would like to suggest calling it "Solar Touch" or something that involves the sun.

That way, it's name would be in line with the related spells" False Dawn, Sunray and Bolt of Glory.

This post has been edited by lroumen: Jan 24 2008, 09:08 AM

[Vardaman]

How about something simple like 'Disrupt Undead'?

There was also the 3rd edition spell 'Sever the Tie' that damaged undead.

[rbeverjr]

I think (as others have said) the illusion school has suffered the loss of several spells now; I don't think the new spell needs to be from the illusion school but I think it should be something an illusionist can at least cast (i.e. not necromancy).

Well, to be honest with you, nerfing the illusionist school has been one of my programmed intentions since long ago. Illusionist is the only school of magic which can be used in creating multi-class characters. This fact had given the school an unfair edge over other schools. A gnome F/I can memorize one spell per level more than an F/M. This was too much in my opinion and I started a long-term program to nerf the illusionist school. That's why any time I find an opportunity and have an option, I prefer to add necromantic spells to the game.

If you want to nerf illusion even more, then make mirror image NOT protect against area effect spells...

I think your new undead spell should be added to the cleric's spell list. I suggest for the name something like Slay Undead or Touch of the Sun (Solar suggests to me an angelic being).

While you are considering about reworking the spell list, I would love to see something better as a ninth level spell for debuffing than the nerfed spell strike. Personally, if Ruby Ray was a ninth level spell, I would still choose to memorize it. Conversely, if Spell Strike was a seventh level spell, I probably would not memorize it.

Edit: I propose as a ninth level spell Enhanced Ruby Ray. This is an area effect spell (5-foot radius) that will probably only get one creature but can get them even if they are invisible (provided that they don't move). It acts like the Warding Whip in that Ruby Ray will be applied to the selected area once each round for 3 rounds. I think this spell would be worthy of consideration for a spell slot where there are other good choices like Time Stop, Improved Alacrity, Dragon's Breath, Imprisonment, Chain Contingency, etc.

This post has been edited by rbeverjr: Jan 24 2008, 04:19 PM

[Sikret]

If you want to nerf illusion even more, then make mirror image NOT protect against area effect spells...

This is hard-coded. I can't do anything about it. However, if you had played IA v5 long enough (which I assume you have not), you would have seen that enemy spell casters give priority to dispelling Mirro Image and don't waste their Area spells on Mirrored characters.

I think your new undead spell should be added to the cleric's spell list. I suggest for the name something like Slay Undead or Touch of the Sun (Solar suggests to me an angelic being).

I will think about the name more. I will also probably add the spell to the Amulet of Hades rather than making it the replacement for Mislead.

By the way, thanks everyone for comments about the name.

While you are considering about reworking the spell list, I would love to see something better as a ninth level spell for debuffing than the nerfed spell strike.

Nerfed?

Have you seen the readme about SpellStrike? It's even improved compared to vanilla in v5. Spell Shield can't block it and it removes spell shield along with all other protective spells. It's true that it's still an abjuration spell, but it has some serious advantages too.

I propose as a ninth level spell Enhanced Ruby Ray. This is an area effect spell (5-foot radius)

Sorry, but making a protection removal spell which affects an area (even if a small area) rather than an individual is too cheesy. Such a thing will completely nullify the importance of Improved Invisibility in the game.

Actually, I have even fixed Improved Invisiblity to make sure that protection removal spells even if cast from scrolls won't affect the improved invisible creature.

[Sikret]

Honestly, I don't like that "Unraise Undead" name... I don't know why, but to me it sounds somewhat weird. Cheesy as if taken from some b-movie, maybe .

It's not taken from any movie. You are too quick in assuming and imagining things.

One reason could be that I associate it with "Raise dead" or rather some sort of aggressive "Anti-Raise dead".

This is exactly the reason for which I like the name and the reason I chose it.

Nonetheless, I will consider other suggestions presented so far.

