A new 6th level spell (not the poll yet) Options

[Sikret]

Before I create the main poll to choose the replacement for Mislead spell, I want to gather suggestions to be the candidates and options of the poll. So, feel free to send your suggestions here.

So far, I have thought of three possible spells. My own favorite one (so far) is the third one below:

1- Moster Summoning 4:

Advantages: A classic 6th level spell form pnp. Easy to make and not controversial at all.

Disadvantages: There are already a few summoning spells among the 6th level spells; so this spell can hardly encourage the player to choose it.

2- Improved Enchanted Weapon:

An improved version of the 4th level spell, "Enchanted Weapon". This spell will create +4 weapons but for much shorter duration compared to the 4th level spell which creates +3 weapons which remain for a long time.

Advantages: This spell can be a great help for players who don't have +4 weapons for when they unexpectedly encounter an enemy who requires +4 (or better) weapons to hit. The scrolls of this spell can also be used as upgrade ingredients to forge powerful weapons.

Disadvantages: The spell will severely decrease the importance of +4 weapons and artifacts in the game. If every 12th level mage is capabale of fabricating +4 weapons, what's the significance of artifacts and relics. It will also decrease the significance of those powerful foes which are immune to +3 weapons. For these reasons, this choice is my least favorite one so far, but feel free to argue for it if you think it's a good choice.

3- Giant Strength:

An improved version of the second level spell, "Strength". This spell grants the strength of a giant type to the recipient for its duration or until dispelled successfully. A 12th level mage can raise the recipient's strength to the strength of a Hill giant (19); a 14th level mage can increase the strength to that of a Stone Giant (20); a 16th level mage can create the strength of a Frost Giant (21); an 18th level mage can increase the recipient's strength to that of a Fire Giant (22) and a 20th level mage can create the strength of a Cloud Giant (23).

Advantages: Potions of Giant Strength are relatively rare (compared to other types of potions) in the game and this spell can excellently work as a replacement for those rare potions.

Disadvantages: As the game proceeds, the party will have items which grant permanent giant strengths and this spell may gradually become less useful.

Please, comment on these options and also offer your own suggestions. After having enough discussions here and collecting the best possible options, I will create a final poll to decide over the new spell.

As in the case of previous similar threads for new spells, any suggestions for a new spell which can lower enemies' resistances (such as resistances to elemental and physical damage types) won't be accepted; so, please don't suggest that kind of spells.

This post has been edited by Sikret: Jan 8 2008, 10:23 AM

[Shadan]

1. Yes, there are some summons on lvl 6, no need more.
2. Agree with your comments on +4 weapons.
3. I would prefer this from 3 of them.

Anyway, you removed Simulacrum, Project Image and now you will remove Mislead. I think Illusion as school is getting to be very weak since no illusion spell at higher level. What about to give an illusion spell instead of Mislead and maybe some for higher level? For example like Shadow Evocation/Conjuration series in D&D 3.5. Basically you can cast any 1 or more level lower Evocation spell with a spell, but there if target makes save, he will see this is an illusion only and takes only partial damage.
So lvl 6 version in my version:
You can cast illusion version of the following spells:
Magic Missile, Burning Hands, Melf's Acid Arrow, Web, Flame Arrow, Lightning Bolt, Fireball, Hold person, Dire Charm, Slow, Emotion, Confusion, Ice Strom, Cone of Cold, Chaos, Domination, Feeblemind, Hold Monster, Sunfire.
If target saves vs. spell with -2, he can detect it is illusion, and both damage and duration is 1/4th of the original. Pls. note this is lvl 6 spell, so it should bypass the Globe of Inv. or decraese Spell Turning with 6 lvl etc. If target fails the save vs. spell, spell works as original spell, just counting as 6th lvl spell.

If we wants more illusion spells on higher level:
Lvl 7 version save vs. spell could be with -3. And spell should be including: Chain Lighning, Disintegrate, Flesh to Stones.
Lvl 8 version save vs. spell could be with -4. And spell should be including: Delayed Blast Fireball, Pismatic Spray, Power Word Stun.

About Impr. Strength spell:
I like this idea. I think if you do my illusion spell recommendation, you should do this spell also. Maybe not as 6th level spell, but as 7th level one.

