Misc. Questions on Difficulty, Party Composition, and Spell Selection Options

[nataben1314]

It seems as though, judging from another and not having actually played the mod yet (waiting for v4), that mages are now in a situation where they are used almost totally for dispelling, immuning other characters, and creating summons. Would those in the know (esp. sikret/thetruth) agree with that? I'm not trying to imply that this is necessarily a negative if true, I'm just interested for the sake of future spell and party selection

Speaking of party selection, do you think I'd be making things too hard for myself to make a party of single-class characters? I've always disliked multiclasses unless soloing, and am not too keen on having a party full of five fighter/x's and one ranger/cleric.

And on difficulty, I wonder if it would be possible to make a rough difficulty guide for the quests of chapters 2 and/or 6? What I envision is something like e.g. "windspear hills: level 9-13 minimum" or whatever. With all the new content its difficult for me to know which are the easier quests and which are the ones best left to chapter 6. And for a player of my (low) skill level, it is difficult to determine if you are losing a fight due to wrong tactics, or due to the fact that you're simply too low of a level for that fight. So a general quest difficulty guide (at least for chapters 2/6 where the game is not very linear, and maybe a minimum avg. level before going off to spellhold) would likely save me much frustration and/or lots of me making HELP threads

thanks, and I can't wait until v4.

[thetruth]

It seems as though, judging from another and not having actually played the mod yet (waiting for v4), that mages are now in a situation where they are used almost totally for dispelling, immuning other characters, and creating summons.

This is not entirely true.
They are still effective offensively but not the overpowered class that could kill any enemy in the game without help from other characters in the party.
There are difficult battles in IA where a Mage cannot win solo.

What has changed mainly in IA is that the enemies are those who limit offensively Mages:

a)with their scripts
b)with their buffs/resistances/special abilities.

Also in IA4 Sikret has made some nice changes (Bug fixes and Tweaks) that make the game more "fair" and balanced.
These changes have also limited the "overpowerness" of Arcane spell-casters.

I suggest that anyone who installs IA4 read carefully the Readmes of the mod before he/she starts playing the game.

Speaking of party selection, do you think I'd be making things too hard for myself to make a party of single-class characters? I've always disliked multiclasses unless soloing, and am not too keen on having a party full of five fighter/x's and one ranger/cleric.

It would be harder with single-classed characters only but not impossible.

I dislike too multiclasses but they can help a lot in IA (especially F/Ms, F/Ts).
But you could also dual class 1-2 of your characters.The only problem is that good THACO helps a lot in IA and dual-classed characters (unless if dualed at high level) do not have it.

Anyway the party with which I have tested IA4 was:

1) PC - Stalker
2) Jaheira
3) Keldorn
4) Jan
5) Haer'Dalis
6) Sarevok (I dualled him immediately to a Mage - stupid decision since he reactivated his class late in ToB but I wanted to do it once)

Very useful in my party was Keldorn (with his Dispel Magic) and Haer'Dalis.
Also Imoen or Nalia would be much more useful than Jan (faster Mage progression).
So if you still want only single classed characters I suggest the Blade and the Inquisitor.

Whatever your decision is though, take a Cleric in your party.
I didn't and I regretted it.

And on difficulty, I wonder if it would be possible to make a rough difficulty guide for the quests of chapters 2 and/or 6?

I suggest this order:


1) Circus
2) Viconia,Jan
3) Graveyard (but leave Kitthix for later)
4) Montaron & Harpers
5) Murders - Bridge District
6) Slavers and Lilarcor
7) MaeVar
8) Start if you want the Umar Hills (not the Temple yet)
9) Trademeet quests (except from ... you will understand what - just save frequently)

and then start the bigger quests.

- De Arnise Hold
- Unseeing Eye (can be very easy or difficult depending on your experience)
- Planar Prison
- Planar Sphere
- Temple Ruins
- Windspear Hills

Of course you could always go to save Imoen but I wouldn't suggest rushing it.

Mordokai and the other testers can give their own order for these quests.
Just save often and even if you see that a quest is too diffult for your level you can always reload.

And don't forget that BWL is here for eventual problems

[Sikret]

Hi, nataben!

I believe that the answer to some of the questions you asked (ex: Multi or dual characters) really depend on the player's style. Nonetheless, in addition to those valuable hints thetruth gave to you, I will also make my attempt to make some (hopefully) helpful points:

1- In order to see more new content during the game either choose a ranger or a mage/sorcerer protagonist. If you want to choose a ranger, I recommend not to choose an Archer. Choose either a kitless ranger or a stalker or a ranger/cleric. And if you want to choose a different class and then dual to mage, I recommend against choosing a dual-class Kensai-mage. A dual class Berserker-mage or a dual-class Swashbuckler-mage are just fine. Single class mage or sorcerer is fine too. A wild mage is also excellent.

