Comments on Vagrant kit, Send them here Options

[nataben1314]

In addition to the minimum charisma requirement, I'm also thinking of adding immunity to some beneficial spells to the kit as new disadvantages. Immunity to "Resist Fire/Cold", "Protection from fire", "Protection from cold", "Protection from Lightning", "Protection from Electricity", "Protection from the Elements", "Protection from Energy" spells (the immunity doesn't cover immunity to potions or items which grant elemental resistances of course, but just spells). The justification would be that the kit's innate resistance to the elements takes precedence and overrides those spells' effects. It's just a rough idea for now. I have not implemented it yet. Any comments?

My worry there would be that it would effectively change the true nature of the advantage (that is, the end net benefit in comparison with a normal ranger) from "gets extra protection from elemental damage" to "saves you some gold and/or casting slots". The former seems much cooler than the latter. I certainly don't think that having very high resistances to elemental damage would be overpowered. I haven't even played IA yet, but from what I've surmised from reading this forum it seems like not a whole ton of enemies focus primarily on elemental-based attacks (and having a few that do is perfectly ok and welcome if you ask me, it would only be overpowered if it was a huge advantage against a large chunk of improved enemies).

[rbeverjr]

In addition to the minimum charisma requirement, I'm also thinking of adding immunity to some beneficial spells to the kit as new disadvantages. Immunity to "Resist Fire/Cold", "Protection from fire", "Protection from cold", "Protection from Lightning", "Protection from Electricity", "Protection from the Elements", "Protection from Energy" spells (the immunity doesn't cover immunity to potions or items which grant elemental resistances of course, but just spells). The justification would be that the kit's innate resistance to the elements takes precedence and overrides those spells' effects. It's just a rough idea for now. I have not implemented it yet. Any comments?

Protection from Energy is one of my favorite spells, and I would prefer that he not be immune to that. Immunity to any of the listed spells may make his inherent immunity a mixed advantage/disadvantage. (I think more of a disadvantage.) You could make the resistances not stack if you wanted (highest resistance is in effect). But even that would mean the elemental resistance is not an advantage, because it's not enough. I would end up using a spell to protect him anyway. Similarly, the main (but not only) reason that I haven't used the riskbreaker kit is that he seems fragile at lower levels considering his immunity to spirit armor.

I'm considering on coverting Valygar to a vagrant using SK. Will this be allowed?

This post has been edited by rbeverjr: Jun 28 2007, 01:17 PM

[Sikret]

I'm considering on coverting Valygar to a vagrant using SK. Will this be allowed?

It's doable, but it's better if your have your protagonist as a vagrant, because you will see some minor changes in the game with a vagrant protagonist which you won't see even if one of your NPCs is a vagrant. There is also a new item upgrade which will be offered by Cromwell (and Cespenar) only if your main PC is a vagrant.

[Arkain]

Mhm... depends. The new Vagrant's advantages include his ever growing resistances to elemental damage. While these get really high later on, it would be a huge disadvantage if he were immune to most protection spells.
One can protect the vagrant though - as the character could use equipment and potions. It would still be nice if he wasn't immune to likely all protection spells. Maybe you consider rbe...'s idea of only the highest value working. Or you make the kit immune to low level protection spells? Something like Protection from Energy (which I like very much as well, btw ) as a high level spell would work simply because it's such a powerful spell.
What I'm wondering about: the justification is okay. But why would his innate resistance to elements overwrite the spells? I've always imagined that not all are working in the same manner. Protection from Magic Energy for example creates an aura around you (such as Protection from Evil... which's effect it is ) protecting you. So why would his innate resistances override this (note: this is an example. I know that this spell isn't included in you list)?

This post has been edited by Arkain: Jun 28 2007, 04:38 PM

[Sikret]

Ok, I dropped the idea of immunity to those beneficial spells.

What if I let the vagrant to reach grandmastery in axes and clubs, but confine him to one proficiency stars in some other weapons? If yes, which weapons do you suggest for him not to have more than one stars in?

As a character who spends most of his time at lakesides and woodlands, he seems to be more in harmony with his axe (with which he makes boats and cut woods) and the club he makes out of the woods rather than (say) a bastard sword or a halberd, eh?

I have not implemented this either, I'm looking for opinions and feedback.

[Toxeus]

What if I let the vagrant to reach grandmastery in axes and clubs, but confine him to one proficiency stars in some other weapons? If yes, which weapons do you suggest for him not to have more than one stars in?

I suggest 5* in simple tramp's weapon: clubs, daggers, staffs. And only 1* in flails, hammers, halberds and all big swords (two handed, bastard, long, exotic ones).
He still can use axes, spears, short swords, bows and slings with usual rangers proficiency.

