Progress report for IA v6 Options

[Vuki]

In IA my bard is actually a full-time socerer, only he can actually dispel a lot, and has permanent imp.alcatry &-2 to casting speed. I'll miss my life savin imphaste+pfmw+tenser trigger also.

As you see and as you have written there are two problems with bards imho:
- very fast level up
- permanent Improved Alacrity

The second one is mod related: if that item is too powerful then it should be removed. The first one can be solved by a little raise of the necessery XP to level up. And of course the bard casting ability could be reduce to 6th level. I see it as a much better solution than to artificially reduce the casting ability to 5th level (however raising the XP needed to level up is also artificial ).

[Kerkes]

I agree. Eternal melody should be tweaked and I think I read it will be in IA6.

[Shadan]

I don't know why but I started to plan my v6 party in my head. Since druid stronghold is upgraded, so I thought I will play a druid protagonist. I played with Cernd as auramaster in 4.2 and I started to think about his usefullness. Sadly I figured out neither single class cleric nor druid is not usefull in IA high end games. Let see why!

Both druid and priest single class attacks once per round, 2 with Haste/Impr. Haste. If you do dual class cleric or druid they are excellent since with 2handed style and Impr. Haste can attack 6/round which is a huge difference. I found offensive cleric and druid spells totally useless in fights like EDE or any high end game fight. Enemies either has 100 % MR or immune to spells below 9. And those enemies immune to fire, lightning, magical damage etc... As far as I remember Cernd was only able to summon elemental princes in EDE, and those princes are not too good also in fight like this. They almost was not able to damage anything, they were good just to soak a few damage... Clerics are better a bit since they have Greater Resto, but dual class clerics can cast GR. Resto also. My lvl 7 memorized spells with my cleric in both of my game were Gr. Restoration except 2 slots. 1 slot for Globe of Blades and 1 slot for Summon Deva. Clerics buffs became less inportant also in high end game. Wizards and sorcerers do the most imporant buffs like Impr. Haste, PfMW, PfMagical Damage. Even Prot. from Fire is better from arcane caster since it lasts much longer. In high end game the very strong melee fight is the best, but arcane casters can at least do very important buffs, Dragon Breath, Wish etc. which makes them essential in those fights also.
All in all dual classed cleric is very very good and needed in IA, dual classed druid is good also, but the luck of Gr. Resto makes him secondary only to clerics, but single class from both class are a bit useless in IA high end game, even the new kit auramaster also.

I have some suggestions:

- Lets make elementral princes (maybe devas also) a bit more useful. Their weapons should be considered to +4 weapons (hey, they are HLAs...), better AC, resistances, saves etc.
- Lets make druid form change a more useful. Lets do a new druid HLA which is super form change.
- Lets make Regeneration much better spell and change it to druid only. It should be the druid version of very good healing spell at lvl 7, which can be in par or at least can be close to Greater Restoration. (All party memmbers get a very good regeneration for a short time.) Or lets make a new druid HLA with similar goal.
- Lets replace the useless Mass Raise Dead HLA at both druids and clerics with an offensive HLA, so caster type clerics and druids can do something in EDE also. This should be available only single class druids and clerics.

These are my thoughts only, all opinions are welcome. Maybe others will have better ideas to strengthen single class caster type druid and cleric.

[Sikret]

I don't know why but I started to plan my v6 party in my head. Since druid stronghold is upgraded, so I thought I will play a druid protagonist. I played with Cernd as auramaster in 4.2 and I started to think about his usefullness. Sadly I figured out neither single class cleric nor druid is not usefull in IA high end games.

Raven is writing an essay, "How to play auramasters effectively". It will surely be of much help for players. As I have said before, playing an auramaster is a bit tricky and that's exactly what makes it a balanced and fun kit. If everyone could easily figure out how to utilize the kit's prowess, it wouldn't have been much fun.

Both druid and priest single class attacks once per round, 2 with Haste/Impr. Haste. If you do dual class cleric or druid they are excellent since with 2handed style and Impr. Haste can attack 6/round which is a huge difference.

Well, nothing prevents you from dual-classing your cleric. Even the expanded druid stronghold won't be limited to single-class druid.

