Suggestions for the coming release Options

[lappen]

really good ideas i think

[pekkae]

I feel that a major problem with clerics is that things they should be best at are done better by other classes. For instance, buffing is traditionally part of the Cleric class identity, but the best buff spells in the game are all arcane.

Adding spells to make clerics stronger is tricky - mage spells can be gated by limited scroll availability whereas cleric spells cannot. Unless there is a way to add cleric spells known by script, this makes giving late game cleric spells tricky without upsetting early to mid game balance.

The availability of Alacrity for Auramasters is a large part of what makes them outshine clerics so much. I would be hesitant to straight up give it to clerics without any hoops to jump through, but I feel like they need access to it to some degree (I also feel like it shouldn't be so easily given to Auramasters or Mages, but that's probably a separate conversation).

Some things that could be done to give cleric a better class identity and give a reason to include a cleric over something like a druid:

• Change Giant Strength (any maybe other buff spells) from a mage spell to a cleric spell
• Add a self-buff that increases APR (similar to Boon of Lathander, but not limited to a kit)
• New, stronger anti-undead or anti-outsider spells that are unique to clerics
• Cleric-unique ways of debuffing an enemy's elemental damage weakness (setting to exactly 90% resistance would open up a lot of strategies without opening up abuse by being stackable)
• Cleric-unique ways of buffing party members (eg +10% resistance to a damage type)
• New cleric ability/buff: Upon striking an enemy, gain alacrity and/or improved casting speed for 3 seconds
• New wish/RVE style spell with weaker initial choices, but more powerful options being unlocked as the game progresses/major enemies are defeated
• Pitre-style spells/abilities where other party members are protected but the cleric is made vulnerable and prioritized by enemies

I'm not suggesting all of these, but I feel that some combination of them could be used to give clerics a power level similar to other classes without making them feel too similar to the other classes.

Completely agree. The Cleric seems to sort of left behind and it's not even an optimal healer as druids & necro are much more adept at it than a Cleric.

I don't think there's need to make new anti-outsider / anti-undead spells, as cleric has a number of cleric specific spells - should be quite easy to rebalance them so that they work in ia + work against the new undead introduced by IA? (Though I know absolutely 0 about modding).

A few other ideas;

The Boon of Lathander is nice. It's also quite easy to make an early game powerhouse with it, if it would stack (like in vanilla bg2). As you could reach (without haste / ih) 3 APR's after level 10 with it (assuming you get it every 10 levels). That together with fast level progression and combined with a bonus of casting as few levels higher than the actual levels would mean great APR's, great Thac0 (though buffs) early game. Also great dispelling ability later on.

I really like the idea of debuffing elemental resistances as that would be unique to a cleric and quite useful.

Another idea would be t give cleric a HLA with long-lasting regen (undispellable). This would be a good addition.

I don't know how a cleric could protect itself in combat though as it only has nice AC. Perhaps reworking sanctuary-spell could be something useful?

[lappen]

perhaps clerics would be better healer if their healing spells would be cast faster

[lroumen]

Sanctuary is 10 rounds of uncontested summoning and buffing. I am not sure what else it needs outside of it not breaking when casting on party members.

I would rework the cleric specific spells that are already there to give some of them more of a punch against the introduced monsters, and I would enable a few positive debuffing spells a wider area of effect.

A few better summons, improved touch spells that nearly instacast and give a rebalanced thac0 bonus. Some apr perhaps.

But yes... that balancing needs testing and gets in the way of anything v7 related (if that is still on the way).

I think the issue is that the avenger got some bonuses that might have suited the cleric or the shaman better. (melee shaman with axes, daggers, scimitar would be sweet).

This post has been edited by lroumen: Oct 3 2022, 09:59 PM

[SparrowJacek]

I love how there are so many new ideas for rebalancing, even after so many years! Thank you for that and keep this thread alive

Cleric class is the one that requires the most rebalancing, I already have many ideas for that, and I see some new ones here. Let me tell you my vision of what I want a cleric to be (with some spoilers):
We can agree that mages are the ultimate tanks
Shamans will be the ultimate healers with some powerful situational buffs
Clerics should be neither of them, I want clerics to be the frontliners, who can pack a punch without the need to dual class, support other frontliners and work especially well against undead and demons.

If you guys are eager to test some changes, I think I could implement (at least some of) those changes and provide a beta version for you to check and provide feedback. But I'll need some time for that and it might be buggy, since critto won't be able to help for some time and I'm not too experienced with some things I have in mind.

