Ovewrite/patching Options

[Andyr]

Are the changes made in this mod file direct copy overwrites, or are they done by patching?

[aigleborgne]

Changes are made by overwritting.

I have difficulties to program my changes with weidu code.

Spells : my spells come from different sources:
- BG2 (because tutu use BG1 spells, and it's not corrected by anything)
- BG2 Fixpack
- BG2 mod : Atraits and Detactable spells
- My own mod, including some fixing in previous spells

So it's easier to overwrite them instead of patching.

NPC & monsters : there are so many changes it would be a nightmare to make a patch!

Stores : patching is possible and will be done later when I have time

Items : only minor changes in some items. patching is possible

IDS : patching

So, to resume:
it's possible to patch stores, items, and ids.
But for creatures and spells, it would be a tedious work.

I have already a lot of work involved into the modding part. I won't make all these patching stuff (only for stores, items, and ids), but if someone is insteresting in doing it, contact me

This post has been edited by aigleborgne: Dec 19 2005, 12:38 PM

[NiGHTMARE]

You should probably include a warning about the .cre overwriting in the readme, since it'll mean Enhanced Creatures will need to be installed before other WeiDU mods (otherwise there's a good chance EC will cause them to not work properly).

BTW once you get the knack of it, patching .cre's is pretty easy, plus you can write the code in almost the same time it would take to alter the .cre in a utility .

This post has been edited by NiGHTMARE: Dec 21 2005, 12:18 PM

[Salk]

NiGHTMARE,

thanks for the tip!
We won't miss adding this in the readme file once we make a Beta launch...

[aigleborgne]

Patching cre is not easy.

You probably think this mod only make things a little better by correcting "easy" things like Thac0, AC (set to 10), saving throw (according to level & class)...
But in fact, most of the .Cre have been reviewed with lots of attention. Same thing for monsters.

The changes are quite unique and depends on many factors. Of course, it should be possible to write a patch for each cre. But I would take a long time to do so.

The best thing is to install this mod just after tutufix or tututweak. Then, install other mods.

[Salk]

aigleborgne,

there won't be any problem because this Mod will be installed if this Mod will be installed just after TuTufix...

In the future, if everything goes like it should we should have something like this:

Installation Order:

Tales of the Sword Coast
Official patch
BG1 Fixpack (from Idobek/G3)

Throne of Bhaal
Official patch
BG2 Fixpack (G3)
TuTu 6 (Final)
(TuTu Fixpack)
Enchanced Creatures
ALL OTHER WeiDU Mods (appending)

What I think though is that TuTu Tweaks should be installed by the end of the list so Enhanced Creatures and TuTu Tweaks will sit distant from each other...

[NiGHTMARE]

Patching cre is not easy.

You probably think this mod only make things a little better by correcting "easy" things like Thac0, AC (set to 10), saving throw (according to level & class)...
But in fact, most of the .Cre have been reviewed with lots of attention. Same thing for monsters.

It's easy once you've left the learning stage, and have figured out what can and can't be done, how to do everything you want to do, etc .

I personally have already revamped several BG2 creatures and am working on more (these include all the dragons, the various types of kuo-toa (including a couple of new ones), and Drizzt & co.), and my changes are pretty extensive too: altering, replacing, adding and removing spells, innate abilities and items; altered weapon damage; and even complete script rewrites.

This post has been edited by NiGHTMARE: Dec 21 2005, 05:52 PM

[aigleborgne]

Assuming I would do this with a script and because changes would require a different script for each cre (adaptation of a modele), this would require about 700 scripts.

It's doable, but requires a lot of work.
Just to be comfortable with weidu programming, it would require some days.

The most important thing is the mod by itself.
It's already in WEIDU package, with patching for the most important thing.

Few mods actually modify creatures (except specifically mods like mine, but those shouldn't be installed together anyway). So it's not a real problem.

It's more something better to have (patching), and I fully agree. But i'm not ready to redo all thing I have already done in patching scripts.

Later... one day... maybe

[NiGHTMARE]

Assuming I would do this with a script and because changes would require a different script for each cre (adaptation of a modele), this would require about 700 scripts.

True, but then again at the moment it requires about 700 .cre files .

Few mods actually modify creatures (except specifically mods like mine, but those shouldn't be installed together anyway). So it's not a real problem.

Don't forget that a change made to an existing creature by another mod could be something as simple as giving them a new item. If this item is a key, obviously overwriting the creature would mean it no longer has said key, which would in turn mean the door or container it unlocks could no longer be opened.

Alternatively, the new item could be part of a dialogue condition, meaning f.ex you could never retrieve the item a quest giver asks you to bring him.

Or it could just be some cool new armor or weapon someone made .

