Tactical advice for Tarnor in the Sewers Options

[sturmvogel]

Having struggled mightily with Mencar Pebblecrusher's party (none of Keldorn's 3 Dispel Magics dropped Sorcerous Amon's protections (thank ghod for Emotion!)) I'm a bit concerned about trying to deal with Tarnor's crowd, which has always been more of a struggle for me in the regular game since I've never been a very tactically elegant player.
I gather than my normal tactic of invisibly sneaking up and letting off a double cloudkill has been deprecated by Sikret and would like some advice for my 1.2 million XP party consisting of:

Me R/C
Keldorn
Jahiera
Yoshio
Xan F/M
Kelsey

[leonidas]

You'll be glad to know this version is much much harder than the original.

I'd separate your sorcerer from the rest of your party and use him to absorb the greater commands from the two clerics (obv he needs chaotic commands up, and probably a death ward and protection from lightning and protection from magical energy(cast from a scroll)).

Before hand I would also buy 2 death spells scrolls to deal with the initial barrage of summons, freeing up all my level 6 spell slots for imp haste.

The idea is to have xan take on the bulk of the melee hitters, while kelsey absorbs spells from the casters (while hopefully the rest of your party is out of range). Remember, the meleeing npcs in IA will tend to switch targets a lot, but you stand the best chance of being hit if you are the closest character to that particular npc. Concentrate on the two dwarven fighters first, they are far weaker defensively.

The rest is just a question of whether or not you have enough melee power, personally I would drop yoshimo and get a decent fighter (korgan preferably, but go rescue mazzy if you are being good). Probably a good idea to stock up on strength potions from roger too.

Finally, the mage will last a lot lot longer than the rest of his grp. I made the mistake of not carrying normal weapons (he will start to spam pfmw towards the end of his life; real nuisance when he can hack apart fighters in melee). Carry normals weapons to hit him with when he goes into his cheese mode. He also has a triple chain lightning spell trigger he likes he cast when he is badly injured.

[sturmvogel]

Thanks for the quick reply, Leonidas. I hadn't even considered your approach, probably because I haven't actually scouted out their tactics; I was toying with Yoshio luring them down the corridor into his traps, which I generally never use.
What do you do about traps if you don't have a thief in the party? I'd hate to waste spell slots on find traps, etc. and I'm less than enthusiastic about just sucking up the damage and bashing my way into the chest or whatever. I was toying with the idea of trading Yoshio for Valygar as Sikret's item upgrades make him much more worthwhile, IMO, but I'm just not sure how to survive without a thief of some sort.

I've never used Mazzy, but I really question my ability to complete the whole Shade Lord quest at my current level which I'd need to finish to release her. Hell, I'm not confident of my ability to finish De'Arnisse Keep at this level.

How long do you expect Xan's stoneskins to last if he's the main melee fighter? Should the rest of my guys stand back and snipe while this is going on? Or should they close for melee combat a few rounds after everything has started?
I always carry normal weapons. A lesson learned many, many moons ago.

I've pretty much done all of the quests except the Unseeing Eye (gotta learn how to deal with Beholders without the Shield of Cheese) that don't involve IA upgrades so I'm running out of things to do within my tactical competence. If I get this one figured out maybe I'll try the Horrid Rakhasa next. Him I've already had two unpleasant experiences with so I'll be needing advice again.

[Sikret]

Finally, the mage will last a lot lot longer than the rest of his grp. I made the mistake of not carrying normal weapons (he will start to spam pfmw towards the end of his life; real nuisance when he can hack apart fighters in melee). Carry normals weapons to hit him with when he goes into his cheese mode. He also has a triple chain lightning spell trigger he likes he cast when he is badly injured.

I think you have mistaken Gaius with some other mage, leonidas!

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Gaius doesn't cast any pfmw. He has 4 scrolls of Improved Mantle. So, normal weapons won't affect him. You should either successfully breach him (which is not easy because he has SI:abjuration) or have weapons with +4 enchantments with you. He also has 2 memorized Stoneskin spells and one other reserved in a contingency.

