Spell Caps Options

[Galactygon]

As far as I know, I am undecided whether or not to cap the non-damage spells. In AD&D, damage effects are capped, but non-damage effects (such as range, duration, etc.) aren't. However, there is a chance in BG2, there will be balance issues if I implement the no-cap part.

Unlike the cheese-50 mod (err... the spell-50 mod), there will be no serious balance issues, where skulltrap does five times as much damage as delayed-blast fireball.

-Galactygon

EDIT: The question isn't clear enough. Answering a 'yes' means durations, ranges, etc. (except for damage) will be capped at level 40 rather than a lower level (ie. level 20). Answering a 'no' will indicate the cap remains at level 20 for everything. If you feel you chose the wrong poll choice, please indicate.

This post has been edited by Galactygon: Aug 11 2004, 08:37 PM

[Andyr]

Capping at twenty is plenty.

[Echon]

While some damage spells come with a cap (e.g. Fireball, Lightning Bolt), others do not (e.g. Flame Arrow) and at 40th level, that one becomes seriously powerful. Some might argue that since the description mentions no cap, it should not have one. However, remember that when most spells were created (those in Player's Handbook), the maximum level was 20th, and therefore I think it is a good idea to cap all spells at 20th level. Personally I might have chosen to allow durations to increase but I think it is better to include that one too for consistency.

-Echon

This post has been edited by Echon: Aug 11 2004, 09:49 PM

[Ragnar]

Level 20 seems fair enough to me

[Nerik]

My personal preference would be for a spell level cap roughly proportional to the level of the spell, if this could be made compatable with the existing values. Higher level spells should have a higher cap, partially to avoid the Chain Lighting problem.

I'd give an absalute maximum of say 30th level for level 10 spells (if relevant), 25th level for 9th level spells (gieves 7 levels of advancement between getting them and getting capped), and 20th or less for 8th level and lower.

Charles

[jastey]

Hi!
I find Neriks idea very useful, so I voted "other".
jastey

[Galactygon]

After much delibiration, I have made my decision.

Damage caps will remain the same, unless stated otherwise.

Duration caps, however, will change. Here is a summary of those changes.
1.) Spells of levels 1-3 will have a cap of level 10 unless stated otherwise.
2.) Spells of levels 4-6 will have a cap of level 20 unless stated otherwise.
3.) Spells of levels 7-9 will have a cap of level 30 unless stated otherwise.
4.) Spells of level 10 will have a cap of level 40 unless stated otherwise.

For some of you, it might seem a little frightening on why you can have such long-lasting effects at extremely high levels, but I am taking measures it is nigh-impossible (for even a solo character) to reach level 25. High level parties by the end of ToB should be at levels 18-22 rather than something above 25.

-Galactygon

[Echon]

I thought you wanted this to be a P&P mod.

-Echon

[Galactygon]

I don't agree with PnP on everything (I am not really a rules-lawyer).

It wouldn't make much of a difference anyway, since you don't reach extremely high levels, and PnP doesn't really cover epic-level gaming in such detail.

-Galactygon

[Echon]

I don't agree with PnP on everything (I am not really a rules-lawyer).

I see. The mod description gave me a different impression, though.

It wouldn't make much of a difference anyway, since you don't reach extremely high levels, and PnP doesn't really cover epic-level gaming in such detail.

P&P details everything up to level 40. 10th-level wizard spells, quest spells and all the other high-level abilities from ToB are based on P&P.

-Echon

[NiGHTMARE]

I think "inspired by" rather than "based on" would be more appropriate in certain instances .

Anyway, the book with most high level stuff is Dungeon Master Option: High-Level Campaigns. It has HLAs, Quest spells, etc.

All the tables in it only go up to 30th level, but you can find THAC0 and spell progression* tables up to 40th level in several other books, including Faiths & Avatars, Powers & Pantheons, Demihuman Deities, and Villains' Lorebook.

* Unfortunately they only provide such tables for priests, wizards and bards; nothing for rangers or paladins.

This post has been edited by NiGHTMARE: May 22 2005, 01:11 PM

[Galactygon]

I see. The mod description gave me a different impression, though.