Side note: There are a lot of very good 6th spell, but one thing always bothered me. PfMW always better than Mantle or Improved Mantle. At that time when u have 7th or 8th lvl spells, no enemy will attack you with nonmagical weapons, or at least no enemy who is any threat for you. So I would recommend to do Mantle as lvl 6 spells, Improved Mantle as lvl 7 and PofMW as lvl 8 (immune to all magical weapon till +5, but not against +6 (if there is any enemy in the game who strike with +6 weapon).

Ps: Sorry for off topic, you should split my post if you want.

[Clown]

Based on my experiences so far with my 5.0 run through which has involved an annoying re-load for this very reason I would back improved enchanted weapon as the new spell choice. This is as there are a few situations where you can trap your self into needing a +4 weapon to defeat an essential encounter or failing that have to re-load an earlier(in one case several hours of play earlier) save. In the two examples I experienced it was especially frustrating as I was quite capable of handling the encounters save for the fact that certain enemies were completely impervious to my attacks.
As for it decreasing the value of high quality items I think the effect could be kept under control by limiting the spells duration so it would have to be used intelligently in battle to give you a chance to hurt high level foes but offer no real replacement for a +4 weapon.
Finally I think out of the three spells offered this is the only one that offers something suffeciently different and useful to actually compete for a level 6 slot were we already have the almost essential imp. haste, PfMW and PfME not to mention chain lightning.

Anyhow thats my take on it.

[lroumen]

Monster Summoning IV: I don't think that players are waiting for more summons. They would rather see the current summoned monsters slightly buffed since they are somewhat poor. Even a Gated Fiend is no match for a Yuan-Ti Mage in a 1 vs 1 fight.

Improved Enchanted Weapon: It defeats the purpose of gathering so many upgrade components throughout the game and makes it easy to combat high level creatures.

Giant Strength: Sounds okay, but by the time that you get to the level when you can create Cloud Giant Strength 23, you will indeed have forged some items for your warriors that do the same as the spell. Doesn't seem all too useful.



I did think up an alternative.

Remove Confusion (Abjuration)
Target: 1 party member
Effect: Removes the effect of all mind effecting spells, such as Confusion, Chaos, Emotion and Charm.

Advantage: Currently many mages use mind effecting spells to incapacitate our Protagonist party. There are a few protections against it such as Chaotic Commands and Spell Immunity: Enchantment/Charm, as well as items and potions. However, opponent mages also use remove magic / dispel magic to relieve those protections (except for item effects of course). Maybe it's a nice idea to add a mage spell that can dispel the effect on one party member as an alternative method of relieving confusion.

Disadvantage: As a level 6 spell it may come too late. People may have found or forged some items that counter confusion. People prefer other level 6 spells.



It would also be an option to change Mislead into a different type of Illusion Spell (since it's one of the only ones left at the high level spells). Something like Phantasmal Killer?
http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Killer

Phantasmal Killer (Illusion)
Target: 1 creature
Effect: You conjure an image of utmost horror to strike down a single creature. The target may attempt a Will save to disbelieve the spell, avoiding all ill effects. Failing that, the target then makes a Fortitude save to avoid instant death. A successful save still inflicts 3d6 points of magic damage.

I think it would translate to a save vs spells followed by a save vs death.... I would just make it a save vs death at -2 or -4 or you die, else take 3d6 magic damage.

Advantage: Killing spell with minor damage if resisted.
Disadvantage: At the same spell level you also have Disintegrate (worse since it destroys items), Death Spell (AoE effect but only low level creatures) and Death Fog (only summoned creatures, but AoE damage)... so maybe Phantasmal Killer would be a spell for level 7 or 8 (since it's better than Disintegrate).

[Sikret]

Thanks all! It's great to receive feedbacks so quickly.

Anyway, you removed Simulacrum, Project Image and now you will remove Mislead. I think Illusion as school is getting to be very weak since no illusion spell at higher level. What about to give an illusion spell instead of Mislead and maybe some for higher level? For example like Shadow Evocation/Conjuration series in D&D 3.5. Basically you can cast any 1 or more level lower Evocation spell with a spell, but there if target makes save, he will see this is an illusion only and takes only partial damage.

I will probably add this to the poll's options. Need to think more about it.