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End of spoilers

[Sikret]

@sturmvogel

Perhaps going for the Unseeing Eye quest (before dealing with Tarnor) is better for your party. The Unseeing Eye quest (the main quest) is not improved by IA. There are, of course, two difficult battles in two areas related to the Unseeing Eye quest, but none of them is mandatory to finish the main quest there.

[Mongerman]

You could always use yoshimo to lead one or two of the fighters on a merry chase...divide and conquer

[luan]

I actually ran all the way out into the temple district!

[sturmvogel]

@sturmvogel

Perhaps going for the Unseeing Eye quest (before dealing with Tarnor) is better for your party. The Unseeing Eye quest (the main quest) is not improved by IA. There are, of course, two difficult battles in two areas related to the Unseeing Eye quest, but none of them is mandatory to finish the main quest there.

You're probably right, Sikret. I really do need to learn how to beat Beholders without artificial crutches like the Shield of Cheese and I can use the XP as well. I'm just not looking forward to it since there are so damn many of them!

Maybe it's time for Jahiera's Greater Bearwares to get another workout! Let your summonses do the work!

[Sikret]

I actually ran all the way out into the temple district!

That's why they now ask for ten times more money than they did in the vanilla game. Had you noticed this?

[rbeverjr]

I actually found the horrid rakasha harder than this group. I ended up letting the rakasha chase me around, banging him every now and then, until his protections ran out. Of course you need to clean out a loop in the sewers for your race.

I suggest going around both the rakasha and the overwhelmingly experienced sewer dwelling toll keepers Complete the Unseeing Eye Quest while avoiding Sikret's improvements. Follow thetruth and Sikret's outline of initial quests. First do the unimproved quests, then the copper coronet/slavers, etc. Right before the underdark, visit De'Arnis Keep. It's tough now. All the strongholds are tough for low levels. Be sure that you can cast Death Fog or at least bring a scroll of it.

Strategies to kill beholders have been presented on this forum. So, you can search if you'd rather not figure it out for yourself.

[Sikret]

I'm so glad to see that most of you (rbeverjr, luan, ...) are now enjoying the difficult battles of IA. Some of you were initially just a little bit worried about the difficulty of battles, but now from the successive reports of your triumphs, I gather that everything is going fine. And of course, the satisfaction of winning a difficult battle is greater than an easy one (not to mention the items you find and the XP you gain. In addition to the XP your characters gain, you -as the player- also gain tactical experience as some of you have mentioned before). I assure you that you will not enjoy playing the game with a lower level of difficulty any more. Welcome to the circle of tacticians!



PS: By the way, I forgot to ask you, rbeverjr! What was the first item you forged? I remember that a while ago, you wrote that you finally managed to forge your first improved item in the game.

[leonidas]

Thanks for the quick reply, Leonidas. I hadn't even considered your approach, probably because I haven't actually scouted out their tactics; I was toying with Yoshio luring them down the corridor into his traps, which I generally never use.
What do you do about traps if you don't have a thief in the party? I'd hate to waste spell slots on find traps, etc. and I'm less than enthusiastic about just sucking up the damage and bashing my way into the chest or whatever. I was toying with the idea of trading Yoshio for Valygar as Sikret's item upgrades make him much more worthwhile, IMO, but I'm just not sure how to survive without a thief of some sort.

I've never used Mazzy, but I really question my ability to complete the whole Shade Lord quest at my current level which I'd need to finish to release her. Hell, I'm not confident of my ability to finish De'Arnisse Keep at this level.

How long do you expect Xan's stoneskins to last if he's the main melee fighter? Should the rest of my guys stand back and snipe while this is going on? Or should they close for melee combat a few rounds after everything has started?
I always carry normal weapons. A lesson learned many, many moons ago.

