Suggestions for the coming release Options

[pekkae]

Fantastic!

[SparrowJacek]

Okay, I think I finally managed to make the last entirely new spell work properly, so here it is:

~Spare the Dying
(Necromancy)

Level: 7
Sphere: Healing
Range: 0
Duration: Special
Casting Time: 7
Area of Effect: 15-ft. radius
Saving Throw: None

By casting this spell, the priest strengthens the bond between body and soul of all allies within the spell's range. For the next 5 rounds those allies will be able to withstand one hit, that would normally kill them, leaving them 1 HP left. When that happens, the spell ends, however for the next 10 seconds those allies won't suffer permanent death from normal damage (though, they still might be petrified, imprisoned or frozen solid).~

This spell should be more useful to people playing on Insane, as it should prevent chunking in most situations, however it can also help in case of an unexpected ADHW or Dragon Breath.

[pekkae]

Okay, I think I finally managed to make the last entirely new spell work properly, so here it is:

~Spare the Dying
(Necromancy)

Level: 7
Sphere: Healing
Range: 0
Duration: Special
Casting Time: 7
Area of Effect: 15-ft. radius
Saving Throw: None

By casting this spell, the priest strengthens the bond between body and soul of all allies within the spell's range. For the next 5 rounds those allies will be able to withstand one hit, that would normally kill them, leaving them 1 HP left. When that happens, the spell ends, however for the next 10 seconds those allies won't suffer permanent death from normal damage (though, they still might be petrified, imprisoned or frozen solid).~

This spell should be more useful to people playing on Insane, as it should prevent chunking in most situations, however it can also help in case of an unexpected ADHW or Dragon Breath.

So "Death proof" (?).

Does this work with CC'd ADHW trigger? They count as 3 separate hits, right?

This post has been edited by pekkae: Nov 27 2022, 04:11 PM

[SparrowJacek]

So "Death proof" biggrin.gif (?).

Something like that however it protects only from "hits" which means you need to take damage, stuff like PW:kill should still make the character dead.

Does this work with CC'd ADHW trigger? They count as 3 separate hits, right?

Yup, that's 3 different hits.

This post has been edited by SparrowJacek: Nov 27 2022, 04:16 PM

[pekkae]

a few suggestions, from my notes:

Give Edwin the equivalent item to the "Robe of Eloquence", with a little bit limited minuses compared to the original RoE. It would give the possibility for the player to have a 2nd full mage that has different powers than the primary arcane spellcaster (who has most likely Vecna/MotA + max casting time bonuses). Since Edwin doesn't get RvE, can't wear AoP nor can he cast Foreknowledge, he's stuck without casting time bonuses. The ability to have constant aura clensing would make him unique and a different caster than the Necromancers / Sorcerer's in the game. Also, without casting time bonuses the constant aura clensing wouldn't be OP. It would be very powerful without being completely different. Me thinks.(And tweak blessings for Edwin).

The C/M is one of my favorite characters in the vanilla game. I would love a Kit that makes the C/M a viable choice in the game. Ideally a character that should be effective spellcaster and would have usability in combat as well would be awesome. Drawbacks could include things like not being able to cast some very common beneficial divine spells and some very common high level arcane spells. That together with minuses in stats and as I proposed previously. Also I think there's a lot of unused potential in the magical weapons spells (Flame Blade, Spiritual Hammer, Phantom Blade + Black Blade of Disaster). One of the drawbacks could be to not be able use anything else than magically created weapons. This would be be yet again something a lot out of the ordinary, a little bit

Make spiritual hammer to be upgradeable until +5, with a few specific alterations like one could fo lightning damage and another one acid damage. Or something like that.

[SparrowJacek]

Give Edwin the equivalent item to the "Robe of Eloquence", with a little bit limited minuses compared to the original RoE. It would give the possibility for the player to have a 2nd full mage that has different powers than the primary arcane spellcaster (who has most likely Vecna/MotA + max casting time bonuses). Since Edwin doesn't get RvE, can't wear AoP nor can he cast Foreknowledge, he's stuck without casting time bonuses. The ability to have constant aura clensing would make him unique and a different caster than the Necromancers / Sorcerer's in the game. Also, without casting time bonuses the constant aura clensing wouldn't be OP. It would be very powerful without being completely different. Me thinks.(And tweak blessings for Edwin).

An interesting and unique idea. Originally I wanted to introduce an improvement for Edwin's amulet, but this is something that should also be considered.


Let me ask you a question guys and girls - what changes to Thieves (apart from Swashbucklers) would you like to see? What could be done to make them useful in IA? What should be the fields in which they excel and what should be their weaknesses?

[pekkae]

A few quite "light" ideas. Not thought through, just concepts .

