Imoen's dialogue lines, which relate to thieving Options

[lroumen]

Ah yes, there's also the persuasion part of charisma. A charisma of 9 is quite low though. That means she has a -1 penalty towards npc reaction adjustment (according to my tables). I don't think she's the type for that, especially with all her banters. A 10 gets her no penalty and I would probably see that as a minimum.

I also don't know about Imoen as an 18 wisdom sorceress though. Although this helps the Wish spell tremendously, I would rather see her as a 17 or 16, allowing some minor personal flaw. I mean, none/not many of the other NPCs has perfect caster stats in the game. Is there some wisdom increasing gear in bg2 that she might use later on in the game? Early on she wouldn't be using Wish anyway, so later when this type of gear is available it wouldn't matter anymore. Seems to befit better roleplaying-wise.... but it doesn't matter in the overall, lol. I'm just thinking out loud right now.

This post has been edited by lroumen: Aug 1 2007, 03:17 PM

[Raven]

Sikret, IMO a Str 17 is not particularly useful for fighting (17 = only +1 to hit, +1 damage). If I was going to use Imoen for fighting golems etc. I would (at the very least) cast a Strength spell on her beforehand for Str 18:50. So couldn't you keep some more points on either Cha or Int?

[kulyok]

If you're changing her so much, maybe it's just better to introduce a completely new sorceress NPC with these stats instead?

[lroumen]

Sikret, IMO a Str 17 is not particularly useful for fighting (17 = only +1 to hit, +1 damage). If I was going to use Imoen for fighting golems etc. I would (at the very least) cast a Strength spell on her beforehand for Str 18:50. So couldn't you keep some more points on either Cha or Int?

Yes, a strength spell makes a lot more sense.

[Sikret]

Sikret, IMO a Str 17 is not particularly useful for fighting (17 = only +1 to hit, +1 damage). If I was going to use Imoen for fighting golems etc. I would (at the very least) cast a Strength spell on her beforehand for Str 18:50. So couldn't you keep some more points on either Cha or Int?

Yes, I can.

Redistribute her 17 strength for me and give me your suggestion, please. But note than Imoen doesn't have access to Strength Spell or Tenser's Transformation (though the latter can be picked by the player later on). So, decreasing her strength means that if she wants to get into hand-to-hand battles, she will need to rely on another mage for the strength spell (which is a big inconvenience, IMO).

[lroumen]

Imoen Vanilla BG2:
Strength: 9
Dexterity: 18
Constitution: 16
Intelligence: 17
Wisdom: 11
Charisma: 16

Something like:

Strength: 9
Dexterity: 18
Constitution: 16
Intelligence: 15
Wisdom: 17
Charisma: 12


Can Imoen use the Royal Elemental Staff type quarterstaves? All Staves are listed as mage (or cleric/druid) in the readme, but Sorceress == Mage? The Royal Elemental Staff has Tenser's for Free (if you get to forge it of course)

This post has been edited by lroumen: Aug 1 2007, 03:37 PM

[Arkain]

Sorcerers are mage types. She should be able to use it.

[Raven]

I agree with Iroumen's stat distribution but I would take a point off Str to get Wis 18 (there is no difference between Str 8 and 9 as far as I know, whereas for Wish there is a difference between 17 and 18). So I would have:

Str: 8
Dex: 18
Con: 16
Int: 15
Wis: 18
Cha: 12

This post has been edited by Raven: Aug 1 2007, 05:07 PM

[Magnus_025]

I agree with some redistribution of her stars, but changing her so much is totally changing her. She will no longer be Imoen. Besides, her class change is somewhat due to the experiments Irenicus has been doing with her, no? So, why just change her class and add her new ability? Changing her stats so drastically does not feel good.

I know that Wish spell is almost vital in IA (refreshing spells) but why don't use potions? Even if you have erased some potions there may be a few, no?

My opinion is to leave her as she is in terms of stats. But if you are completely decided to change them at least leave them more or less like:

STR: 9
DEX:18 - 17
CON:16
INT:15
WIS:14 - 15
CHA:14

With these stats she can have more chances to make the wish correctly, no? (and even if the chance of failure is high it's just more challenge, no?) The lose of INT and CHA can be justificated because of she being less jovial and childlish after what she has went through (yes, the lose of INT can't be that easily justificated in that way), and the more points in WIS can be gained because of that same experience.

Another thing you can do is change the two more points she gets in ToB because of the growing taint in her. In the Vanilla game she gains 1 STR and 1 DEX. You can put them in WIS if you wish.

Just a question: Will she be a sorceress from the very beginning or will she still be a thief/mage in Irenicus Dungeon and change in Spellhold? And, given the case, could we, players change her class again to thief/mage without screwing everything up with SK?