I've pretty much done all of the quests except the Unseeing Eye (gotta learn how to deal with Beholders without the Shield of Cheese) that don't involve IA upgrades so I'm running out of things to do within my tactical competence. If I get this one figured out maybe I'll try the Horrid Rakhasa next. Him I've already had two unpleasant experiences with so I'll be needing advice again.

Tbh, stoneskins will probably last as long as the round you cast it in. To be an effective decoy xan will need pfmw scrolls. Also, there is no way xan will kill anything by himself, and IIRC missile damage is futile. I had ilbratha, gave it to keldorn and used him as a secondary decoy of sorts. This allowed an imp. hasted korgan and imp. hasted vagrant to chop up tarnor and that other dwarf in a few rounds w/o taking any real damage, all the while haer'dalis distracted gallchobhair.

It's challenging at 1.2 mil xp, but as long as you have imp haste it's probably doable. And coincidentally enough, that's around the level I managed it, using a similar tactic (haer'dalis instead of xan, edwin instead of kelsey). But I did have about 4 or 5 pfmw weapon scrolls left over from slaughtering various enemies, that allowed me to survive the melee onslaught.

In retrospect, the reason I didn't use normal weapons to kill gaius is because he is one of the few mages who uses mantle instead (thanks sikret!). Although, I'm pretty sure the rest of the info is accurate.

[rbeverjr]

I'm so glad to see that most of you (rbeverjr, luan, ...) are now enjoying the difficult battles of IA. Some of you were initially just a little bit worried about the difficulty of battles, but now from the successive reports of your triumphs, I gather that everything is going fine. And of course, the satisfaction of winning a difficult battle is greater than an easy one (not to mention the items you find and the XP you gain. In addition to the XP your characters gain, you -as the player- also gain tactical experience as some of you have mentioned before). I assure you that you will not enjoy playing the game with a lower level of difficulty any more. Welcome to the circle of tacticians!

You are right about that. It's the reason I returned to IA after my initial objections to IA3 (which primarily runs along the lines of I like a difference between boss battles and mook battles). But the other games, even modded, just seemed too easy after IA3.

PS: By the way, I forgot to ask you, rbeverjr! What was the first item you forged? I remember that a while ago, you wrote that you finally managed to forge your first improved item in the game.

Boots of Improved Haste for the kensai protagonist. He now as an APR of 9-10, which can't be dispelled. He can add Critical Strike and Hardiness. He even has a decent AC until one of those nasty mages Dispel it.

I am finding some money now!!! Watchers Keep is shelling some over, and I found the flail of Easthaven that I convinced a demilich to hand over. I just have to check my bottomless bags for ingredients. I want that improved Easthaven. It should be a satisfactory substitute for the Flail of Ages .

This post has been edited by rbeverjr: May 15 2007, 01:27 PM

[sturmvogel]

I missed the fact that Theshal had been improved, but I managed to avoid triggering him simultaneously with the group of monsters further west so he was merely a real pain in the ass. I was surprised to see how well I survived his Storm of Vengeance, but the Greater Bearwares saved the day as usual. Very tiresome for my PC to act as the target dummy, but somebody had to do it. And since he had the best AC, -9, guess who was nominated.
Focused on all the "normal" undead first even though Theshal brought in a bone devil, who was surprisingly ineffective, and 3-4 Skeleton Warriors. Figured it was more important to get rid of all the melee monsters first while his protections wore off. Took quite a long time for my entire party to beat him down.

Keldon wielding the +2 MoD only took out one Greater Mummy during the entire battle in the Undead City. Much lower percentage than I'm used to.

Jahiera's pets took care of the Beholders without any problems although two of the cultists were unattackable (which I've never seen before) and then I got a CTD when the Unseeing Eye appeared. I'll have to wait until later to see if this is a reproducible problem or not.
There were a lot fewer Beholders than I remember from earlier games. I wonder if it was because of my relatively low level this time through or if was related somehow to the CTD. I think I've got the max spawns installed from Tactics so I'd expect more.

This post has been edited by sturmvogel: May 15 2007, 01:35 PM

[rbeverjr]

Keldon wielding the +2 MoD only took out one Greater Mummy during the entire battle in the Undead City. Much lower percentage than I'm used to.

