Progress report for IA v6 Options

[Vardaman]

Oops, been playing with the un-nerfed component so long forgot it was a mod. However as for the bard changes as a whole, though they could certainly be justified in a vanilla game in IA they are far too draconian and as shadan has said will consign another class to the graveyard. This is not a positive or helpful change and simply reduces the variety of ways the mod can be played which are already to some extent limited. As it is now there is no class with the possible exception of the Vagrant which is over powered in IA and as a result none need to be nerfed from a balance perspective, the only thing that nerfing a class especially to this extent will do is dissuade players from using it leading more and more to the same cookie cutter IA party being the only one which is valid, something that will only harm the mod as a whole.

I agree with this too.

I can see taking away 8th level spells but not 6th or even 7th. I'd just delay their spell progression.

[Baronius]

It requires very much arcane knowledge to be able to work with high-level spells. Mages study very much, and they still need much experience to gain access to powerful spells. I agree that it's strange that a bard can use such spells while he will never be as proficient and skilled in the ways of arcane magic as a wizard.
The weakness of bards due to this restriction can still be compensated in some other way. Bards aren't wizards.

[Sikret]

As it is now there is no class with the possible exception of the Vagrant which is over powered in IA and as a result none need to be nerfed from a balance perspective,

You didn't get it correctly. The reason behind the recent changes was not that I believed that bards were overpowered. The rason was that it just didn't make sense to have a bard casting 6th level spells. Sixth level is a distinguished spell level even in wizards' spell progression table. It has the maximum distance with the previous level. It takes too long even for a single class mage to have accessto 6th level spells. If Bards are supposedto stop somewhere, 5th level is the rational choice.

the only thing that nerfing a class especially to this extent will do is dissuade players from using it leading more and more to the same cookie cutter IA party being the only one which is valid, something that will only harm the mod as a whole.

1- To which "extent"?

I have to remind you (and Vardaman) again that bards didn't cast 7th and 8th level spells even in the vanilla game. All I have done is to deprive them from casting one spell level. It's not a radical and dramatic change in the way you are trying to show it.

2- There is already a good and valid variety of different party compositions to play IA. There is no "same cookie cutter party" for IA.

[lroumen]

I never found it odd that bards could cast level 6 spells. They can in pnp. If you replace Mislead then I see no qualms with Bards casting level 6 spells. Enemy mages strip protective enchantments all the time.

[Ryel ril Ers]

Sikret:

If the bards lost their ability to cast level 6 spell than they will be the weakest class of all. They lose their tenser transformation and their prot from magic weapons. They are jack-of-all-trade like the swiss-army-knife fighter/mage/thief. I think these two class have equal power. The f/m/t get the highter level spell earlier and they have more spell a bit, and the bards have hight caster level what not as relevant than in the 4.2. The best spells typical bard's spells get cap (skull trap, sunfire) only the dispel and the remove magic is good. The bards get HLA earlier but the f/m/t get better HLA-s and they are good thiefs.
The mages always have one or two level highter casting ability than the bards and the bards always starts with one spell and their cp is only 4 or 5 per level (i don't remember) so they have small amount and lower level spells than the mages.

This one spell level loss very dramatic and send the bards and Haer'Dalis to the graveyard. They lose some key spell like contigency, pfmw and tenser. So their tanking and fighting ability lowered dramatically. They are poor casters and poor thiefs and after this change they will be poor fighters and tanks, so they lost their only advantage.

This is a tactical mod so logical or not the bards must able to use cast level 6 spells.

[Sikret]

If the bards lost their ability to cast level 6 spell than they will be the weakest class of all.

Naturally yes. Bards are weak in combat as per their design. If you see a bard as powerful as an F/M in combat you should wonder that something is wrong, not the other way round.

I'm sure that the bad un-nerfed spell progression table (from Ease-of-Use) has created the illusion that bards should be as good as F/Ms in combat in players' minds and I intend to dispel this illusion.

They lose their tenser transformation and their prot from magic weapons. They are jack-of-all-trade like the swiss-army-knife fighter/mage/thief. I think these two class have equal power.