This post has been edited by Toxeus: Jul 2 2007, 10:43 AM

[rbeverjr]

What if I let the vagrant to reach grandmastery in axes and clubs, but confine him to one proficiency stars in some other weapons? If yes, which weapons do you suggest for him not to have more than one stars in?

I favor leaving >2 star proficiency to fighters (and kits) exclusively.

[Shadan]

I think there is a medium way between 2* and 5*. I wouldn't like 5* at a ranger kit, but a 3* is welcome. 3* with clubs, axes, staffs. 1* with all big swords, hammers, halberds. Others are 2*.

[leonidas]

I favor leaving >2 star proficiency to fighters (and kits) exclusively.

IIRC archers can reach grandmastery in bows, so the precedent is already there in the original game.

[Marceror]

Leonidas, you're correct that the precendent is there, but the difference in my opinion is that the Archer is a class built around mastery with the bow.

I don't see the same level of connection on the part of the vagrant with any particular weapon. I think mastery with a few choice weapons that this class is likely to use on a regular basis is cool. But I don't see him/her putting forth the level of focus on weaponry to achieve grand mastery.

This is all somewhat subjective reasoning, but in the case of the archer grandmastery seems logical and appropriate. I don't feel the same in regards to the vagrant. Just another opinion to throw into the mix....

[(Ø=M)^42]

I agree with Marceror, for what that's worth.

[Sikret]

Vagrant kit's newest description is this:

VAGRANT: Vagrants do not stay in a place for long. They spend most of their time exploring new wilderness areas and enjoying the beauties of nature. Woodlands and lakes are the most favorite places for vagrants. They are very healthy characters with exceptional stamina. Vagrants can develop a special kind of friendship with swanmays. Swanmays are very rare and special kind of lycanthrope rangers living at lakesides in woodlands and in remote temperate wetlands. High level vagrants can call for swanmays' help.

Advantages:

1- +1 bonus to Constitution
2- Immunity to disease and poison
3- +2 bonus to all saving throws
4- 15% resistance to elemental damage for every 6 levels of experience
5- Gians the ability to summon Swanmay at levels 13, 16 and 19.
6- Gains the ability to summon Greater Swanmay at levels 22 and 25.
7- Gains the ability to summon 'Swanmay Queen' at level 28.
The swanmays will loyally fight at the vagrant's side for 20 rounds.

Disadvantages:

1- May not wear armor greater than studded leather
2- Cannot specialize in ranged weapons
3- Requires 12 Charisma
4- Cannot dual class

This post has been edited by Sikret: Aug 7 2007, 06:04 AM

[(Ø=M)^42]

Just a small typo:
5- Gians
should be Gains.

Concerning the summons: Will you at level 28 be able to summon 3 Swanmays, 2 Greater Swanmays and 1 Swanmay Queen per day, or will the lesser ones be lost or converted to Queen? Can you have one of each summoned at the same time? Do they have any kind of special abilities or spells, or are they "point and attack" summons?

I read this thread yesterday, but I'm not sure what you decided to do about the elemental resistance. Will it stack with spells/potions/items?

Does "2- Cannot specialize in ranged weapons" mean vagrants can get only 1 * in ranged weapons, or none at all, but still be able to use them? Not that ranged weapons are what I'd plan on using anyway, as it seems weak and unreliable in IA. That being said, I don't see why Vagrants should not be good at using ranged weapons, but if you want to it should be pretty easy to come up with a good explanation. Maybe not being able to use heavy or large weapons would be more fitting, as that'd be much work to carry around when you're a vagrant, and that could lead to them not having as much training as with lighter and smaller weapons?

Disadvantages vs advantages seems balanced and fitting for the kit. This looks interesting, and I will play a Vagrant in 4.3.

[Sikret]

Just a small typo:
5- Gians
should be Gains.

Thanks! Just fixed it.

Concerning the summons: Will you at level 28 be able to summon 3 Swanmays, 2 Greater Swanmays and 1 Swanmay Queen per day,

Yes.

or will the lesser ones be lost or converted to Queen?

No.

Do they have any kind of special abilities or spells, or are they "point and attack" summons?

Swanmays are lycanthropes, half human half swan. They are winged and have special attacks with their wings. Normal swanmays have "Wing Swing"; greater ones have "Greater Wing Swing" and the Queen has "Royal Wing Swing". You don't need to do anything during the battle, they will use their special attacks accordingly.

I read this thread yesterday, but I'm not sure what you decided to do about the elemental resistance. Will it stack with spells/potions/items?

Yes.

