Powerful mage and game rules, [Topic spllit by Baronius] Options

[Jab]

Great mod! Perfect intro, graphic etc. Perhaps finest quest I've ever seen.

But...

It's trully a shame, that battle with Ustrain is so insane. With Pierce Magic, Time Stop, Breach and 2x lower resistances from Spell Trigger, Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting, Time Stop, 3x Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting and another 3x Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting from Chain Contingency I did not even injure him. Needless to say, that my warriors with Greater Whirlwind Attacks, Improved Haste, Righteous Magic, Stone Skins etc. were also absolutely useless (because of his basic weapon resistences and hardiness HLA).

P.S. As I can see through DLTCEP, he has even "protection from magic resistance modifier" and even protection from lower resistances spell, Miscast Magic Spell and Insect Plague Spell . I'm sorry, but this is just a cheat. :-/

So he is immune to elements and nearly immune to weapons (95% with hardiness) and has high resistances to magic (and additionaly immune to many spells). Fortunately, there are astonishing 35 000 xp for him. That really helped (after 20 minutes of battle and 6 breach spells).

This post has been edited by Jab: Jul 17 2009, 01:47 PM

[Sikret]

With this approach, all of the bone golems, magic golems and demi liches will end up being cheaters even in the core AD&D. But this is not a correct approach to the issue. When you see a creature with certain immunties, you should think of those immunties as part of the creature's definition (rather than calling it a "cheat") and start an honest attempt to find a successful tactics (rather than looking the creature's file in DLTCEP to discover what a true tactician can discover inside the game and during the battle). All that said, Ustrain is not actually too difficult if TOD is played without IA installed. It just requires a bit thinking and trying to beat him.

[Jab]

Sikret: Trying to remove his magic resistances is perfectly "tactical" decision. "Protection from magic resistance modifier" (etc.) is... what? (And that why I looked in DLTCEP - I didnt know, why the spell failed) I'm not against normal immunities and resistances. But when a creature is even immune against spells to lower these resistances?
The battle was very long because I could only wait until he depleted all his hardiness (etc.) spells. And that was a very long time (and I even had - and casted - six breach spells).

Well, but I think, that just a warning in readme would be ok (that it's a component on a level of "Tactics" mod from weidu.org). It was just a real suprise, that in "normal" game I met an opponent like this one. And I must say, that normaly i do not enjoy battles like this one. Even though I once finished the game with "tactic" mods.

As I said. Nothing against an opponent like this one. But I would really apreciate "a warning". Difficulty of ToD is really ok (normal). That's why this component doesn't fit. I do not long for the title of "true tactician". ;-)

This post has been edited by Jab: Jul 17 2009, 09:07 PM

[Sikret]

Ustrain has only 50% resistance to magic damage. His magic resistance is also not more than 60%. It's true that he is immune to lower magic resistance, but the 60% MR is not that high even if you can't lower it. Harm spell is your friend in this battle. As soon as it bypasses his MR, Ustrain is dead meat. This is an example of finding the right tactics.

Even if you don't have access to "Harm" spell, there are many other spells which inflict magic damage and using those spells correctly will lead to victory without any problems. With his 60% magic resistance, almost half of your spells will affect him and since he doesn't have more than 50% resistance to magic damage, he will take a lot of damage if you know which spells to use. I didn't want to spoil the fun of finding the right tactics to you, but you insisted on your point ...

As I said, there are many creatures even in the vanilla game and core AD&D with similar (and even more) immunties. Immunty to Lower magic resistance exists even in the core AD&D and vanilla BG2 for some creatures; so, I don't understand why you are so surprised with it. You don't even need to lower his magic resistance to win the battle. Physical attack is not the right approach in this battle either. Just cast spells which inflict magic damage (Harm, ADHW, etc). It's true that trying to remove an opponent's magic resistance is a "tactical" decision, but it's only one of the many tactical choices you have. When one tactical option doesn't work, you should try to find other tactics.

[Jab]

Hey,

Thank you for your advice. But as I said I tried 7x Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting with no effect (in one fight, but I tried it multiple times). Perhaps I was just really unlucky or I don't know. Still it was a powerful magic "blow" with no results. And that is not good. I didn't try the harm spell (but i guess i have it). Btw is it possible, that magic resistance and resistance to magic damage were "cooperating" (while playing monk I had that impresion, that they did), so that I had to pass through both of them?

Again, it's not an issue. I already killed him with the "long tactic". But I really think, that there should be a warning in readme (how hard the Ustrain component is). Just because there are some players (me), who are really not enjoying finding the right tactic. ;-)

This post has been edited by Jab: Jul 18 2009, 12:13 AM

[Raven]

Btw is it possible, that magic resistance and resistance to magic damage were "cooperating" (while playing monk I had that impresion, that they did), so that I had to pass through both of them?

Magic Resistance and resistance to magic damage work differently. Magic Resistance is a flat chance of a spell failing to suceed. There is not an in-between, the spell either gets through the magic resistance (and has its full effect) or doesn't.

Resistance to magic damage represents the fraction of magic damage that the creature will ignore. Every single effect that deals magic damage will be affected by this resistance, so if a creature is hit by a Magic Missile that would normally deal 4 damage and it has 50% resistance to magic damage then it will only take 2.

So, to some extent, the resistances *do* cooperate, but it doesn't work by adding the two numbers together or anything like that, if you see what I mean.

You said that you cast 7 ADHW spells with no effect. Perhaps part of the problem was that you had three in a Chain Contingency. Chain Contingencies aren't fully reliable at unleashing their spells properly - sometimes you just get two working rather than all three.

[Jab]

So, to some extent, the resistances *do* cooperate, but it doesn't work by adding the two numbers together or anything like that, if you see what I mean.

JJ. I should have known that. Shame on me. Still, he has around 150 hp. So the Harm spell seems like an optional solution.

[that guy with...]

I just finished the initially tough battle against Ustrain; I found out that timestop along with Slayer form's melee cold-damage(?) attack took him out very quickly though heh. I dunno if maybe I have another mod which allows the Slayer form to upgrade over time and become overpowered though, but anyway.
I was wondering if Ustrain's spellbook is supposed to do anything now? It still says no-one in the party is powerful enough yet to unlock it, are there any special requirements to use the book or is it meant to stay as it is after the battle (my guy is a 22 sorcerer/18 int)?

[Valiant]

Quest about the book will be added in the future. Till now it´s just a cosmetic item, nothing more.

[ClefairyTorii]

First off I want to say amazing job with the mod. Interesting storyline and flawless compatibility make it one of the greats, thanks!

As for the mage encounter, I agree that nothing should be changed.

I played ADnD 2ndEd for years, and still have all my books to this day. One issue that is stressed repeatedly is, the rules are just guidelines. Ustrain's resistances and powers could be due to a million different reasons, and none of those reasons need to be explained to the players.

All that matters is whether or not the encounter is fun for the players. That being said, I would add is some form of decent loot (at least 1 item), until the followup for the quest is implemented. All that effort, for basically nothing is quite demoralizing, and I would expect most players to just CTRL-Y him and continue on w/ the game.