This post has been edited by Magnus_025: Aug 1 2007, 05:52 PM

[Ardanis]

why don't use potions?

IIRC IA removes those potions. Or, to be more precise, replaces them with some healing potions.

Still I fail to see why a sorcerer should have higher wisdom than charisma. In BG cha and wis imho both useless in equal measure (comparing with other stats). So, high cha at least reflects sorcerer's personality, but wis? Sounds to be out of character.

EDIT
I never use Wish - it requires to be casted ~5 times in order to get "rest" or "2TS+IA". Useless and dangerous spell if you ask me.

This post has been edited by Ardanis: Aug 1 2007, 06:07 PM

[Clown]

If you're changing her so much, maybe it's just better to introduce a completely new sorceress NPC with these stats instead?

I quite agree with this sentiment, have loved everything else about IA but the complete stripping out and replacing of imoen is not something i'm that keen on. Just think it would make more sense to put in a new NPC rather than completely alter and old one especially one so well developed and key to the story as Imoen. Her rogue skills and high CHA score have always seemed key to her character and to the story itself.

Anyhow dont want to be seen as having a go, just my thoughts. Anyhow can't wait for 4.3, finally time to try a vagrant protagonist.

[luan]

Just want to say I like Iroumen or Raven's proposed stats. I too don't think a high strength fits Imoen's character or is a necessity.
I managed to defeat IA's golems just fine with my melee characters. Additionally, 4.3 will allow casters to use vampiric touch as well as the new anti-golem spell!

However!
Another consideration is that Imoen could simply have more stat points than the other NPC's. I mean, look at Sarevok!

Str: 18/00
Dex: 17
Con: 18
Int: 17
Wis: 10
Cha: 15

lol!

Imoen too, is one of the final surviving children of Bhaal. There's plenty of justification for her to have really high ability scores, and even justification for her to grow even more powerful throughout the game, just like the protagonist.

Str: 10
Dex: 18
Con: 16
Int: 17
Wis: 18
Cha: 16

!!!!

And that's still one less stat point than Sarevok!

Also, I humbly disagree with introducing a new NPC. The current roster is already so fleshed out with banters, romances, and interjections. It would require a dedicated team a year to properly spit and shine the dialog/back-story to make it of the same caliber of the current cast.

I personally always feel obligated to take Imoen along for role play purposes. She's just too much of a central and lovable character of the saga. I'm sure many players share the same sentiment.

This post has been edited by luan: Aug 1 2007, 08:31 PM

[lroumen]

With these stats she can have more chances to make the wish correctly, no? (and even if the chance of failure is high it's just more challenge, no?) The lose of INT and CHA can be justificated because of she being less jovial and childlish after what she has went through (yes, the lose of INT can't be that easily justificated in that way), and the more points in WIS can be gained because of that same experience.

Another thing you can do is change the two more points she gets in ToB because of the growing taint in her. In the Vanilla game she gains 1 STR and 1 DEX. You can put them in WIS if you wish.

Just a question: Will she be a sorceress from the very beginning or will she still be a thief/mage in Irenicus Dungeon and change in Spellhold? And, given the case, could we, players change her class again to thief/mage without screwing everything up with SK?

Ah, that's actually not a bad idea.

1- You can keep her Thief/Mage in Irenicus' Dungeon with her normal stats. People can use her in the starting Dungeon without problems.
2- When you party up with her again in Spellhold you can change her into a Sorceress with the same original Imoen stats.
Then after joining up you can add a simple banter about how Irenicus tortured her and how she learnt things about the Taint, finalising the banter in a little experience gain (probably related to the party level difference) and a respectful increase in Wisdom. You can raise it to 18 if you like and maybe if you want a stat drain on something like charisma (though not too much, she can have a net-gain in stat-score being a Child of Bhaal). That should then reflect the wisdom she earned about the Taint when she was being tortured and how much her mood swung around to something less joyful.
Finally to make the whole picture complete, add the random Innate spell ability after the banter as a "Irenicus awoke my magic capabilities and some unknown ability within me, help me find out what it does" and we're done.

That would explain everything quite nicely. It can explain the profession change, the stat change and the innate ability gain.... as well as the experience gain.




Btw, I forgot that Sikret removed the wisdom potions, but then it means that no NPC can actually use the Wish spell correctly, so now I understand why a party would benefit so much from the Imoen wisdom stat increase if the Protagonist isn't a mage. Simply because the Wish spell is then largely useless. Kind of a pity though, that no NPC can use Wish very well. I had only used it as a protagonist mage myself, I forgot about it.