Everyone is subject to his/her own interpretation.

If what I proposed doesn't really work out in practice very well, I will make adjustments to address the situation.

-Galactygon

[Echon]

Anyway, the book with most high level stuff is Dungeon Master Option: High-Level Campaigns.  It has HLAs, Quest spells, etc.

All the tables in it only go up to 30th level, but you can find THAC0 and spell progression* tables up to 40th level in several other books, including Faiths & Avatars, Powers & Pantheons, Demihuman Deities, and Villains' Lorebook.

Is this directed at me or Galactygon because I own all these books and already know these things.

-Echon

[NiGHTMARE]

Galactygon, and anyone else reading this thread who's interested .

This post has been edited by NiGHTMARE: May 23 2005, 09:39 AM

[Kalindor]

Duration caps, however, will change. Here is a summary of those changes.
1.) Spells of levels 1-3 will have a cap of level 10 unless stated otherwise.
2.) Spells of levels 4-6 will have a cap of level 20 unless stated otherwise.
3.) Spells of levels 7-9 will have a cap of level 30 unless stated otherwise.
4.) Spells of level 10 will have a cap of level 40 unless stated otherwise.

If this is going to be the case, I suggest making a note of the maximum capped spell effects in the spell descriptions for easy comparison. I know you have much else to do for the mod, but I feel that this would alleviate some confusion as to a spell's maximum potential in-game.

This post has been edited by Kalindor: May 29 2005, 07:51 PM

[Galactygon]

After some testing, I have found the following results:

1.) Spells of levels 1-3 that usually have a maximum duration of 10 rounds became quite annoyingly short, so I decided to drop that.
2.) Spells of levels 4-6 worked out nicely.
3.) Spells of levels 7-9 also worked out nicely.
4.) There is practically no difference if level 10 spells are capped at level 30 or 40; combat rarely lasts for more than 4 turns, and most parties are bound to rest after almost every fight.

So I decided to create the following modifications:
1.) Wizard spells of levels 1-6 will have their cap at level 20 unless stated otherwise.
2.) Wizard spells of levels 7-10 will have their cap at level 30 unless stated otherwise.
3.) Priest spells of levels 1-5 will have a cap at level 20 unless stated otherwise.
4.) Priest spells of levels 6-8 will have a cap at level 30 unless stated otherwise.

If the above duration caps work out well in the game, they will become final.

-Galactygon

[drake127]

I prefer 20th level cap for everything but I came too late

[Galactygon]

It will not make a really significant difference, since reaching level 20 would be quite a task (even with the ToB portion of the game).

-Galactygon

[quinlan]

My personal preference would be for a spell level cap roughly proportional to the level of the spell, if this could be made compatable with the existing values. Higher level spells should have a higher cap, partially to avoid the Chain Lighting problem.

I'd give an absalute maximum of say 30th level for level 10 spells (if relevant), 25th level for 9th level spells (gieves 7 levels of advancement between getting them and getting capped), and 20th or less for 8th level and lower.

Charles

In terms of modding i am a nobody and a probably a nobody i will remain, for i luck the powerful urge that must be driving you people (ie: all modders). However, i consider my self a dedicated role player in live PnP role play and through the years of playing i have formulated my personal opinion:

I absolutely disagree with propositions concerning caps. When TSR first made the rules, the ultra-high levels that can be achieved by BG2+TOB where not included in their calculations. The system worked fine for up to 20th level. Go above that and you are right that things get out of hand. This is a limitation of the rules. But you don't resolve a limitation by implementing another one, as a cap is to my opinion. The spell to my opinion is like a door or window. It is a mortal construct devised as a way to use the magical energies that encompass all existence. A cap is a nonsensical limitation because it cannot be explained. The experience of the spellcaster and his constitution or some other personal limitation should determine the limit of how far he can open the door and how much magical energy he can use for his spells. This or some other suggestion along reasonable pathways should be worked out. By reasonable i mean in-game reasonable. To simply put a cap such as has been put by BG and as you also suggest, is hiding the inherent problem of the rules under the rug and not solving it.