They are much different. An f/m/t IS a mage; a bard is not. The f/m/t progresses too slowly and when he gains access to a certain spell level, it is his right (because he is a mage). The bard progresses fast exactly because he is jack-of-all trades which means he knows just little bit about anything and is not supposed to be proficient in any of those trades. If you like to play bards, you should like them for what they are and should be able to play them efficiently in that way (not for and by mistaking them with F/Ms).

As I explianed before (this is going to become repetitive), either bards should stop somewhere (= at some spell level) or they shouldn't. If they shouldn't, then we should let them learn even 9th level spells (which is absurd); but if they should stop somewhere, 5th level is the rational choice for reasons I have explianed before.

This will be my last post about bards.

This post has been edited by Sikret: Feb 4 2008, 10:48 AM

[Sikret]

Vik's suggestion to improve Firkraag even further and shadan's suggestion to improve the challenge in Sahoagin City are both implemented . See the initial post in this thread.

This post has been edited by Sikret: Feb 4 2008, 12:03 PM

[Shadan]

Last word about bards:
Jack of all trades? How? They cannot fight really (1 star in weapons), they can only do pick pocket (no trap, lock, illusion, backstab etc.), and now they can't really cast also. What else, their HLA's are crap compared to warriors or mages due to recent changes (many items are not good for UAI, Mislead is out so their Impr. Bard Song is less effective). Formerly bards were very weak in early game, but good class in medium and highend game. Now they stay weak at start and they are weak in highend game also. Pointless class, I am sure I will never play bard in IA anymore after this, because in IA there is no room for who can't do anything. I think they could get at least something bonus to compensate their nerf. For example their song can be in effect while they are fighting (stop when they cast). This would be a very small bonus after they losing high level spell and Mislead+song combo.

[Ryel ril Ers]

shadan said he never play with bards anymore adter that change. I said never play the new IA anymore after that change. I remain with the version 5.

I think the level 6 is correct limit their abilities and they only cast 3 spell in the high and. I have a f/m/t and a bard in my party and the bard is laughable caster against the f/m/t with the same xp. They are nothing with the pure mages. If you limit the bards casting ability than limit the paladins and the rangers too. They are real fighters not hybrid like the bards, why can they able to cast level 4/3 divine spells?

I don't understand why do you close some good possibility if you already closed the cheasier things (mislead). You said it is logical but that think nonlogical that the best summoned creature in the game is summoned by a fighter class (vagrant).

Please leave the bards in this state. They are well-balanced and interesting class. They weakest arcane casters in the game. Lots of players like them. Make a poll at least, please.


EDIT:
An alternative solution to weak the bards but leave the usability. The bards are mostly illusioners and enchanters a bit diviners so add them restricted schools. I suggest the necromancy, conjuration and evocation. They can use little variety spells, and some good spells where their high casting level godd missed (skull trap, magic missile, flame arrow etc.). I think they will be usable but they loss their power.


I agree the wild mage restriction. I suggest to delete this kit and add a new mage kit. The wild mage not a tactical class this is a funny class but in tactical reason they are risky. To new mage kit i suggest some exotic power (example highter casting level or faster spell casting or special spell or better fighting capacity) but less spell (not get the +1 specialist spell).
I think funny idea to add a mage class who can alter self to combat machine, change their shape and possible to use them as decent caster and decent fighter.

This post has been edited by Ryel ril Ers: Feb 4 2008, 12:40 PM

[Sikret]

The discussion about bards is over, but since you mentioned a few points about rangers and paladins, I have to reply.

If you limit the bards casting ability than limit the paladins and the rangers too.

They are already limited.

They are real fighters not hybrid like the bards, why can they able to cast level 4/3 divine spells?

Rangers and paladins are warriors, but not fighters. And bards still cast 5th level spells (while they don't).

You said it is logical but that think nonlogical that the best summoned creature in the game is summoned by a fighter class (vagrant).

Vagrant is not a fighter kit; it's a ranger kit. In its description it is explained how they have become true friends with swanmays.