- Let Rogues have UAI
- Add 3* to dual wielding style for all rogues.
- Improve Assassin's "special" powers per level
* gets poison weapon from the start
*at 12th poison / slow
*at 16th poison / slow / slivers (slivers last for a number of rounds)
*at 20th then poison / slivers / stun
*at 26th poison / stun / slivers / elemental damage (continuous for a number of rounds)
- improve "avoid death", or create "improved avoid death" (doubles amount of hp's, gives immunities similar to berkserking, keeps hp's at 1 or so)
- improve alchemy HLA for rogue, so it creates unique rogue-specific potions
- give rogue scribe scrolls HLA, where scribed scrolls are useful ones (say stoneskins (non dispellable), GOI's, remove magic (can only be cast by a specialist mage or rogue with UAI), PFMW, TT and so on)
- give a HLA to Rogues that is "absolute immunity"

[SparrowJacek]

Thank you for the answer! And what are your thoughts on that part?

What should be the fields in which they excel and what should be their weaknesses?

Things like damage, protections, tankiness, etc

[pekkae]

Thank you for the answer! And what are your thoughts on that part?

What should be the fields in which they excel and what should be their weaknesses?

Things like damage, protections, tankiness, etc

Rogues should sort of fit the "jack of all trades and master of none" - slot (that proverb continues though with "but oftentimes better than a master of one")

Wouldn't those proposed changes make rogues sort of generalists, that they have some uses in combat while having a few special powers? And the ability to cast spells from scrolls is huge (and no-one uses that at the moment).

I mean, with the proposed changes, they could get

-with dual-wielding get 6-8 APR under ih? (decent thac0 with TT as well)
-no additional damage modifiers (well, swashbuckler has that already). good enough I think already.
-can tank in later stages for they can skin up (+ can generate those scrolls)
-they have a few special powers, like the ability to breach Ancient Dragon, even though they are not mages. Their dispel would be really powerful, really earl as well.
-can escape from combat with pfmw / absolute immunity if needed
-assassin has special powers that make real damage
-improved avoid death with berserking like immunities would be unique & very powerful
=> oh and Assasin's should get Thac0 bonus as well as increased backstabbing modifier. This would make their backstabbing very useful against some foes.

Would play completely different than the other classes in the game. Not really anywhere near on par with a fighter while fighting but very versatile and useful still. And in case of the Assasin, the backstabbing should do real damage. No other class has that, so it's very unique I think.

Edit:

For different thief classes:

Assasin's get additional superpowers regarding backstabbing when it hits. So it does real damage and really hurts. The side effect is ofc. that backstabbing is useless against a number of foes.
Bounty Hunter, add a few hit types, instead of "poison weapon", they could have "dispel on hit" -> so it would dispel protections on hit. And perhaps 2 other hit types, maybe "maze" on hit or so?
Shadow Dancer, gets additional bonuses while hiding in shadows and has an effect that helps with reaching "invisibility". Shadow dancer could also get a hla that has SI:Divination (or so).

This post has been edited by pekkae: Apr 8 2023, 06:11 AM

[SparrowJacek]

The ability to cast from scrolls is amazing and allows for many different approaches to some battles, that's for sure. However that flavor comes also from scarcity of the resources. If we allow Thieves to scribe infinite amounts of powerful scrolls, then even if they are the only ones who can use them, it becomes just another buff/prebuff for every fight. Also finding those powerful scrolls on enemies (which usually means you have to find a way to defeat them before they can use those scrolls) or in chests won't really be satisfying. We can increase the amount of some scrolls in some places, most notably in stores, to ensure that people who want to rely heavily on those scrolls do have a possibility to use them, but the scrolls should still be considered consumables.

All other protective abilities should also be justified and preferably not overlap with the ones we have. So if a Thief can cast AI from a scroll, then he doesn't need another ability that works similarly.

Thieves have really been neglected and down powered severely. Do you or anyone else knows some encounter or enemies, that can be beaten significantly easier by having an Assassin that can backstab? I think it's a bit similar with poison abilities/spells... And what about traps?

[pekkae]

The ability to cast from scrolls is amazing and allows for many different approaches to some battles, that's for sure. However that flavor comes also from scarcity of the resources. If we allow Thieves to scribe infinite amounts of powerful scrolls, then even if they are the only ones who can use them, it becomes just another buff/prebuff for every fight. Also finding those powerful scrolls on enemies (which usually means you have to find a way to defeat them before they can use those scrolls) or in chests won't really be satisfying. We can increase the amount of some scrolls in some places, most notably in stores, to ensure that people who want to rely heavily on those scrolls do have a possibility to use them, but the scrolls should still be considered consumables.

I get that. However, I would argue that the Rogue classes are competing against some extremely powerful characters in the game as in Hexxat and the Kensai/Thief dual, which both are uber powerful, if one is playing with a Rogue in the party. And Rogues, if only minor changes are implemented, do not have any superpowers and it would be very difficult to find any grounds for choosing a rogue outside K/T or Hexxat. So powers implemented should be on par with those characters, a difficult balancing act I think. The ability to scribe useful scrolls would be one way. But ofc. a variety of other powers could be implemented to make the Rogue more powerful.