2- Having a powerful Berserker in the party is also a very brilliant idea (for the enrage ability); since Korgan is evil and will leave your party when you reach a high reputation (and you need high reputation to see some of the new quests); so if you want a berserker, I may recommend starting a multi-player game and making a custom Berserker, though note that the berserker should not be your protagonist if you want to see more new content in the game (see above).

3- Having at least one powerful mage is still a must. So, if your main PC is not a mage, you should either make a custom mage for your party or to have Nalia (playing a mageless party and waiting for Imoen is too risky).

4- If you have Auramaster Druid kit v5, then you need to have Cernd in your party as well. Auramasters are very effective and powerful druids.

5- Keldorn and Valygar are also recommended additions to your party. The former for his excellent dispel magics and the latter for his powerful kit and his excellent improved items.

6- As for which quest should be done earlier and which later, I have already given a list of the easier quests here. As thetruth said, if you find a battle too difficult for your party, you can simply reload the game and postpone it to a later stage of the game (though thetruth has done all of the chapter 2 quests in chapter 2 during testing the mod, it's not easy or recommended for everyone to do so.)

Cheers

[Demivrgvs]

Why did you recommended not to choose an archer? I always thought it'was a great class and a powerful kit...

[rbeverjr]

As my question is similar, I'll just post on this thread. I am currently playing through 3.0 for the first time using a morituri, sorcerer, FMT, and RC. When I hit ToB, I was thinking about switching to morituri, sorcerer, kensai 13-mage (hacked Edwin), and swashbuckler (no cleric). My experience suggests that in Sikret battles a fully charged Rod of Resurrection (ranged heal) works better than a cleric. Do you advise that I keep the RC, thetruth?

Also, I was frustrated that my Inquisitor's Dispel Magic wasn't so helpful. I guess it was that when I really needed that spell, the target(s) were immune. I also have not found backstab or even high level traps to be very helpful. I snuck up on the whore house lady (Galvena?) and backstabbed her for 5 times damage reducing her to ... barely injured!? And when I needed my high level traps to work, they had no effect - I don't know why. So, I thought about the swashbuckler simply because of AC, UAI, and taking care of traps and locks.

I also doubt that I am of thetruth's skill level. On my first time through with this party of 4, I often have to reload at least once during the Sikret battles. When facing Firkraag at level 15, I probably had to reload 3 or 4 times. So, any advice to keep the frustration level down would be appreciated.

[thetruth]

My experience suggests that in Sikret battles a fully charged Rod of Resurrection (ranged heal) works better than a cleric. Do you advise that I keep the RC, thetruth?

Hey a Cleric is more powerful than a Rod of Resurrection

Besides Greater Restoration full-heals ALL your party members at once.
But yes they are more useful during SoA than in ToB.

A RC though is much more powerful than a simple Cleric, so it is a difficult choice.

Also, I was frustrated that my Inquisitor's Dispel Magic wasn't so helpful. I guess it was that when I really needed that spell, the target(s) were immune.

Inquisitor's Dispel Magic will work if target doesn't have SI: Abjuration.
And there aren't many enemies with immunity to Dispel Magic.

I also have not found backstab or even high level traps to be very helpful.

Yes most enemies are immune to traps (except Timetraps of course).
Backstab isn't very helpful either since some of the enemies have immunity and /or can see through invisibility (though you can still backstab someone who can see through invisibility and is not immune IIRC).

On my first time through with this party of 4, I often have to reload at least once during the Sikret battles. When facing Firkraag at level 15, I probably had to reload 3 or 4 times.

Reloading at least once/IA battle and 3-4 times for improved Firkraag is not much.

The first game with IA is a new experience and like with other similar mods (Tactics,I.Battles,Ascension) do not expect to win the battles without some reloads

[Sikret]

And there aren't many enemies with immunity to Dispel Magic.

Actually, none of the enemies are immune to dispel magic. But in addition to SI:Abjuration, your dispel magic can also fail for the difference between levels of experience. A 10th level inquistor casts dispel magic at level 20 and it can still fail against high level enemies even if they don't have SI:abjuration.

[Demivrgvs]

In V3 i think S!IMMUNE gave immunity to dispel and remove magic too.
Maybe you've changed it in V4...