This post has been edited by lroumen: Aug 1 2007, 08:51 PM

[Raven]

@ Magnus, Iroumen

Just to clarify, Sikret's original suggestion was, I believe, that Imoen is as normal in Irenicus' Dungeon (thief/mage dual), and will be changed to a sorceress (with any changes in stats etc.) once you've rescued her from Spellhold.

From your posts it sounded like you might not have realised this.

[Sikret]

Thanks for the comments, everyone!

I assure you that I am considering all suggestions, but you also surely know that there are many factors that I should consider before accepting any suggestion. Not to mention that there are certain things (both in the vanilla game and in IA) that I may be aware of while you may have not known or may have just forgotten.

Now a few remarks:

1- Intelligence is not a useful stat for a sorcerer, whereas wisodm is most important. So giving here an INT of 15 or more seems quite waste of points.

2- My original plan was to make Imoen a sorceress just after you meet her in spellhold, but later other factors and considerations made me change the plan. She will be a sorceress from the beginning. Hence, there is actually no change in her stats. Whatever stats we assign to her will be her default stats. There is no need to seek justification for why experiments in spellhold may have changed her stats, beause the stats have not actually changed.

3- Introducing a new NPC is out of question and quite irrelevant. The idea of changing Imoen's class was due to the fact that the vanilla game (absurdly) had two identical NPCs. Introducing a new NPC will not solve the mentioned problem.

4- As for "strength" spell, it has actually a problem which makes it a rather bad spell. It always overrides other items' bonuses to strength (regardless of the order). For example, if you have a character with girdle of giant strength, casting "Strength" spell on him will actually decrease her strength. And this regardless of the order, which means that even if you cast the spell before wearing the girdle, it's the "Strength" spell which will again take precedence. Also, the difference of THAC0 and damage bonus between 17 and 18/50 strength is slim. Having a permanent 17 str is much more reliable than having a temporary and unstable str of 18/50.

5- luan's suggestion that Imoen's total stats can be a bit more than those of the vanilla game seems a very good suggestion to me. I can keep her 18 wisdom and 17 str and also give her a minimum charisma and intelligence higher than 9.

I need to think more. Comments are welcome.

[Magnus_025]

I understand that your desire of giving her a STR of 17 is due to the fact that then she can fight against Golems more properly (with the new spells and the apropiate staff) and that the 18 score in WIS is for her to cast Wish correctly (mainly to refresh spells) but then again I disagree, and I'll tell you why:

-Not every player will choose Wish as a spell, because they don't like it, they use different tactics or as someone else said, it is a long spell in terms of casting time. So, if for example I'm not planning to use Wish, why I need a WIS of 18? I could benefit more of a 16 CHA and some store discount then. By the way, CHA is the prime requisite for Sorcerers, no? (Yes, I know that it actually doesn't have any effect) So giving her a CHA lesser than let's say 14 or 15 makes no sense (almost every NPC has his/her prime class stat as higher as possible in Vanilla).

-Again, and with the difficult battles ahead I don't think that much people, or well, let's just talk about me, will put her in front of a bunch of golems to try and hit them with the staff. I see Aerie more suitable to destroy a Golem with those staves. As a Cleric/Mage she will level up at a lesser rate than Imoen but will end with better THAC0, and as some people has told they could use any Strengh enhancing spell (from the Cleric pool if the Mage one is buggy). Giving her that high STR puts her totally away from Character and is kind of forcing players to give her a staff and sending her to fight in melee. And talking a little more about Aerie, she already have a WIS of 16, more suitable for Wish.

I again ask you to leave her as similar as her original self as possible and then let us decide the right tactics to use with her as a Sorcerer. In my opinion, using her as a buffer/debuffer and a little as a Golem disabler with VT and the new spells is more than enough, no?

I must clarify that even if my post/writting/tone may seem hostile it is nothing of the sort. I like these forums very much. I support IA as one of the most exciting mods, but that doesn't mean that I have to agree with everything, no? Well Sikret, you have the last word, of course, and we will accept it.

Cheers!

This post has been edited by Magnus_025: Aug 2 2007, 08:54 AM

[lroumen]

@Raven & Sikret.
I knew that she would only change in spellhold, but I guess from my post it doesn't seem like I did. I was actually just thinking out loud the summary of things to pass. I do that sometimes... I shouldn't, lol.