But I just have no idea what they could be, as Rogues should not be that much developed towards fighters (there's the Swashbuckler for that already). So how should the rest of the Rogues classes play to be useful - this is very difficult.

Some other concepts..:

- Could Rogues gain magic resistance? (Bounty Hunter perhaps?)
- how about undispelable SI:Divination(which is named to something else, that would fit the class description I think)
- is there a way of supercharging the "detect illusion" - skill?
- could the rogues gain something like "field of dark magic" as a HLA?
- Could the rogues be granted some of the already removed super powerful mage spells as abilities? Simulacrum, Skull Trap(?) (edit: the shadow dancer seems to have simulacrum-alike ability by default in the vanilla game)
- How about providing a missile weapon that does crushing damage instead of missile damage?
- Or Rogues gaining an ability that brings a plethora of different immunities?
(Edit: there's actually a few nice HLA's here http://avenger981.github.io/doc/doc/rr_cor...lity_revisions)

All other protective abilities should also be justified and preferably not overlap with the ones we have. So if a Thief can cast AI from a scroll, then he doesn't need another ability that works similarly.

Yup.

Thieves have really been neglected and down powered severely. Do you or anyone else knows some encounter or enemies, that can be beaten significantly easier by having an Assassin that can backstab? I think it's a bit similar with poison abilities/spells... And what about traps?

Well ofc the fihts against humans are easier with backstabbing, or at least can be - there's a variety of them through the game. Some notable ones I think are Samia, Shade Lord (I think), Gromnir, all of the Assasin-fights etc...I have no idea about the traps . I think they don't fit IA's concept overall that well.

This post has been edited by pekkae: Apr 9 2023, 05:57 PM

[SparrowJacek]

I get that. However, I would argue that the Rogue classes are competing against some extremely powerful characters in the game as in Hexxat and the Kensai/Thief dual, which both are uber powerful, if one is playing with a Rogue in the party. And Rogues, if only minor changes are implemented, do not have any superpowers and it would be very difficult to find any grounds for choosing a rogue outside K/T or Hexxat. So powers implemented should be on par with those characters, a difficult balancing act I think. The ability to scribe useful scrolls would be one way. But ofc. a variety of other powers could be implemented to make the Rogue more powerful.

The two examples you mentioned are a bit extreme. Hexxat's item has been nerfed to lower that OP-ness a bit and Kensai/Thief probably needs a lot of nurturing in the middle part.

You are definitely right pointing out that the changes done to Thieves need to be far more drastic that what I've done to Clerics to incentivise people to use them. I do have many ideas, most of which have never been used anywhere else, to my knowledge, but bringing them to live is a humongous effort and we will definitely need to focus on other stuff first. Btw, if we implement those changes at some point, then let's say that Thief kits: Assassin, Bounty Hunter and Shadowdancer should become as good of a choice as Swashbuckler (though with different playstyles), but any fight involving 2 or more Thieves will become a real nightmare to players, if all those abilities will become available to the enemies

- Could Rogues gain magic resistance? (Bounty Hunter perhaps?)

Well, they do in fact. We have Resist Magic HLA available to all Thieves + all evil Thieves can equip Human Skin to get 20% MR

- how about undispelable SI:Divination(which is named to something else, that would fit the class description I think)

This definitely sounds like something that Shadowdancer could get at some point.

- is there a way of supercharging the "detect illusion" - skill?

To my knowledge - no. But we have some ideas for a major rework to some other thieving skills.

- could the rogues gain something like "field of dark magic" as a HLA?

What exactly do you mean? I don't remember such skill/spell.

- Could the rogues be granted some of the already removed super powerful mage spells as abilities? Simulacrum, Skull Trap(?) (edit: the shadow dancer seems to have simulacrum-alike ability by default in the vanilla game)

I don't think that Critto touched Shadowdancer at all, so this kit still has stuff that is usually not present in IA, like Simulacrum or Time Stop ability and I don't think it's ever been tested. The kit definitely has some potential that could be explored once we start working on Thieves.

- How about providing a missile weapon that does crushing damage instead of missile damage?

It's been done in IWD2 and such small changes could bring more diversity to the playthrough and party composition for sure. We do have some ideas that could reintroduce ranged weaponry to the game, but sadly we have too many ideas and too little time, so we have to prioritize our tasks.

- Or Rogues gaining an ability that brings a plethora of different immunities?

They'd need to be justified for sure. If you have any ideas, then go ahead When I think of Thieves the first thing that comes to my mind is nimbleness and very high dexterity, so one of the ideas that I have (just an idea, you can tell me what you think of it) is some kind of "Extreme Reflexes" HLA, that would basically grant 2 layers of stone skin per round for 1 turn, the justification is that pushing their senses to the maximum, the Thief can avoid some physical attacks directed at him/her.