Does "2- Cannot specialize in ranged weapons" mean vagrants can get only 1 * in ranged weapons,

Yes.

That being said, I don't see why Vagrants should not be good at using ranged weapons, but if you want to it should be pretty easy to come up with a good explanation.

What I thought as a possible explanation is that ranged weapons are mostly used by those who are defending a fortress from inside. Vagrants have little experience with defedning castles and such places because they are mostly in travel.

Disadvantages vs advantages seems balanced and fitting for the kit.

Yes, testers have also reported that the kit is balanced.

This looks interesting, and I will play a Vagrant in 4.3.

Glad to hear that you have found it interesting. Also, the new quest added to the expanded ranger stronghold (= The Good, the Bad and the Ugly) is a vagrant specific-quest. Only vagrant rangers can see and play that quest.

[lroumen]

The disadvantages look a lot like those of an archer, and you have a similar amount of disadvantages compared to the other vanilla kits. There are more bonuses than normally but I think overall it should work out fine since it's balanced especially for IA play.


I was planning to play a stalker from a BG1 game that I finished 2 weeks ago, but it has a movement bug when I imported it to BG2. I can edit it out but BG2 starts weirdly without the starting cutscene so I'm wary of playing with the character now. Hence, I'm going to reinstall BG2 and make a new character. Since there is already a stalker in the game whose overpowered items I will never be able to top I might as well try something else and Vagrant looks really good.


Just something halfrelated to the Vagrant.
I was wondering one thing. I recall that protagonist divine casters do not get the +bonusspells that were based on wisdom. For instance if you have 15 wisdom, you were supposed to get the +1 level 1 priest spell (I cannot recall the correct bonus here from the table). Also, when you gain +1 wisdom from an ioun stone (or you start with 15-18 wisdom) you should have the +bonusspells as listed. The bug was that the NPCs have them but the protagonist never did receive them for some reason. I was wondering if you had fixed this in your current BG2 or whether it is already fixed since it would relate to the casting power of the Vagrant class.

[Raven]

Just something halfrelated to the Vagrant.
I was wondering one thing. I recall that protagonist divine casters do not get the +bonusspells that were based on wisdom. For instance if you have 15 wisdom, you were supposed to get the +1 level 1 priest spell (I cannot recall the correct bonus here from the table). Also, when you gain +1 wisdom from an ioun stone (or you start with 15-18 wisdom) you should have the +bonusspells as listed. The bug was that the NPCs have them but the protagonist never did receive them for some reason. I was wondering if you had fixed this in your current BG2 or whether it is already fixed since it would relate to the casting power of the Vagrant class.

Iroumen, only clerics and druids get bonus spells based on Wisdom. Rangers and paladins don't get bonus spells in BG2 as far as I know (no matter how good their Wis is). My cleric and druid protagonists have always had bonus spells generated correctly (like it says in the manual); I've never noticed such a bug.

This post has been edited by Raven: Aug 8 2007, 11:28 AM

[lroumen]

Paladins and Rangers are Clerics and Druids in theory. I thought it should have worked that way. Well, I guess I might be wrong

[aVENGER]

Paladins and Rangers are Clerics and Druids in theory. I thought it should have worked that way.

Nope, the rules are pretty explicit about that:

A ranger can learn priest spells, but only those of the plant or animal spheres (see "Priest" later in this chapter), when he reaches 8th level (see Table 18). He gains and uses his spells according to the rules given for priests. He does not gain bonus spells for a high Wisdom score, nor is he ever able to use priest scrolls or magical items unless specially noted otherwise.

[lroumen]

Paladins and Rangers are Clerics and Druids in theory. I thought it should have worked that way.

Nope, the rules are pretty explicit about that:

A ranger can learn priest spells, but only those of the plant or animal spheres (see "Priest" later in this chapter), when he reaches 8th level (see Table 18). He gains and uses his spells according to the rules given for priests. He does not gain bonus spells for a high Wisdom score, nor is he ever able to use priest scrolls or magical items unless specially noted otherwise.

Okay, I stand corrected. I guess I always misunderstood then.

But on another note, I have been able to use all priest scrolls with my ranger in BG2.

[Sikret]

The only advantage of the kit which I'm not fully comfortable/satisfied with is the +2 bonus vs. all saving throws. A constitution of 19 should have automatically granted +1 bonus to save vs. paralyze/Death; but unfortunately, the game's engine doesn't handle it. So, it seems that all we need to add is a +1 bonus vs. paralyze/Death *if* the bonus is supposed to be a consequence of high constitution and good stamina. But if we want the bonus to saves to be an independent advantage, it's a different question. Any comments?