I think the road from thief-> thief/mage -> sorceress seems okay if you take into account the transfer between the second to the third and somewhat justify it through banter. That would even justify that she has some wizard spells known in Irenicus Dungeon because she's just "learning". And in the end when you've come to rescue her, she will have figured out (with some torture help from Irenicus) that she doesn't have to write spells in a book (wizard), but has the powers to know them by heart (sorceress). Wisdom gained so to speak, so a justified stat-change as well (and a very mild decrease in intelligence or charisma if you want.. charisma because she's more doomlike, intelligence... nothing comes to mind). You can also add into the banter that she's found a better way to play tricks on people and has given up on thieving. And if Imoen regains her soulfire when you defeat Bodhi, you might even add in some bonus for her as well (and maybe a piece lost when you let her give some essence to Sarevok).
I think that if you talk people through the profession change like that with some very nicely written banter, a lot more people could agree that yes, Imoen as a sorceress... that does seem to make sense in the end.


A solid change from thief -> thief/mage -> sorceress is well... storywise not strong at all, but it CAN be acceptible. You can imagine to start from a clean slate.... I mean, you can also choose to deny the familiarity of Minsc, Jaheira, Edwin (, Drizzt) and even Imoen herself in their starting banters, so from that point of view you don't even know what profession she used to be. I do not think that many people play it like that though and an immediate negation of her old thiefy-self would be much more of a shock than the scenario above (which was the original plan anyway).




About the Strength/melee thing. There are many options to increase her strength and I use these options quite often in-game.
- A girdle
- Strength scroll, Tenser's Transformation
- A Priest buffs her
- Normal Strength Potion (or is that removed too).

Furthermore, I think the times people would let Imoen sorceress spellspammer of Atkathla see hand-to-hand combat is still going to be nigh-zero. There are only few reasons why and when Imoen will see hand-to-hand combat that I can truly think of.
1. The party gets surprised from behind (following she will be buffed or even hidden, then possibly melee).
2. The player has prebuffed her a lot which is needed regardless of 17 strength.
3. She sneaks in Vampiric Touch a foe when that foe is already engaged with a true fighter from the party (or a summon). May need a buff or a safe contingency at least (though people have that most of the time).

I think I will probably fool around with her abilities anyway and let her go melee a few times, but I will probably buff her a lot and a strength buff is just one more buff, so that's no problem. I don't think she needs the big strength bonus even if she were a child of Bhaal, since there are already other options to increase her strength. You could give her a few points to say 11 or 12 if you like, just for Bhaal-child aestetics but that's not truly needed. There are surely Bhaalspawn that were born to a frail mother and thus their children are more frail as well.
Furthermore, she already gets the Fracture Golem spell (or other name) which if I understood doesn't need to be cast from touch range, so she can still help tackle golems quite well. If one Protagonist is a mage she will probably never even lift that golemsmasher staff, but if a player wants her to use it s/he'll probably be buffing her anyway with gear or spells.

I think the Wisdom increase is more justified, since there are no wisdom buffing potions anymore and you can learn something from the torturing/awakening, and I agree with Magnus that a low Charisma for a sorceress doesn't make much sense, even if it doesn't do anything for the spells in-game.


Just some thoughts.

[Sikret]

Just some quick replies:

@Magnus:

1- Aerie can't use the Golem Slayer staff. It's not usable by multi-class mages.

2- Your tone didn't sound hostile to me, my friend. Feel free to express your opinion anytime you disagree with me in any case.

@Iroumen:

1- I don't know why you are still talking about "justifications" through "banters". As I mentioned in my last post, Imoen will have the new class and those new stats from the start of the game. So, there will be no change in her class and stats in spellhold and there will be no need to add banters to justify anything.

2- All strength boosting methods you mentioned (except the girdle) are dispellable and unstable. And the girdle may be better to be given to another party member.

One other point:

One of my reasons to change Imoen a sorcerer is to remove the temptation of making multi-player custom sorcerer. If Imoen changes to an incompetent sorceress, I (for one) will still prefer to make a custom multi-player sorcerer and leave Imoen out of the party. That's why I'm trying to make her an efficient sorceress.

This post has been edited by Sikret: Aug 2 2007, 03:26 PM

[lroumen]

Okay, that's all fair enough. I'm looking forward to seeing the changes implemented eitehr way .

[Arkain]

[...] By the way, CHA is the prime requisite for Sorcerers, no? (Yes, I know that it actually doesn't have any effect) So giving her a CHA lesser than let's say 14 or 15 makes no sense (almost every NPC has his/her prime class stat as higher as possible in Vanilla). [...]

Only in D&D 3.0 and 3.5, afair. AD&D on which BG is based doesn't even have a sorcerer class, iirc.

Well... what's left? Ah right. I agree with Sikret: if Imoen is going to be a sorcerer in IA she should be an efficient one.

This post has been edited by Arkain: Aug 2 2007, 07:17 PM