(Edit: there's actually a few nice HLA's here http://avenger981.github.io/doc/doc/rr_cor...lity_revisions)

A very good source of inspiration, thank you!

[ed boy]

[New cleric spells]

I really like the flavour of these. How do you feel about making some of them available to paladins as HLAs?

Let me ask you a question guys and girls - what changes to Thieves (apart from Swashbucklers) would you like to see? What could be done to make them useful in IA? What should be the fields in which they excel and what should be their weaknesses?

For me, the unique aspects of the thief are:

• Great at avoiding hits for a short period of time, but bad at protecting allies or tanking. Giving them an ability that gives 100% physical resistance for a round may work, as it will protect them for a brief period and also make the AI targeting logic prioritize other targets instead.
• Good at adapting to the enemy to target their weakness/negate their strengths, bad at tackling generalist enemies. I like the idea of giving them an ability similar to protector rangers that lets them choose one of a subset of enemies to counter.
• Good at fighting in groups, bad at fighting solo. I don't know if it would be possible in the engine, but this could take the form of adding a damage buff (or debuffing enemies) if the thief is standing near an ally.
• Best at battlefield mobility. I don't know how a payoff for battlefield mobility would be set up.
• Strong with ranged weaponry. I know that it is possible to define melee weapons as having a range, but I don't know if it's defined for the whole weapon class or if it can be done at a more granular level, but if the thief can use melee weapons at a short range (kind of like how two-handed weapons have a slightly longer range than one-handed) then it would provide a unique offensive angle.
• Strong against living enemies, bad against undead/golems. It is possible to give bonuses based on the enemy type, but that feels clunky. Given the number of golems in IA, I would be reluctant to give too harsh penalties against golems.
• Good at poisons and debilitating the enemy. Being able to disable an enemy's regeneration would be a good way of implementing this without making other sources of poison damage a problem.

[SparrowJacek]

I really like the flavour of these.

If you like them, then I encourage you to play the new v6.6 if you have enough time for that and please let us know how useful they are, as I am pretty sure (from all other comments that we got) that there's still plenty to improve and rework!

How do you feel about making some of them available to paladins as HLAs?

I wouldn't mind that, their abilities are kinda similar, with Paladins being more melee focused and Clerics casting more spells, so it would make sense. However Paladins are generally usable in IA, not powerful by any means, but they have their place in some party compositions. Especially Keldorn with his new upgraded armor!

Good at adapting to the enemy to target their weakness/negate their strengths, bad at tackling generalist enemies. I like the idea of giving them an ability similar to protector rangers that lets them choose one of a subset of enemies to counter.

In general that's a nice idea, do you have any specific details in mind? We wouldn't like to make it too similar to Protector's prepare ability.

Good at fighting in groups, bad at fighting solo. I don't know if it would be possible in the engine, but this could take the form of adding a damage buff (or debuffing enemies) if the thief is standing near an ally.

Well technically it should be possible, as there are effects that are based on proximity, however I am not sure about the rationale for such buffs/debuffs.

Best at battlefield mobility. I don't know how a payoff for battlefield mobility would be set up.

Well, Thieves and especially Shadowdancers could get some + movement speed when hidden in shadows and I even thought of a skill that would allow them to teleport, when they're hidden (just came up with a potential name for that skill - One with the shadows). But I am not sure if it'd be helpful, or just a flavor ability. Or maybe you mean something else by "battlefield mobility"?

Strong with ranged weaponry.

As you probably know, ranged weapons are currently nerfed heavily in IA and even when we bring them back, we would like to specify only a few kits/classes that would really be able to use them effectively. One of such kits could be Bounty Hunter, but Assassins and Shadowdancers (and Swashies for that matter) seem like more of a close-combat fighters with their abilities.

I don't know if it's defined for the whole weapon class or if it can be done at a more granular level, but if the thief can use melee weapons at a short range (kind of like how two-handed weapons have a slightly longer range than one-handed) then it would provide a unique offensive angle.

Each weapon has its specific range, that unfortunately can't be changed. Creating some weapons with increasing range is how the 6.6v version of Seeking Sword works. If you want, you can even make a IWDII version of Mordenkainen Sword, which creates a sword that can be used for ranged attacks, just like a bow or something, but changing that range through some spells/effects is impossible.

Strong against living enemies, bad against undead/golems. It is possible to give bonuses based on the enemy type, but that feels clunky. Given the number of golems in IA, I would be reluctant to give too harsh penalties against golems.

I am not sure that introducing a class/kit that can't do much to the most powerful and the most frequent enemies in IA is a good idea, though it certainly makes sense, that Thieves and especially Assassins should be deadly against living creatures.

Good at poisons and debilitating the enemy. Being able to disable an enemy's regeneration would be a good way of implementing this without making other sources of poison damage a problem.