This post has been edited by Sikret: Jan 25 2008, 03:36 PM

[rbeverjr]

I concede that you are right - mirror image is probably not so problematic in IA. A change would make it easier for the players early on - which I suppose you don't want even if it was possible. Mirror Image + Immunity Divination + PfMW is a very good defense when you have no chance of succeeding on Dispel Magic. The traditional solution (vanilla game) of bombing the invisible mage with area effect spells won't be effective. If IA did allow multiple spell immunities, then mirror image would be very problematic. Once the players have True Seeing, Dispel/Remove Magic (that works occasionally), Ruby Ray, etc. things become easier. But as I said, as the goal is to increase difficulty, I agree that MI is no problem in IA.

I realize spell strike was thrown a bone. I may (possibly) even allow my wizard to memorize it for the special occasions where it would provide a tactical advantage. From my experience in 4.2, I don't think that there are enough fo these occasions that spell strike is worthwhile for my sorcerer. I still maintain that in IA, ruby ray is the most important anti-buff spell. Thus, a level 7 spell is superior to a level 9 spell. If you don't like the area effect part, then the RR once per round for 3 rounds is still good in my opinion.

Finally, I wish you were as diplomatic in your replies as you are a fine coder and game designer...

[Sikret]

Finally, I wish you were as diplomatic in your replies as you are a fine coder and game designer...

I'm sorry for any part of my previous post which may have sounded rude. I assure you that it was not intentional.

Perhaps, the suggestion to make an enhanced Ruby Ray, which is an area spell, did affect my temper for a moment (you know that I hate cheese ).

Please, accept my apologies, rbeverjr!

[rbeverjr]

Finally, I wish you were as diplomatic in your replies as you are a fine coder and game designer...

I'm sorry for any part of my previous post which may have sounded rude. I assure you that it was not intentional.

Perhaps, the suggestion to make an enhanced Ruby Ray, which is an area spell, did affect my temper for a moment (you know that I hate cheese ).

Please, accept my apologies, rbeverjr!

Apology accepted. I try to believe the best in people, and do trust that you don't intend to be rude in your replies to me or anyone else. I would like to point out that referring to My suggestion as Cheese is not very nice, even if you are completely right. The spell could be overpowered with a 5-foot radius effect. I'm not sure about that as it is a level 9 spell, but you may be right. If you had said something like, "I think that the area effect ability of your suggestion makes the spell too powerful because ...." Then there is no way I could be offended by that.

I have spent many hours at IA (only just started Version 5; busy with other things), but I know that I have spent a LOT less time than other people. I also know that there are many people that are better players at IA than I am. So, I appreciate all efforts to educate me into a better player!

[Arkain]

Honestly, I don't like that "Unraise Undead" name... I don't know why, but to me it sounds somewhat weird. Cheesy as if taken from some b-movie, maybe .

It's not taken from any movie. You are too quick in assuming and imagining things.

That was supposed to be funny, hence the emoticon . I didn't seriously assume that.

One reason could be that I associate it with "Raise dead" or rather some sort of aggressive "Anti-Raise dead".

This is exactly the reason for which I like the name and the reason I chose it.

[...]

Aye, I thought so. Correct quick assumption, heh
Interesting enough it's possible to resurrect a destroyed undead creature in P&P. But at least I think that the spell doesn't, um, (un-)raise the undead creature. Instead it "disturb[s] the negative forces floating inside [it]" and therefore damages it. At least to me it doesn't sound as if the spell's trying to undo the undead status in itself. Undead creatures, in D&D at least, are composed of lots of negative energy, filling the "shell" with unlife, if I recall correctly. Thus disturbing this energy's flow would surely damage the creature. That's ok. But "raising" it would more likely convert the energy into positive energy, destroying the undead shell and "filling" it with life once more. Although that may be open to interpretation, of course.
That's the reason why I, personally, would like something along the lines of "Disrupt Undead" way more. But each to his own.
By the way, is it possible to make negative energy spells heal undead and vice versa? At least that's the way it's in P&P and it may be a nice addition if you don't think about balance first (as in "Simply punish them nasties with your cleric's Heal!" =/), that is.

This post has been edited by Arkain: Jan 25 2008, 10:46 PM

[luan]

Smite Undead! I like this name