But yeah, as long as other mods are installed after Enchanced Creatures, there shouldn't be a problem . Off the top of my head, the BG1NPC Project probably makes at least a few creature changes, and I suspect the forthcoming BG1 Quest Pack probably will too.

This post has been edited by NiGHTMARE: Dec 21 2005, 07:06 PM

[Baronius]

Advice (to all modders): compatibility is important (only) as long as your mod's real purpose remains intact. If the price of compatibility (patching) is the risk that the mod's main point might be harmed in certain cases, stay with traditional overwriting. If your mod is a good mod, players will prefer it to certain other mods if it collides with some other mods. To sum up, don't let your main concept modified just for compatibility reasons.

I'm speaking generally, and not about Enhanced Creatures. I'm sure aigleborne pays enough attention to the importance of what I've written above.

[CamDawg]

I couldn't disagree more. Start learning new and better ways to do things, and don't stop. Especially when those skills lead directly to better mods--from a maintainability standpoint, from a seamlessness standpoint, and (most importantly) from a player's convenience and experience standpoint.

Especially given that thousands of lines of well-commented code for patching are available in the G3 Dev Wiki. There are over 4000 lines of creature patching code in just the Fixpack that cover every way you could possibly want to modify a creature.

Overwrites will save you time for the first release, but you'll waste so much more in updates.

[NiGHTMARE]

If the price of compatibility (patching) is the risk that the mod's main point might be harmed in certain cases, stay with traditional overwriting.

Are you suggesting there are things you can do with overwriting which you can't with patching? I'm certainly not aware of any . In fact, if you have enough patience, you can even use WeiDU to create new items, creatures, spells, etc from scratch .

This post has been edited by NiGHTMARE: Dec 21 2005, 09:28 PM

[Andyr]

If your modification does something bad like crash the game, then byte-patching has another advantage: your tp2 tells you exactly what you changed, so you know where to begin looking.

I have found the potential for error creeps in quite often if I try file overwrites-perhaps I changed some value and forgot about it, or accidentally edited something I didn't mean to, and either didn't spot my error or forgot what the original was. Byte patching avoids these issues.

[aigleborgne]

Ok, I will try to make to mod a cre with patching tomorrow.
I will then see if it worths it or not.

I'm pretty sure it would be quicker by patching but I think I will take time to learn how to handle this.
It isn't the language by itself (I'm a programmer), it's more the format of cre, understand the offset of each value, and many little things.


About spells, patching would be more difficult since BG1 and BG2 spells are very different. Any ideas here?

[NiGHTMARE]

The number one resource for such things is IESDP, particularly the Infinity Engine File Formats section. Near Infinity is a great tool for checking offsets.

BG1 and BG2 both use the same .spl file format (in fact, I believe IWD2 is the only IE game which uses a different .spl format), it's only some of the effects and properties which have been changed; the order and number of fields remain unchanged. BG2 does introduce many new effects, but since Enhanced Creatures is for Tutu, that means you have full access to BG2's additions .

This post has been edited by NiGHTMARE: Dec 21 2005, 11:57 PM

[Ascension64]

PM'ed aigleborgne. Since everyone else seems to be too busy with their mods, real life, and whatever to help out, I am putting up my hand to assist in the task, despite all my mods, real life, and whatever.

[Andyr]

Near Infinity is really good for offsets. And remember WeiDU has constants for some of them so you don't have to remember the offsets: check http://www.weidu.org/WeiDU/README-WeiDU.html#htoc38 for the list. Useful if you want to change scripts, or whatnot.

[Salk]

I thank you all guys for your help (especially Ascension64 for offering direct help in the matter) and I am sure that aigleborgne will work to make his Mod append and no longer overwrite if possible, as we would not want any compatibility issues.

I have a question though...I know nothing about modding so perhaps it sounds stupid. If I understood well, appending makes so that the new modifications brought will coexist with the older ones to preserve former changes done to a specific file.

But what happens if both mods change the same parameter ? Thanks!

[aigleborgne]

If both mod change the same parameter, the last installed mod will overwrite the parameter. pretty obvious no?

[Ascension64]

Well, hopefully the 'source parameter' and the 'overwriting parameter', isn't, say, adding a spell, and changing an item name, respectively. If the 'overwriting parameter' does not read offsets and byte-patches the item, then it will clearly miss (due to changed offsets by adding a spell) and corrupt the item file.

For example, if I decide to add the spell 'Globe of Invulnerability' to a creature, than another mod decides to change that creature's 'Staffspear+3' to a normal 'Staff', then the second mod must ensure that they don't just WRITE_ASCII 0x3f0 ~STAF01~ #8. Not that that will ever happen, I hope.