Anyway i wanted to play V4 with an Archer since you suggested to play a ranger...why didn't you reccomend the archer?

[rbeverjr]

And there aren't many enemies with immunity to Dispel Magic.

Actually, none of the enemies are immune to dispel magic. But in addition to SI:Abjuration, your dispel magic can also fail for the difference between levels of experience. A 10th level inquistor casts dispel magic at level 20 and it can still fail against high level enemies even if they don't have SI:abjuration.

If you are immune to level 5 spells or lower, then I suppose that makes you immune to this spell, right? Likewise if you are immune to level 9 spells or lower, then you are immune - is this only the demilich? With Spell Immunity: Abjuration, you are immune also - at least temporarily. The improved creatures also usually have layered defenses. Is it worth a level 9 slot for Spell Strike to take them down all at once? Is it worth the time and spells to remove the layered protections in a more conventional manner?

I was somewhat dismayed because in the vanilla game, Keldorn's Dispel Magic almost aways succeeded even from the beginning regardless of his opponent. His Dispel Magic seemed much less reliable in Improved Anvil, which makes me less a fan of this class for this mod compared to the overpowered classes (for the unmodified game) of the fighter-mages, mages, ranger-clerics, etc.

-----------------

Hiya thetruth: rather than PM'ing you, I'll ask here because other people may be interested in your answer. I'm trying to keep to a party of 4. I realize that a cleric can always be useful to a party, regardless of his type: berserker>cleric, ranger>cleric, ranger-cleric, etc. What I am wondering is if some other class may be more helpful in a party of 4 for ToB in Improved Anvil V3. With your experience, do you think that the morituri, sorcerer, FMT, and RC ....OR..... the morituri, sorcerer, swashbuckler, and kensai 13>mage would be the easier win? (Note: I also have the XP cap removed and the Improved Battles of Ascension except the final battle and the battles that Sikret has already improved.)

This post has been edited by rbeverjr: Mar 9 2007, 02:59 PM

[thetruth]

@ Demivrgvs

Anyway i wanted to play V4 with an Archer since you suggested to play a ranger...why didn't you reccomend the archer?

Sikret will answer this, but IMO an Archer is less effective in IA because many enemies are immune to missile dmg, especially Golems .






@ rbeverjr

Hiya thetruth: rather than PM'ing you, I'll ask here because other people may be interested in your answer. I'm trying to keep to a party of 4. I realize that a cleric can always be useful to a party, regardless of his type: berserker>cleric, ranger>cleric, ranger-cleric, etc. What I am wondering is if some other class may be more helpful in a party of 4 for ToB in Improved Anvil V3. With your experience, do you think that the morituri, sorcerer, FMT, and RC ....OR..... the morituri, sorcerer, swashbuckler, and kensai 13>mage would be the easier win? (Note: I also have the XP cap removed and the Improved Battles of Ascension except the final battle and the battles that Sikret has already improved.)

Hmm difficult choice, but I would go with the first one (Morituri,Sorcerer,FMT,R/C).

But if I wanted the most powerful party using the classes you mentioned above I would go with:

1) Morituri
2) Swashbuckler
3) R/C (multi)
4) Berserker-Mage (13-28)


- R/C multi is MUCH better than dual because of THACO and HLAs.

- Berserker-Mage is better than the "traditional" Kensai-Mage IMO.
You can look here why I think this.
Add on top of that the fact that a Kensai cannot wear the Robe of Vecna in IA

Also both are more powerful/useful than a Sorcerer IMO in IA because of fighter's abilities.

EDIT: But of course with a Berserker-Mage you will not have a Mage early in your party so maybe it would be better to prefer the Sorcerer.
Still you can do the first quests without a Mage (waiting the B-M to activate his Mage class), but the choice is yours.




This post has been edited by thetruth: Mar 9 2007, 04:07 PM

[rbeverjr]

You're probably right concerning the berserker 13>mage vs kensai 13>mage in parties of 4 or less. In small parties, you can probably share around uber equipment to give the berserker the edge. I am concerned that neither will be able to hit anything with the Staff of Magi unless in Tensers.

If the Kensai>mage can't wear the Robe, he wouldn't be considered regardless if he was going to be the sole party mage!

I'm really talking about ToB anyway; so, I'm not concerned about time dualing. If I cared, I would just have a party of 5 in SoA until the dual took place.