I found offensive cleric and druid spells totally useless in fights like EDE

EDE is really an exception. It's not a good example for accessing different classes' offensive power.

or immune to spells below 9.

Immunity to spells below 9th level specifically belongs to Rakshasa Prince in EDE (and demiliches, Bone Golems and Magic Golems are immune to all spell levels even in the vanilla game).

Clerics are better a bit since they have Greater Resto, but dual class clerics can cast GR. Resto also. My lvl 7 memorized spells with my cleric in both of my game were Gr. Restoration except 2 slots. 1 slot for Globe of Blades and 1 slot for Summon Deva.

Good news is that I'm going to add one or two new 7th level clerical spells to the game for v6.

Even Prot. from Fire is better from arcane caster since it lasts much longer.

I don't agree with this point. Clerics have usually higher levels and enemies have hard time in dispelling spells cast by clerics. So, if you cast protection from fire on any of your characters by your cleric, the chance that the enemy can dispel it with remove magic spell is smaller than the chance he has to dispel the buff if cast by a mage. It's true that if not dispelled the prot. from fire cast by the mage will last longer but this is a minor advantage over the major advantage of the clerical version of the spell I just mentioned.

I have some suggestions

Thank you. Let them come.

- Lets make elementral princes (maybe devas also) a bit more useful.

Devas are already a lot more powerful and smart compared to the vanilla game; I will surely consider improving the elemental princes as well. Good point!

- Lets make druid form change a more useful. Lets do a new druid HLA which is super form change.

I will think about this.

- Lets make Regeneration much better spell and change it to druid only. It should be the druid version of very good healing spell at lvl 7, which can be in par or at least can be close to Greater Restoration. (All party memmbers get a very good regeneration for a short time.) Or lets make a new druid HLA with similar goal.

Auramasters already have a superb regeneration ability (= contact with Nature) as you surely know, though it can be cast only on self.

In general, I don't see reason for making the regeneration spell more powerful than what it is. It it is already a powerful spell. Moreover, regeneration granted by spells and potions can stack.

- Lets replace the useless Mass Raise Dead HLA at both druids and clerics with an offensive HLA, so caster type clerics and druids can do something in EDE also. This should be available only single class druids and clerics.

I have actually thought about the "Mass Raise Dead" HLA and I agree that it's not useful. I'm open to good suggestions for replacing it. But I repeat again: don't take EDE as your criterion for giving any sort of suggestions.

[Raven]

I don't know why but I started to plan my v6 party in my head. Since druid stronghold is upgraded, so I thought I will play a druid protagonist. I played with Cernd as auramaster in 4.2 and I started to think about his usefullness. Sadly I figured out neither single class cleric nor druid is not usefull in IA high end games.

Raven is writing an essay, "How to play auramasters effectively". It will surely be of much help for players.

However, its first draft is mainly for low-level play; hopefully when I make progress in the v6 testing game I'm starting soon I will add sections on tactics at high levels.

This post has been edited by Raven: Jul 23 2008, 10:40 AM

[Vuki]

Devas are already a lot more powerful and smart compared to the vanilla game; I will surely consider improving the elemental princes as well. Good point!

When my blade+barbarian+ranger/cleric+monk combo attacked the Fallen Deva summoned by lich in Spellhold then I was able to kill it in one round. Ok, it was 4 improved hasted characters (except the monk) but their levels were 15-16 only. Do you think that Deva is powerful enough in the current version? Could it be maybe caster level dependent or just simple has more defensive power?

I have actually thought about the "Mass Raise Dead" HLA and I agree that it's not useful. I'm open to good suggestions for replacing it. But I repeat again: don't take EDE as your criterion for giving any sort of suggestions.

I think the new HLA could be similar to the current one. How about the following spell?

Mass Delay Death
Range: 10 yards
Duration: 2 rounds
Casting Time: 3
Area of Effect: 20' radius
Saving Throw: none
The spell affected every friendly creatures in the area of effect. It protects the affected creatures from death to 3 rounds. Everybody who should die during that period of time either from spell effect (like Finger Death) or damage can make a saving throw against death and if it is succesfull then he/she survived. HP cannot be lowered below zero except the case when saving throw was not made against death. Spellcasting and every other action is possible even if HP is lowered to zero.