As for it decreasing the value of high quality items I think the effect could be kept under control by limiting the spells duration so it would have to be used intelligently in battle to give you a chance to hurt high level foes but offer no real replacement for a +4 weapon.

What's your proposed duration for the spell, Clown?

I did think up an alternative.

Remove Confusion (Abjuration)
Target: 1 party member
Effect: Removes the effect of all mind effecting spells, such as Confusion, Chaos, Emotion and Charm.

Advantage: Currently many mages use mind effecting spells to incapacitate our Protagonist party. There are a few protections against it such as Chaotic Commands and Spell Immunity: Enchantment/Charm, as well as items and potions. However, opponent mages also use remove magic / dispel magic to relieve those protections (except for item effects of course). Maybe it's a nice idea to add a mage spell that can dispel the effect on one party member as an alternative method of relieving confusion.

Disadvantage: As a level 6 spell it may come too late. People may have found or forged some items that counter confusion. People prefer other level 6 spells.

If you want it to remove the effect of "Emotion" spell as well, it should be a "Remove Enchantment" spell, which will also remove beneficial enchantment spells' effects from the recipient; but if you omit "Emotion" from your list, it can be implemented without removing beneficial effects. Which one do you prefer?

I think your other suggestion (the Phantasmal Killer idea) is too powerful for a 6th level spell. Compare it with Finger of Death.

Thanks again everyone for the thoughts you have put on this case. Please keep thinking and sending your comments and ideas. To tell you the truth, all of the ideas discussed so far are better than the existent cheesy Mislead spell. So, I believe that we are on the right track.

[lroumen]

I didn't know Emotion would be the odd one out. Hmm... I think Remove Confusion would be best (thus omitting emotion).

Indeed, Phantasmal Killer would be too good for a level 6 spell.

[Sikret]

There are actually more pointless spells in the game that we can replace with new ones. You can see a suggested list of them below.

So, if you have good ideas which suit well with any of the spell-levels, do not hesitate to suggest.

3rd level:
- Non Detection
- Clairvoyance

4th level:
- Farsight
- Teleport Field
- Wizard Eye

Of course, replacing Mislead has the first priority, but I just wanted to let you know that ideas for new spells of lower levels are also accepted and can be used in the future.

This post has been edited by Sikret: Jan 9 2008, 09:12 AM

[lroumen]

Maybe change Non-Detection to counter True Sight, but not Oracle? It could open some new combinations and possibilities concerning protection by invisibility and its dispelling.

[Vardaman]

Based on my experiences so far with my 5.0 run through which has involved an annoying re-load for this very reason I would back improved enchanted weapon as the new spell choice. This is as there are a few situations where you can trap your self into needing a +4 weapon to defeat an essential encounter or failing that have to re-load an earlier(in one case several hours of play earlier) save. In the two examples I experienced it was especially frustrating as I was quite capable of handling the encounters save for the fact that certain enemies were completely impervious to my attacks.
As for it decreasing the value of high quality items I think the effect could be kept under control by limiting the spells duration so it would have to be used intelligently in battle to give you a chance to hurt high level foes but offer no real replacement for a +4 weapon.
Finally I think out of the three spells offered this is the only one that offers something suffeciently different and useful to actually compete for a level 6 slot were we already have the almost essential imp. haste, PfMW and PfME not to mention chain lightning.

Anyhow thats my take on it.

My only concern with implementing this spell would be if Sikret would then start adding even more enemies that are immune to less than +4 weapons. I do like the idea of this spell but would hate to have it cause a sort of arms race.

I do agree that suddenly running into an enemy you have no way of damaging but could otherwise beat is very frustrating.


I also like the Improved Strength spell. It's simple and useful. Would we want it to scale all the way up to granting 25 strength or is that too much? Perhaps up to 24 strength would be fine since there are potions of Storm Giant strength in the game.
The only bad side is that this spell isn't as powerful as other 6th level spells.

[Clown]

Sikret:
I was thinking probably just a few rounds, perhaps 1 round per 2 levels or some such should give long enough to do good damage to the appropriate foe but not so long as to be a valid replacement for a +4 weapon especially as you are unlikely to have a great many castings with the already stiff competition for level 6 slots.

[leonidas]

Well I think I've suggested this spell before, but perhaps in a different context.

Anyway, here's the idea:

Sphere of Anti-magic - Essentially you become immune to magic for one or two rounds.