I really LOVE sorcerers. I particularly like the versatility of choosing whichever L9 spell or HLA spell I need to cast at the moment. Nevertheless, I will carefully consider your advice. If I was going to go that route, I would also consider hacking a fighter 13>wild mage.

This post has been edited by rbeverjr: Mar 9 2007, 04:28 PM

[Mordokai]

Sikret will answer this, but IMO an Archer is less effective in IA because many enemies are immune to missile dmg, especially Golems

Just a short reply to this, then I'm off to my workout for the night. I'll post longer reply tommorow, whn I wake up.

While what you say is true(and I lost many a nerves over the 100% missile damage resistance), archer is still a powerful kit, and can easily match himself with other ranger kits. I tested the game with it(Sikret, bear with me, you'll get a pm soon enought where I tell you why I stopped), and I believe that it is still a powerful kit. It can kill dragons in a matter of seconds if you have somoeno distracting them(and you will have them, trust me), and many mages were killed solely by him, while distracted by summons. So yes, archer is still a kit worth taking. Imo, that is.

Feel free to prove me otherwise if you feel like it. I'm open for a debate.

[thetruth]

Feel free to prove me otherwise if you feel like it. I'm open for a debate.

Heh no need for debate on the Archer kit. I am well aware of his power

In fact when Sikret asked me to choose a Ranger for testing IA I wanted to take an Archer.But since I didn't know IA's content I decided to take a Stalker instead.

And archers are not only effective against Dragon and Mages.
Potentially they can kill in a few seconds even the most powerful enemy in the game:

Tuigan's bow + I.Haste + Called Shot = STR draining death
(Sim from Vhailor's helm for enemies with more than 19 STR)

Almost noone is immune to stats drain in the original or modded BGII.
Fortunately IA is an exception.

That said though the fact that some of the most powerful enemies of IA are immune to Missile dmg is sthg to consider before you choose an Archer as your main character.

[Sikret]

And there aren't many enemies with immunity to Dispel Magic.

Actually, none of the enemies are immune to dispel magic. But in addition to SI:Abjuration, your dispel magic can also fail for the difference between levels of experience. A 10th level inquistor casts dispel magic at level 20 and it can still fail against high level enemies even if they don't have SI:abjuration.

If you are immune to level 5 spells or lower, then I suppose that makes you immune to this spell, right?

No, immunity to 5th level (or lower) spells will not include immunity yo dispel magic. (just like globe of invulnerability which doesn't make you immune to dispel magic. Even though the globe itself is not affected by dispel magic, it will not protect your other dispellable effects.)

[Sikret]

In V3 i think S!IMMUNE gave immunity to dispel and remove magic too.
Maybe you've changed it in V4...

S!immune.itm is nerfed in v4, but even in v3 it didn't give immunity to dipel magic.

[nataben1314]

So if both backstab and archery aren't very effective in IAv4, what sort of ranger would be recommended? I mean stalker is mainly good for backstab, archer obviously for archery, and beastmaster just sucks! Provided that I don't really do dualclass, does that mean that R/C is really the most sensible choice for a protagonist?

[thetruth]

So if both backstab and archery aren't very effective in IAv4, what sort of ranger would be recommended? I mean stalker is mainly good for backstab, archer obviously for archery, and beastmaster just sucks! Provided that I don't really do dualclass, does that mean that R/C is really the most sensible choice for a protagonist?

Yes. R/C is without doubt the most powerful from the Ranger classes.

Though the Stalker and the Archer are not useless. Their special abilities are less effective against the most powerful enemies but they are still very useful in a party.

Even the pure Ranger is not a bad choice.
That Armor of Faith + Hardiness + Defender of Eastheaven make him a good tank, better than a Fighter class f.e..

[leonidas]

May as well ask this here. Do triple class characters get access to the new mage stronghold content?

[Sikret]

Hi, leonidas!

Welcome to BWL!

May as well ask this here. Do triple class characters get access to the new mage stronghold content?

Yes. Moreover, F/M/Cs may also find a particular item which cannot be used by any other class.



@nataben

Backstab still works against a good number of enemies. Stalker is still a great choice.

[Shaitan]

Just a little question to wich I guess the answer would be Yes:

Having a powerful Berserker in the party is also a very brilliant idea (for the enrage ability); since Korgan is evil and will leave your party when you reach a high reputation (and you need high reputation to see some of the new quests); so if you want a berserker, I may recommend starting a multi-player game and making a custom Berserker, though note that the berserker should not be your protagonist if you want to see more new content in the game (see above).

The question: Will the mod Berserker Minsc found at SP be ok for this?

Regards