Maybe it is too powerfull spell but I think the two rounds duration compensate for it's power. And I think it is useable in EDE also however it was not a requirement.

This post has been edited by Vuki: Jul 23 2008, 10:39 AM

[Shadan]

Auramester: I agree this kit is very very usefull at low level game. Even at mid level. I played with Cernd as I mentioned and I used him with very efficiently in 1st half of the game. But his usefulness faded away as I progressed in the game. So at high level they are not enough good I think, but I agree other single class druids are even worse than auramaster.

Prot. from Fire: You are right. Strange, I have never considered this about this spell.

EDE: When I am making the party I always try to use those classes which are good in 1st half of the game and in high end game also. Since EDE is the hardest encounter naturally I want characters who can do something in this fight also.

About immunities: I didn't make in the details, but in high and game you will encounter with golems, raksashas etc. There are many many enemies who cannot be affatected with most cleric or druid spells. Rakshashas immune to spells below lvl 7 AND they are immune to fire, magical damage, lighning etc. Golems are immune to almost any magic. I could continue, but the conclusion is caster clerics and druids can do very very few and little thing in high end game imho.

Regeneration: I think Greater Restoration is essential to beat IA now. It would be maybe good if there would be an option to bring druid instead of cleric, and druid should have a spell which could be close to Gr. Resto. Or if you dont want this, it would be good if druids could do some kind of mass regeneration even if it is much weaker than Gr. Resto. I know about auramester's Contact with Nature, but I would like to see druids to heal others also with a bit netter efficiency than they do now. In my mind healer/caster roles would be this:
wizard, sorcerer: very big offensive caster power, very very limited heal power (this is OK in IA now)
protector kit, paladins: good melee offensive power, limited healing power (this is OK also, although it seems to me Valygar will be better than any single class druid)
druid: medium heal power, medium offensive caster power (this is true in SoA except the last 2-3 battles, but not true in ToB) need more offensive and healing power at high leveles imho.
clerics: good healing power (this is OK in the game now), a little weaker offensive power than druids, but clerics should have effective spells at higher level also (this need a bit tuning in high end game)

About dual class: Dual classed clerics are one of the best characters in the game, and dual classed druids also good. What I would like to give a little boost to single class, more caster oriented versions of these classes to be viable option not to dual them. If you would put a good form change HLA for single class druids (with some resists and good melee power) they could be almost in pair with dual classed druids. (Dual would be still better maybe since they can change cast and hit anytime, while shapechanged druid has to shapechange out before casting and change back before hit.) I hope that new clerics spells will be good also.

Anyway thanks for fast reply Sikret, and thanks for considering some of my suggestion.

[Vuki]

Auramester:

Hehe, you mean here Auramaster. The word "mester" is the hungarian version of "master".

Prot. from Fire: You are right. Strange, I have never considered this about this spell.

Blade rules when effective spell level counts.

[Sikret]

@shadan

Rakshasas' immunity to 7th (and lower) level spells is a classic ability which exists in the vanilla game (and even in pnp AD&D) as well. It's not something new. In EDE, your main enemies are Rakshasas (accompanied with a few very powerful other foes). That's exactly why I said that EDE is an exception and should not be taken as a criterion for any discussion about the usefulness of clerical spells or to give suggestions to improve those spells.

[Sikret]

Elhan is very conservative when talking with you about Irenicus and Bodhi. He thinks that their elven background and what they did is probably the most important secret of elven community which should not be discussed with others. Perhaps, he doesn't know that the elven city of Suldanesselar has one other and far more mysterious secret hidden behind its walls.

- How many of the residents of the city know about the mysterious staircase?

- What is that house with no entrance you see inside the city?

- What has happened in that house far long ago and how can one enter that building?

- Do you have the intention and courage to investigate the case and enter one of the most ancient, mysterious and dangerous adventures related to elven community?