This is a brilliant idea! I am not sure how doable it is in Infinity Engine, but your suggestion opened my eyes to some new interesting ideas, that definitely CAN be implemented


In general this is how I see all Thief kits:
1. Swash - very powerful melee combatant, closest to standard Fighter, 2 weapons, high damage and exceptionally high AC, very limited thieving experience
2. Assassin - capable of dealing the highest damage, fast and mobile, but kinda squishy, uses 1 weapon style for maximum effectiveness, focused on hiding in shadows and backstabbing
3. Bounty Hunter - ranged combatant, mainly focused on short bows, throwing weapons and (reworked) traps, lower damage in general, but safer playstyle, focused on traps setting and disarming
4. Shadowdancer - here I have some problems with making him distinct from Assassin, as they both use Hide in Shadows extensively and fight in melee, in general I see Shadowdancer as a bit more "magical" kit, that could have more personal buffs and enemy debuffs, but definitely without things like time stop...

[ed boy]

In general that's a nice idea, do you have any specific details in mind? We wouldn't like to make it too similar to Protector's prepare ability.

It's a bit tricky, as the protector is already negating the unique abilities of a lot of the enemies. Some thoughts:

• Choose a damage type, gain undispellable protection from that type of damage
• Choose a saving throw type, gain an undispellable bonus to those saving throws
• Have one of thief/protector affect themselves and another affect an ally
• Poisons, detailed at the end of this post

Well technically it should be possible, as there are effects that are based on proximity, however I am not sure about the rationale for such buffs/debuffs.

The rationale would come mostly from sneak attack introduced in later editions of dnd - if the enemy is distracted by an ally, it makes them less able to protect themselves from the thief.

Or maybe you mean something else by "battlefield mobility"?

I do mean that, but the problem is giving the player a reason to use those abilities - the resistance to ranged damage coupled with the regeneration that a lot of IA enemies have mean that spending your time moving around instead of attacking is going to cost a lot of damage output. Reworked traps would probably be a great way of doing this, but how to rework traps would probably be its own conversation.

I am not sure that introducing a class/kit that can't do much to the most powerful and the most frequent enemies in IA is a good idea, though it certainly makes sense, that Thieves and especially Assassins should be deadly against living creatures.

I agree. I wouldn't want to give them any explicit penalties against golems, but would prefer giving them bonuses that are less useful against golems. If the blocking of regeneration is possible within the engine, that would be a great solution.

In general this is how I see all Thief kits:
1. Swash - very powerful melee combatant, closest to standard Fighter, 2 weapons, high damage and exceptionally high AC, very limited thieving experience
2. Assassin - capable of dealing the highest damage, fast and mobile, but kinda squishy, uses 1 weapon style for maximum effectiveness, focused on hiding in shadows and backstabbing
3. Bounty Hunter - ranged combatant, mainly focused on short bows, throwing weapons and (reworked) traps, lower damage in general, but safer playstyle, focused on traps setting and disarming
4. Shadowdancer - here I have some problems with making him distinct from Assassin, as they both use Hide in Shadows extensively and fight in melee, in general I see Shadowdancer as a bit more "magical" kit, that could have more personal buffs and enemy debuffs, but definitely without things like time stop...

I mostly agree, my personal interpretations:

• Swashbuckler - Highest APR, highest DPS when not in a backstab/sneak attack situation. Does not have any focus on countering enemy-specific abilities.
• Assassin - Highest damager per hit, lowest APR. Highest DPS when in a backstab/sneak attack situation. Has a focus on countering enemy-specific abilities.
• Bounty Hunter - Lower damage with weapons, but higher damage when traps are factored in. Has a focus on countering enemy-specific abilities. Has scouting abilities (similar to farsight).
• Shadowdancer - Highest evasiveness and survivability. Lower damage with weapons, but provides a lot of party support and buffs/debuffs.

Another potential way to give a thief a bonus that would make them feel unique would be by reworking the poison mechanic - give them abilities that function like the ghoul touch line of spells that on hit apply a saveless penalty to the enemy. Making them saveless would make them a very strong ability, but given the weakness of the rest of the thief it can probably be done in a balanced way. it would also help the thief by giving it a unique attack type that feels very different to the other classes. Some potential examples:

• Spellpiercer poison - On hit, dispel the enemy at a level bonus (similar to the inquisitor)
• Spellplague poison - On hit, give the enemy a penalty of increased casting time on their spells
• Dragonbane poison - On hit, prevent an enemy dragon from using Dragon's Breath or Dragon Fear (with similar poisons for other enemy types)
• Lethargy poison - On hit, slow the enemy
• Shieldshatter poison - On hit, give the enemy a penalty to AC
• Lifesteal poison - On hit, give the enemy a fireshield-like ability that will heal attackers instead of damaging them

[SparrowJacek]

I do mean that, but the problem is giving the player a reason to use those abilities

Such discussions are really stimulating to my brain. I don't want to spoil anything, or give hope for something that won't be doable/balanced, but I think that your suggestions lead me to a very interesting abiility, that could potentially be useful in very creative and strategic ways

Reworked traps would probably be a great way of doing this, but how to rework traps would probably be its own conversation.