[pekkae]

I love how there are so many new ideas for rebalancing, even after so many years! Thank you for that and keep this thread alive

Cleric class is the one that requires the most rebalancing, I already have many ideas for that, and I see some new ones here. Let me tell you my vision of what I want a cleric to be (with some spoilers):
We can agree that mages are the ultimate tanks
Shamans will be the ultimate healers with some powerful situational buffs
Clerics should be neither of them, I want clerics to be the frontliners, who can pack a punch without the need to dual class, support other frontliners and work especially well against undead and demons.

If you guys are eager to test some changes, I think I could implement (at least some of) those changes and provide a beta version for you to check and provide feedback. But I'll need some time for that and it might be buggy, since critto won't be able to help for some time and I'm not too experienced with some things I have in mind.

The plan for the Cleric sound good.

I'd be more than happy to try out changes, as I'll need to make changes to the game to keep it interesting.

[lappen]

I love how there are so many new ideas for rebalancing, even after so many years! Thank you for that and keep this thread alive

Cleric class is the one that requires the most rebalancing, I already have many ideas for that, and I see some new ones here. Let me tell you my vision of what I want a cleric to be (with some spoilers):
We can agree that mages are the ultimate tanks
Shamans will be the ultimate healers with some powerful situational buffs
Clerics should be neither of them, I want clerics to be the frontliners, who can pack a punch without the need to dual class, support other frontliners and work especially well against undead and demons.

If you guys are eager to test some changes, I think I could implement (at least some of) those changes and provide a beta version for you to check and provide feedback. But I'll need some time for that and it might be buggy, since critto won't be able to help for some time and I'm not too experienced with some things I have in mind.

sounds great !

[ed boy]

Cleric class is the one that requires the most rebalancing, I already have many ideas for that, and I see some new ones here. Let me tell you my vision of what I want a cleric to be (with some spoilers):
We can agree that mages are the ultimate tanks
Shamans will be the ultimate healers with some powerful situational buffs
Clerics should be neither of them, I want clerics to be the frontliners, who can pack a punch without the need to dual class, support other frontliners and work especially well against undead and demons.

I would disagree with you on a couple points there. A divine frontliner would be a paladin, a cleric would need to be a primary caster to let paladin keep their identity.

My personal breakdown of what each class's role should be is:


To describe each caster combination in more detail:
Mage: Important for dismantling other casters and making them vulnerable to warrior party members, while allowing warrior party members to take advantage of lowered enemy defences. Single class means high caster level for things that matter (i.e. dispel checks from other casters). Blaster role takes off after Alacrity is unlocked.
Druid: Best at elemental damage and protection from elemental damage. Alacrity gives big blasting potential, somewhat better blasting than mage. Good at summoning and battlefield control.
Cleric: Best at stopping party members from dying. No access to Alacrity means that spells are stuck at once per round, and are big and splashy enough that once per round is enough. Slightly faster level progression than mage means protection from dispel effects. Strongest at dispelling, but only has access to Dispel Magic and not Remove Magic.
Fighter/Wizard: Combines offensive damage output of fighter with defensive ability of mage. Vulnerable to other casters, as dispel checks are pretty much always lost. Limited blasting ability.
Fighter/Druid: Less defensive ability than the fighter/wizard, but more offensive ability. Less offensive ability than the Ranger, but stronger casting ability.
Fighter/Cleric: Similar to the Fighter/Druid. Better against undead/outsiders, but worse against other enemies.
Mage/Cleric: Highest utility of any caster. In late game, becomes the ultimate blaster by combining Alacrity from mage with the impact of cleric spells.

Changes that could be made to achieve this:

• Give Aura Cleansing to all druids, not just Auramasters
• Give Clerics access to Improved Haste (or another APR increasing buff), probably at level 7 to prevent too early access to the spell
• Change Giant Strength to be a Cleric spell, probably at level 6
• Give clerics RVE as a HLA

This post has been edited by ed boy: Oct 7 2022, 08:26 PM

[lroumen]

Quite some classes in anvil got the short end of the stick. Thieves, clerics, bards... Their tasks are taken over by other classes or kits. If you do not have about 4 melee capable characters and a pure mage, then you are going to have a bad time.
I can understand that replacing one of those melee with a new choice is quite interesting. But on the other hand, it should not be strongest warrior.

I guess I mean, not everyone should be good in melee, but that is what the mods is going towards. Even mages can do well with Tensers partial transformation. My preference is to play the kits and classes as the archetype roles.
But I do think one cleric kit or mage kit (maybe dragon disciple) could fit with enhanced weapon skills/spells as a one-off from the archtype role (same as swashbuckler and blade).