If you think that swanmays are overpowered, it may (or may not) be true, but it's a different question. You should send your comments about swanmays in the relevant topic in the forum. In v4.2, swanmays were much weaker than in v5, but many players requested me to improve them. I can't keep everyone happy.

[Ryel ril Ers]

I editeted my post. See it. I meant warrior instead fighter.

[Choo Choo]

May I add a thing about bards?

While I personally don't recommend capping their spells at level 5, I also understand that there's no point in arguing about it, since you seem pretty set in your opinion.

However, bards aren't a jack of ALL trades - they're specialized as musicians/actors/playwrights. If you give them more songs, through special abilities, that would be nice. Besides, it always irked me how all bards only knew ONE song each. That way, they're not wannabe-mages, wannabe-thieves or wannabe-fighters, but an unique class which can stand on its own.

This post has been edited by Choo Choo: Feb 4 2008, 01:38 PM

[Sikret]

I always create polls and/or ask for everyone's opinion about a new feature or a new change when I'm (even slightly) undecided. In this case (bards' case), I was not undecided.

The expression "Jack_of_all trades" is directly taken from the class's description inside the game; that's why it's used so many times here by various people.

[Sikret]

Here is my gift to those who love (and to those who hate ) Auramasters:

Quote from initial post of this thread:

- Improved Challenge for the "Great Druid" title (one on one duel with the "Great Auramaster")

[Nexiam]

LOL nerfing bards. I guess I'll have to go with 6 Vagrant's in my next run.

[Sikret]

I'm thinking of adding another new quest to the expanded mage stronghold. The main idea is roughly as follows:

Lavok had a lost and torn journal. Once you find its parts you can read it and will be able to fix the planar sphere for more planar travels. The next travel will be multi-dimensional and will send you back in time to when Lavok was alive and not yet enslaved and controlled by the "evil force". The young Lavok (who is not evil) won't naturally recognize you. He is on his path to do things which will eventually turn him to the evil and controlled Lavok you knew and you will have the option to try to help him in choosing his future in a better way. Whether you will be able to (at least partly) change the outcome or will unwantedly work as a catalyst to speed up the evil path or will just behave as a neutral observer is a question which will be answered during the quest.

The quest should be written in a way not to cause any inconsistency with what has happened in the game till then while offering enough freedom of choice and action to the player. It's certainly a complicated and difficult to make quest.

If anyone is willing to participate in making this quest (= writing dialogues and helping me with good novel ideas about how and in which order the events should proceed), please send me a PM (and I will share more information about the quest through PMs).

Edited for typos

This post has been edited by Sikret: Feb 10 2008, 02:20 PM

[Sikret]

Changed the next version's number (from v5.1) to v6.

Once the Expanded Druid Stronghold is fully implemented, the amount of new content will be large enough to make it a major update.

[Vardaman]

- Some possible cheesy exploits while fighting with Warden in planar prison are blocked.

Could you change it so players can still jump down the prison pits even after the Warden is defeated? It's be nice to get that extra bit of XP for the two holes just south of the Warden. You can't enter them without alerting him the way it is.

EDIT: Or just disable the pits during the Warden fight and reactivating them when he's dead. That would prevent any exploits using the pits to hide (if the spawning planar hounds thing was able to be reproduced).

This post has been edited by Vardaman: Feb 18 2008, 04:50 PM

[GreyArea]

sorry to bring this back from the dead..even though it is indeed pinned.

My thoughts on the Planar Sphere proposed extra quest if I may (just random musing and idea really)

- Due to it being effectively time travel and the grandfather paradox may happen and all that jazz, could we meet up with Valygar's old family other than Lavok? Possibly sub side quest or something like that? could be interesting if you have Valygar in your team when you do it I am sure.


Looking forward to the new implimentations in V6 and new quests...even though I havn't run through V5 yet

[Beowulf]

Posted this twice now because im new to this all and posted in the wrong place before , so ill re do it here, i love pallys and would really like to see an extended pally stronghold other than the current windspear quests wich anyone can do and also a new kit, if its as op as the vagrant that would be great. (edited due to poss spoiler removed )

This post has been edited by Beowulf: Apr 7 2008, 06:03 PM