If you have any thoughts on that topic that you'd like to share, then feel free to do that! We are still not sure what to do about traps...

Shadowdancer - Highest evasiveness and survivability. Lower damage with weapons, but provides a lot of party support and buffs/debuffs.

If you've read Pekkae's v6.6 journal, then you might be aware of the fact, that nothing beats Swashbucklers in terms of survivability and evasiveness. But that buff/debuff part is almost limitless, as there are so many ways that we can use shadows without making it illogical.

Bounty Hunter - Lower damage with weapons, but higher damage when traps are factored in. Has a focus on countering enemy-specific abilities. Has scouting abilities (similar to farsight)

it would also help the thief by giving it a unique attack type that feels very different to the other classes. Some potential examples:

Even more nice ideas, I am really starting to believe, that Thieves can be brought back to IA and shine once more, plus the abilities of each kit are vastly different, unlike those of Cleric kits.

[ed boy]

Such discussions are really stimulating to my brain. I don't want to spoil anything, or give hope for something that won't be doable/balanced, but I think that your suggestions lead me to a very interesting abiility, that could potentially be useful in very creative and strategic ways

Currently there is a precedent in the game - the spell Agannazar's Scorcher allows you to move to caster to move one end of the ray and "clothesline" enemies in a mob - I'm a big fan of this in BG1, where a wand of fire charge can do 12d6 party friendly damage. If similar abilities could be created, it could be a great way for rogues to leverage mobility and increase damage output in non-attacking ways.

Reworked traps would probably be a great way of doing this, but how to rework traps would probably be its own conversation.

If you have any thoughts on that topic that you'd like to share, then feel free to do that! We are still not sure what to do about traps...

A disclaimer here - Although I have played with thieves in IA, it is only to use them as a multi/dual class to gain access to UAI, so I don't have first hand experience with trying out traps. I am going off the wiki for the effects of the traps, so if they've been changed in IA I won't be aware of it.

Currently in the game, there are three categories of traps:

• Regular thief snares
• Bounty hunter special snares
• HLA traps

Regular thief snares are mostly useless. The main form of damage is missile damage, which any enemy that matters in IA is immune to. At higher levels there is poison/fire damage, which enemies that aren't immune to will heavily resist. The highest level has an insta-slay, but it gives the enemy a save vs death at +4 bonus which means that every threatening enemy will pass (even if they weren't immune to insta death).

Bounty hunter special snares are similar, but with less missile damage and more spell effects. Ironically, the most powerful of the bounty hunter special snares by far is the 1st level one, as that has the biggest save penalty to avoid debuff.

The HLA traps are spike, exploding and time. The time trap is probably impossible to have in the game and be balanced, I fully expect it to get the chopping block. The exploding trap is functionally equivalent to fireball (10d6 fire damage, save for half), and the spike trap is a better version of ADHW (20d6 instead of 20d8, but no save allowed). Unless it's a specific fight that explicitly favours fire damage over magic damage (eg ice golem, chromatic demon) then the spike trap is the only trap worth talking about.

Currently, the best way to use traps is to set five spike traps in the same spot, then lure an enemy into the spot to be splatted by 100d6 magical damage - even for IA enemies, that has a good chance of taking one of them out.

Some ideas on what direction to take traps in the future:

Introduce a restriction on how frequently traps can be triggered. Having a lot of burst damage is a very tricky thing to balance around. If there were a restriction that only one trap per round could be triggered (or maybe that only the first trap each round to trigger does anything) then it would allow for traps to be individually powerful while limiting the burst potential. It would also introduce more strategy around long battles, where the party can retreat from one line of traps to another to get a second wind in a battle.

Make traps inflict saveless debuffs. Similar to the poisoning I suggested in the previous post, I feel that saveless debuffs could be a large part of the thief class identity and give them a unique feeling playstyle. It can also avoid the problems inherent to stacking traps in a single spot - an enemy that is hit by five slow traps is the same as an enemy that is hit by one slow trap.

Make traps area of effect. Imagine traps that don't deal damage, but release clouds of gas. One might release dense smoke, making all creatures in an area partially visible (as if affected by II). Another might release choking gas, making all spellcasting in an area trickier to perform. This could support the battlefield mobility aspect of a thief, and applying buffs/debuffs to all creatures in an area (friend and foe) would introduce more positioning strategy elements.

Make traps buff the party. Imagine a trap of magical necromantic energy - when an enemy sets off the trap their strength is drained, and the party members gain a buff to their own strength.