My experience with MOD +2 in IA 4.2 is it is good for negative plane protection (off-hand use) and only in my main hand if I don't have a better +4 weapon to beat on demiliches with. (Of course, this is in a small way prejudiced as none of my main melee guys are specialized in the mace.) In the regular game, it was very good for smashing undead.

There were a lot fewer Beholders than I remember from earlier games. I wonder if it was because of my relatively low level this time through or if was related somehow to the CTD. I think I've got the max spawns installed from Tactics so I'd expect more.

I was pleasantly surprised at how few beholders I encountered. I always had played with Toughest Random Dungeon Encounters from Tactics in the past, but skipped it for IA. That mod certainly adds more beholders.

[sturmvogel]

I actually found the horrid rakasha harder than this group. I ended up letting the rakasha chase me around, banging him every now and then, until his protections ran out. Of course you need to clean out a loop in the sewers for your race.

I suggest going around both the rakasha and the overwhelmingly experienced sewer dwelling toll keepers Complete the Unseeing Eye Quest while avoiding Sikret's improvements. Follow thetruth and Sikret's outline of initial quests. First do the unimproved quests, then the copper coronet/slavers, etc. Right before the underdark, visit De'Arnis Keep. It's tough now. All the strongholds are tough for low levels. Be sure that you can cast Death Fog or at least bring a scroll of it.

I've been a bit intimidated by all the talk of the multiplying assassins in the Slaver HQ as they were a real problem in my brief battle with Borinall (before pulling the plug). Not sure if I wanted to deal with them as one of my early improved quests or not.

I'm very fond of Death Fog although Sikret has reduced its effects against the bosses. But I'm not sure that I want Kelsey to use a spell slot for it when he levels up in a bit. So far I've got PfME and Imp. Haste chosen, but Contingency is really tempting for my next 6th level spell.

[Mongerman]

You think the assassins in the slavers ship are bad...just you wait... Then again, that later encounter gives you a huge amount of gold as well, with all the magical items dropped.

[rbeverjr]

I've been a bit intimidated by all the talk of the multiplying assassins in the Slaver HQ as they were a real problem in my brief battle with Borinall (before pulling the plug). Not sure if I wanted to deal with them as one of my early improved quests or not.

I'm very fond of Death Fog although Sikret has reduced its effects against the bosses. But I'm not sure that I want Kelsey to use a spell slot for it when he levels up in a bit. So far I've got PfME and Imp. Haste chosen, but Contingency is really tempting for my next 6th level spell.

I think that the slaver ship in the slums (not slaver HQ in the temple area) is a little easier than taking the keep. If you can't take that ship, I'd bet you probably can't take the keep either. Both are challenging to low levels in my opinion.

A sorcerer's spell selection is important, and the selection for IA 4.2 will most certainly be different from the regular game. Death Fog is great for at least 2 reasons. Sometimes the enemy spams summons. (That's when you are lucky. Others will gait in improved golems or "snake" princes.) Death Fog gets rid of them - ongoing effect. Sometimes, the enemy mages don't put up protection from acid. Death Fog allows an ongoing possibility to interrupt their spell casting while they are laughing at you behind their electric ball of immunity abjuration. If you are lucky it works like that, but many of Sikret's monsters have very good magic and/or acid resistance...

This post has been edited by rbeverjr: May 15 2007, 06:02 PM

[Shaitan]

but the Greater Bearwares saved the day as usual

Hi! I had a while ago troubles with the beastmaster summoning these beasts. They stem from the "Shapeshifter Rebalancing" part of the G3 tweaks. Avoid that part of the tweakpack to make it easier...

[Sikret]

I'd probably choose either "Protection From Magic Energy" or "Death Spell" as my next 6th level spell, though playing styles are different and several different combination of spells can work (more or less) equally fine for a sorcerer.

thetruth may also give you some advice about the most useful spells a sorcerer can pick.