The Ancient Secret of Suldanesselar

A new quest added to IA v6 (available only to ranger protagonists)

[Shadan]

A new quest added to IA v6 (available only to ranger protagonists)

Well, I am very sad. I wanted to try an another protagonist in v6 than ranger. I palyed with vagrant in v5 mostly for new quests and now there is a new quest in v6 also only for rangers... Is it possible to make it available to ranger AND druid protagonists since druid stronhold will expanded in v6 also?

[lroumen]

that sounds like a good idea

[Sikret]

Do you mean that you intend to play IA v6 for only one single run?

One of the features of IA is its great replaying value. In IA v6, there will be new content for various classes.

[Ryel ril Ers]

@Sikret:

some advise, keep it or not.
Do another ranger kit in v6.
Valygor is a protector in it, and the most players try the vagrant. Or the another solution boost up the beastmaster with new kit specific non-metal equipment, an summoning abilities at highter level. Also a good idea to boost up a bit the druid kits, and make new druid HLA and spells to high level.

It is possible to make the ranger-clerics forbidden. The most players choose it instead of the druids and fighter->druids. They stronger than the fighter->clerics and use the druid spells also. I don't understand this character conception. Why and how a ranger become cleric too?

These upgrades make these classes attractive.

[Shadan]

Do you mean that you intend to play IA v6 for only one single run?

Yes I do. Since 1 play is too long comparing to my free time, so when I finish it a new v7 will be under development.
So I would be happy if you would make it to available to druids also.
Anyway, if I would intend to play it 2 times, lets suppose v7 won't come out within 2 years after v6 is released, then there is an opportunity to play mage (new mage quests) and druid (new upgraded stronghold). Personally only 1 or max. 2 new quests with another protagonist is not so attractive to spend half year with IA again. I prefer to play it aghain when more things are changed. Definitaley I don't want to play with ranger protagonist again for a while. So I hope druids can do this new quest also.

[Kerkes]

Why oh why are riskbreakers not able to use 2-h weapons?? I can't force myself into playing them just because of this. Will this be changed in IA6?

[Shadan]

When will be v6 realesed? I know there is not exact date, but an estimated one would be good also. I am waiting to play with it.

[Raven]

Estimated Date of Release: March 2009

Taken from the first post in the topic.

This post has been edited by Raven: Aug 7 2008, 10:06 AM

[Ryel ril Ers]

About capping their spell progression - an IA there are TONS of scrolls if you're fast enough to kill mages before they use them on you, and bards can cast anything they wish from scrolls. For me, it's fine as it is, but if you wish to cap it, it's ok. Their armor alone is powerful enough to compensate for that.

I have only one problem with this "spell progression capping". Standard AD&D rules allow the bards to cast 6th level spells and Sikret would like to reduce it to 5th level. I understand his reasons (this way bards cannot cast - except from scrolls - PfMW and Tenser) but I think it is really a bad solution. When standard AD&D allow something and you are not able to do it then it is always a pain. It is understandable when it is technically not possible (like restriction for dual-classes), so no one complaint but when it is just made because of game balance then it is really difficult to accept.

I understand you don't like this tweak. I didn't like it first time too. Lots of people love the bards. Yes they cannot cast level 6 spells in the next time what is a big loss. But the tenser able to cast from elemental staffs and you cannot renew your protections in it so that is not a big loss. The PoMW is usefull but only when you are in near death. Lots of enemy don't bother with if you use it instead starts to attack the unprotected party members. They lost the option to use spell protection with highter level than SI, but it is only balance. They able to cast SI, Mirror image, Blur, Stoneskin so they will able to tank well in the next version. They also have very high casting level. They able to sing, use time trap, cast any spell from scroll, use potions, wands and the armor will remain too. They will be useful in the next version so don't bury them. Haer'Dalis a very powerful character now and he will be useful in the next version in my opinion.

This isn't the standard D&D. The D&D is a heroic role playing game with horde of mistakes and unbelievable things. The anvil isn't a heroic game, instead this is a dark or low fantasy. Sikret doesn't do madness.
-Madness? This is ANVIL!!!

[Shadan]

Estimated Date of Release: March 2009

Taken from the first post in the topic.

OMG, it is tooooo long wait... Maybe I have to play v5 another time... Hmm, I will think about it.