Make specialized traps. Again going back to the previous poison suggestion, a specialist anti-dragon trap might negate the dragon's breath weapon. A specialist anti-vampire trap might prevent the use of domination abilities.

Introduce a harsher limit on the number of traps that can be set at once. Instead of having five traps set at once, limit it to one or two. Maybe have it increase with the thief level similar to how the backstab multiplier increases.

Improve trap damage. Even if we ignore that missile damage is useless in IA, a trap at levels 1-11 does on average 14 damage. A fighter wielding a morning star with 18/00 STR and two pips of proficiency does on average 13 damage per hit, and will get multiple hits per round. This only gets worse for the traps as levels increase. Increasing the damage or have the damage apply for multiple rounds would help narrow the gap, and changing the damage type would be necessary. At low levels, this may be a bit problematic as five traps hitting at once would be equivalent to multiple rounds of fighter attacks, so this may have to be introduced along with the trap number/frequency restrictions, but I feel that the number of fights that would be ruined by this would be extremely small.

Improve traps with other thieving abilities. Currently thief abilities are useless in combat. Furthermore, BGII starts you with enough skill points and ways to boost them that you don't ever really have a shortage. Imagine if thieves could use their skill at hiding in shadows to set a more effective snare that would take enemies by surprise and deal them more damage (i.e. gain a buff to trap damage for having points in hide in shadows). Alternatively, they might use their magical experience from detect illusion to enhance the effects of a trap that has a magical effect.

As there are a lot of directions we can take the thief in, I suspect that it would be far easier to set aside the task of attempting to balance the existing thief kits and instead create a new thief kit that has abilities on an IA power level.

This post has been edited by ed boy: Apr 18 2023, 11:34 PM

[SparrowJacek]

Thank you for your thoughts. They all revolve around the original way of setting traps, which is - put something on the ground outside of combat (traps can't be used in battle) or better - 5x something, and lure an enemy to that spot. I think that this is extremely restrictive, though your ideas of making traps fire only once per round is a very interesting take on that issue!

Currently thief abilities are useless in combat. Furthermore, BGII starts you with enough skill points and ways to boost them that you don't ever really have a shortage. Imagine if thieves could use their skill at hiding in shadows to set a more effective snare that would take enemies by surprise and deal them more damage (i.e. gain a buff to trap damage for having points in hide in shadows). Alternatively, they might use their magical experience from detect illusion to enhance the effects of a trap that has a magical effect.

Thieving abilities are something that has very limited usage in IA at the moment, but they hold some really amazing potential. Your ideas are very similar to mine in that regard, as what I would like to introduce is an almost complete overhaul of those abilities, so that Thieves become visibly more powerful when they raise them properly. I would also propose that many basic Thief skills, like damage from backstab or traps are dependant on thieving abilities. This has a hidden bonus of making Dexterity more useful and potentially making Halflings player's first race choice when creating a Thief.

Most Thieves should have access to all thieving skills, however some kits should specialize in some specific ones and get special bonuses from them:
Bounty Hunter - Setting and Disarming Traps
Assassin - Hiding in Shadows and Move Silently
Shadowdancer - Hiding in Shadows and Detect Illusions


Okay, I think it's time to introduce my idea for reworked Stealth (it's not implemented, I would just want to know your thoughts on that)

Stealth becomes dependant ONLY on Hide in Shadows (as I have some special plans for Move Silently) and every class/kit that has HiS can try to use Stealth even when enemies are in sight. Though your chance of success are much lower, as every enemy rolls a check to decide if you are noticed, which means that the more enemies are in your line of sight, the harder it is to become invisible during combat. Also if you have more points put in Hide in Shadows, then you can use it more often, something like once every 6s (one round) if your HiS is less than 100, 5s if it's between 100 and 174, 4s if between 175 and 249 and finally 3s if 250 or higher.

I hope Critto will give his approval to these ideas and that we will have enough time to work on that.

[ed boy]

Most Thieves should have access to all thieving skills, however some kits should specialize in some specific ones and get special bonuses from them:
Bounty Hunter - Setting and Disarming Traps
Assassin - Hiding in Shadows and Move Silently
Shadowdancer - Hiding in Shadows and Detect Illusions

I really like the idea of giving kits more clearly defined abilities in skills. I could get behind giving each kit severely reduced flexible skill points but big bonuses in the appropriate skills - for example, an assassin could get only 10 free skill points per level, but start with 50 in HiS and MS, or maybe get a bonus of 5 per level in HiS and MS.

Stealth becomes dependant ONLY on Hide in Shadows (as I have some special plans for Move Silently) and every class/kit that has HiS can try to use Stealth even when enemies are in sight. Though your chance of success are much lower, as every enemy rolls a check to decide if you are noticed, which means that the more enemies are in your line of sight, the harder it is to become invisible during combat. Also if you have more points put in Hide in Shadows, then you can use it more often, something like once every 6s (one round) if your HiS is less than 100, 5s if it's between 100 and 174, 4s if between 175 and 249 and finally 3s if 250 or higher.