Advantages - Well it's always irritating having your buffs dispelled and being blasted by a horrid wilting or a triple chain lightning, this spell would give you some recourse in that situation. Additionally, I figure having one spell to absorb those nasty chain contingencies is more efficient and more fun than buffing everyone with PFME.

Disadvantages - probably some horrendous exploit that I haven't thought of yet.


I was also toying around with this idea:

Marked for Death - a spell that makes a creature immune to healing effects from potions and spells.

I like the idea of stopping players or enemies from healing, it adds a layer of complexity you have to consider when spamming greater restoration.

On the other hand it would be a far more effective spell for enemies to wield in the current game, as enemy clerics die before they ever get a chance to cast healing spells.


And finally, while we're on the subject of useless spells, is it possible to do anything about the demon summoning trinity? They're absolutely horrible at the moment and no right minded player would waste time summoning a creature that not only is incredibly weak, but has a chance to turn on your party.

[nerieo]

I choose 2- Improved Enchanted Weapon.

For the Moster Summoning 4, I think there are enough powerful monster summon spells,

such as: raise undead, summon Nishruu...

For the Giant Strength, I think it is too powerful, as it is not only could replace the potions,

and we also could cast it on the summoned or controlled monsters, so...

I suggest a new interesting spell:

Anti-Invisibility Field

Any invisible creatures(include player characters and enemys) in this field will take 4 point poison damage

per 2 second as long as they are invisible.

And any creature in this field who want to become invisible must take a save VS. death to aviod visible.

Advantage:

Players and enemys now have a new way to deal with invisible creatures. You can imagine

it will change the tactics of some well-known battle. So its disadvantage is the risk to introduce

a too powerful spell for players or for enemys, it depends on the monsters' script.

This post has been edited by nerieo: Jan 9 2008, 08:51 AM

[Sikret]

@Iroumen

Your suggested Remove Confusion spell is good, but it sounds to me to be suitable for being a new adition to clerical collection of spells and it's not powerful enough to be a 6th level spell. I would consider it a 4th level clerical spell. What do you think?

[Shaitan]

What about leve 5?

Regards

[Shadan]

I was thinking a whole day on Sikret's recommendation to replace those lvl 3 and 4 spells. I figured out, that Divination school is very useless, and when somebody wants to do custom mage, conjurer is the far best choice, since he loses only Divination. There are no divination spells at higher level, and lower level ones can be replaced with an alternative method. Identify with Lore or Glasses, Detect Evil with paladin, and anti illusion spells with inquisitor or thief. So I would suggest some other useful divination spell. All of my recommended spells depend on that diviner can see the very near future probabilities.

So I would replace the useless Know Alignment with the following spell:
Intuition
+2 AC to the single target agains. 5 turn duration (like Shield). It stacks with armor bonus and all other AC bonus. (If it is too strong then you can replace with +3 AC bonus only a single type damage like crushing, piercing, slashing.)

Instead of Wizard Eye, I would recommend the following spell:
Insight
-1 casting time for the target, 1 round/2lvl duration (would be nice buff on clerics/druids whose spells arew much slower)

Also a higher level group version of this:
Battle insight
-1 or -2 casting time for the party, 1 round/2 lvl duration. Lvl 7 or 8 spell.

Vision
Lvl 9 spell.
Recipient or only the caster get X % damage resistance (melee and magic/elemnetal) for a short duarion. Doesn't stack with Hardiness.


About my Shadow Evocation series recommendation:
It can be started at level 4, replacing Teleport Field. Level 5 version can replace Phantom Blade (well, Enchanted Weapon is 1 level lower and more usefull, since it is tradeable). Level 6 version can replace Mislead, level 7 the Sphere of Chaos. And you should do a bonus level 8 and 9 version of this.

Improved Strength
It should be a level 4 spell, maybe instead of Contagion (I think it is very useless spell). Or alternatively a bit weaker version instead of Non-Detection.
Level 4 version should give 18/00 strength at lvl 7, 19 at lvl 10, 20 at lvl 13, 21 at lvl 16, 22 at lvl 19. Its duration could be like 2 rounds/level. (Strength has a 5 turn duration.)

Remove Enchantment
I would welcome this spell, but is sounds as cleric/druid spells, like Remove Paralysis. I would replace Cloak of Fear with this. Then it could come 2 character level sooner than Chaotic Command, but CC is better imho since it is prevents thing for longer duration. It should remove charm, sleep, confusion and emotion effects from the recipient.

Other suggestions:
1. I would recommend to upgrade Remove Paralysis to cure stun condition also, not only holds. It would be more usefull spell, and that stun very annoying sometimes.
2. You should consider to move Hold Animal to 2nd level as his partner, Hold person is 2nd level also. Maybe you should replace the useless Know Alignment with that spell and you should add a usefull spell to 3rd level for druids.

That's all.

Ps: Sikret, what is your opinion about PofMW-Mantle-Impr. Mantle thing?

[Sikret]

1. I would recommend to upgrade Remove Paralysis to cure stun condition also, not only holds. It would be more usefull spell, and that stun very annoying sometimes.

Remove Paralysis already has the cure stun effect. What I'm not sure about is whether it also cures the stun effect of the 7th level spell "Power Word Stun" or not. The uncertainty is due to the fact that that particular spell uses a different stunning effect than all other stunning spells and abilities. So, please, test it for me shadan. Make sure that the recipient doesn't have Minor Globe or Globe of Invulnerability because those spells will block the remove paralysis spell.

Ps: Sikret, what is your opinion about PofMW-Mantle-Impr. Mantle thing?

That change is too radical and requires too much changes in the game. All enemy mages' scripts will need to be revised. And even apart from the huge work, we will need to do a lot of discussion to make such a decision. So, for now, let's postpone (if not completely forget) it.

[Shadan]

OK, I will try to test Remove Paralysis and PWStun.
Well, if it is so much work then skip PfMW thing...
It seems we are on the wame way regarding Remove Enchantment.
And I hope my other suggestions will give at least a sshort consideration, or Divination and Illusion school will be strengthened, even if not with my recommended spells.

[Sikret]

OK, I will try to test Remove Paralysis and PWStun.

Thanks.

And I hope my other suggestions will give at least a sshort consideration, or Divination and Illusion school will be strengthened, even if not with my recommended spells.

I assure you that I consider every single comment and suggestion. If I do not react immediately, it doesn't mean that I have ignored them. (As an example, over 6 months ago, leonidas had reported an issue about the unfair amount of money Nalia gives to you for saving the keep under a certain condition . I had saved it and just a few days ago, I implemented the fix for the next release of the mod as you can see in the progress report topic.)

[lroumen]

It's not unheard of that some Clerical Spells also have a mage implementation. Examples are:
- Protection from Evil (level 1 mage)
- Protection from Petrication (level 1 mage and not even a cleric spell)
- Protection from Fire (or Cold, level 3 mage)
- Remove Curse (level 4 mage)
and there are a few more here and there.

The reason I proposed it as a mage spell is because mages have currently no implementation to remove confusion/charm type effects from party members. I wouldn't mind seeing Remove Confusion as a Clerical spell though. In such a case, level 4 would indeed seem best.


If you would implement the suggestion as a "Remove Enchantment", then it would be implemented in a way that all effects from enchantment/charm spells are removed from a person. That way Sleep, Hold, Stun, Charm, Domination, Chaos an also Emotion would be cured, and benefits such as Enchanted Weapon and Greater Malison would also be negated. This isn't a bad thing since it would let the player decide whether they want to remove everything or nothing, but there are also some strange things.
The Power Word spells are conjuration spells (stun, sleep, hold), and if I understand things correctly, then the effects of these spells would not be removed, but they're still charm type effects. Wouldn't that be strange?

Wouldn't it be easier to just check. If state == xxx, then state=STATE_NORMAL, with as xxx the following:
STATE_HELPLESS (emotion)
STATE_STUNNED (hold, stun)
STATE_CONFUSED (confusion)
STATE_CHARMED (charm)

This post has been edited by lroumen: Jan 9 2008, 02:17 PM

[Shadan]

I checked Power Word Stun and Remove Paralysis in a fresh multiplayer game. Remove Paralysis always cured the stun effect. Only strange thing if I casted Stun on a custom NPC, it worked as indtended. If I casted on Imoen, text wrote Imoen is stunned, but icon didn't appear on Inomen portrait and Imoan was able to do anzthing, she was not sunned.