My experience with modding is very limited (just what I've picked up by poking around in Near Infinity), but from I've picked up I think the existing mechanics round stealth checks are hardcoded - HIPS can probably be given to all thief kits by using the appropriate SPL, but I think the cooldown is hardcoded.

I don't know how if spl files can change their effect based on thieving abilities, but I rather hope they can, because if not then I don't think there's much we can do to make abilities relevant.

Math around thief points per level:

If a thief were to gain more powerful combat abilities based on their thieving abilities, then the curve should probably be plotted out compared to power spikes in other classes.

If we consider a fighter's weapon proficiencies to want two pips in weapon style and five in the specific weapon category, then they maximize their bonuses for their first weapon at level 9, the second at level 24, and the third at level 39. The closest thief level equivalents are 10, 31 and 40 (though if we were to continue the pattern of 320k XP per level, it would be level 44). When you factor in the fighter APR bonuses, we can consider the fighter to reach maximum damage output in their first weapon at level 13, which is equivalent to thief 15.

There are seven thieving abilities, with total bonus across the abilities ranging from 45 to 85 depending on race. If we assume that a thief starts with maximum DEX for the race, then this turns into 100 (human) to 170 (Halfling), with the highest ability ranging from 25 (Human pick pockets) to 35 (various halfling skills). If we're happy to depart from the original 2e pnp values, there are seven abilities and seven playable races, so this could be balanced out to make each race specialize in a single ability.

If we consider a thief reaching 200 in two skills to be the same as a fighter maxing out a weapon, then we would want to give thieves 20 to 25 points per level to hit their targets around the same time as a fighter.

If we consider a thief reaching 200 in one skill to be the same as a fighter maxing out a weapon, then we would want to give thieves 10-15 points per level, though I would recommend giving them 10 free points per level plus a large staring bonus of 50-100 total points depending on their starting class.

If it is intended for thieves to have a steeper or shallower power per xp curve, then the points per level should be increased or decreased respectively. Alternatively, the maximum payoff for each skill could be decreased or increased respectively.

Potions of master thievery would probably have to be restricted to not stack, or to become a rare potion.

This post has been edited by ed boy: Apr 20 2023, 12:25 AM

[SparrowJacek]

Wow! So much new stuff that is VERY in line with what I had in mind

I really like the idea of giving kits more clearly defined abilities in skills. I could get behind giving each kit severely reduced flexible skill points but big bonuses in the appropriate skills - for example, an assassin could get only 10 free skill points per level, but start with 50 in HiS and MS, or maybe get a bonus of 5 per level in HiS and MS.

Math around thief points per level:

It's much harder to calculate when you'd reach 250 in some skills, as it's heavily dependant on your race/items/preferences when distributing points. Not everyone has to get a power spike at the same time, sometimes it might be a bit more blurred... And ofc the real power spike is usually around the time you get your HLAs!

What is more, there are several (and might be more) items that give you either thieving skills, or dexterity. I am not sure I want to give people a choice of "do I put additional 50 points in X now, or do I wait till chapter 6 to forge an item for that", so I think that all Thief items that revolve around those will be available pre-Spellhold. Later in chapter 6 you will be able to upgrade them some more to get other bonuses.

And one more thing - I am very excited about such passive changes, as they should positively impact the balance and give some new possibilities. For example your multiclass Thief won't be getting enough points to be as powerful as a single class Thief, but will naturally also benefit from its other class. Also, if you will really want to, you might even be able to make your Stalker more useful, if you stack him with all items that raise HiS/MS.

Potions of master thievery would probably have to be restricted to not stack, or to become a rare potion.

Another good point, there will be many things that we'll have to take into account to at least try to properly balance this class.

My experience with modding is very limited (just what I've picked up by poking around in Near Infinity), but from I've picked up I think the existing mechanics round stealth checks are hardcoded - HIPS can probably be given to all thief kits by using the appropriate SPL, but I think the cooldown is hardcoded.

I don't know how if spl files can change their effect based on thieving abilities, but I rather hope they can, because if not then I don't think there's much we can do to make abilities relevant

Hide in Plain Sight is not something you can give to any class. The game checks it internally and it looks at hexadecimal value of your kit, if it's equal to Shadowdancer, then you can hide, otherwise you can't.

I struggled with those limitations that you pointed for years, trying to balance Thieves around them. But there's not much that we can do, which leads me to the biggest and probably the most controversial change, which sadly reduces quality of life a bit... Reworked Stealth will be a separate ability, that tries to mimic original Stealth in many ways, but can do much more. Stealth button will probably become useless (clicking the button won't have any effect) but will still be greyed out when you can't use Stealth.

This post has been edited by SparrowJacek: Apr 20 2023, 05:56 AM