This post has been edited by lroumen: Oct 8 2022, 11:33 AM

[ed boy]

I think that various thief multis/duals have a place as UAI users. They have the downside of missing out on powerful kit abilities and caster level dependent stuff (eg dispel wars), but the upside of being able to enhance their non-thief class by using items meant for a third class. Fighter/thieves get the best of this, though there are other cases a mage being able to use the druidic circlet that improves casting speed. If we had stronger caster-specific equipment, then I could see mage/thief and cleric/thief having a place as "Someone who can cast spells from X class but use items from Y class to bolster their abilities". I can't see a way to make pure thieves viable, unless we give them more strong HLAs or give them a new kit that fixes the APR problem.

Thieves and Bards have similar problems where the gap between them and a fighter in damage output is too large. They both have terrible THAC0 progression, lagging behind the cleric and beating only the mage. They both have terrible APR, with bards and non-swashbuckler thieves the joint worst APR in the game (no APR for level progression, limited to a single proficiency point in weapons so no APR from proficiency, offensive spin and haste are not compatible), and swashbucklers barely above that (an extra 0.5 APR from specialisation). Their damage per hit is also terrible, with bards and non-swashbucklers gaining no benefit from proficiency and swashbucklers getting their on-hit bonus rarely and unreliably. They classically have the ability to perform fewer big hits (eg backstabs), but IA enemies are resistant to those, and the way damage resistances and rounding works means that fewer big attacks don't have the impact of

If we want to balance them, we need to give them additional APR to put them in the middle between casters and warriors, and also create stronger class-specific items so UAI duals/multis can boost their non-thief class. Some ideas:

• Items with restricted class that a Thief/Caster will want (eg druid specific item with a casting speed bonus, cleric specific item with silence immunity)
• Additional powerful HLAs for a single class thief (to give a reason to play thief without another class)
• THAC0 changes - for reference, warrior tops out at 0, cleric at 6 and mage at 8
  • Thieves to top out at 4 instead of 7
  • Bards to top out at 2 instead of 7
• APR changes - for reference, warrior tops out at 3 (1 base, +1 from levels, +1 from proficiency), cleric and mage at 1
  • Thieves to be able to specialize (top out at 1.5)
  • Bards able to specialize and gain an additional 0.5APR at level 10 (top out at 2)
  • Swashbucklers able to GM (top out at 2)
• Thief/bard specific items that enhance combat
  • Equipment for thieves/bards to improve THAC0 (like the Melodic Fury ring from the old The Four mod)
  • Equipment for thieves/bards to increase APR (+0.5 if it consumes a minor equipment slot, +1 if it consumes a major equipment slot)

I'm not sure how I feel about swashbuckler - It should definitely be stronger than both thieves and bards in combat, but I feel like it should lag slightly behind a pure warrior. Monk is a class that I have no idea how it can be brought up to par with the others.

[SparrowJacek]

Thieves and Bards have similar problems where the gap between them and a fighter in damage output is too large.

At the moment that's true for all except for Swashbucklers. I think that players haven't used Swhashies that much, which is a shame. At some point I made a calculation, which showed that swashbucklers are only slightly worse at dealing damage than kensais with 2h weapons and now Hexxat is also a Swashbuckler with her powerful upgraded weapon giving additional 1/2 APR.

and swashbucklers barely above that (an extra 0.5 APR from specialisation)

Non-warrior classes don't get that additional APR, so Swashies still have only 1APR, which can be only changed by items/abilities/spells.

THAC0 changes - for reference, warrior tops out at 0, cleric at 6 and mage at 8
Thieves to top out at 4 instead of 7
Bards to top out at 2 instead of 7

That's a really good idea, I had no clue that their thaco is so terrible, because I only ever played a Swashbuckler...

APR changes - for reference, warrior tops out at 3 (1 base, +1 from levels, +1 from proficiency), cleric and mage at 1
Thieves to be able to specialize (top out at 1.5)
Bards able to specialize and gain an additional 0.5APR at level 10 (top out at 2)
Swashbucklers able to GM (top out at 2)

As pointed above, the engine doesn't give any APR to non-warrior classes (fighter/paladin/ranger)

Equipment for thieves/bards to increase APR (+0.5 if it consumes a minor equipment slot, +1 if it consumes a major equipment slot)

- Swashbucklers are all about dual wield, they can use weapons like Water's Edge to boost their APR to 6 + Hexxat has her cloak, which gives 7APR + their on-hit abilities
- after my new change, Assassins should become really good at dealing damage, in fact some of my ideas might make them too overpowered, that's why I'd love to hear some constructive criticism from players testing them
- at some point Bounty Hunters will also be rebalanced, I see them as ranged fighters using (rebalanced) traps, not engaging in close combat if they can avoid it
- Shadowdancer will need to be rebalanced or removed entirely, due to some changes I want to introduce

In general what I want to do is to make pure thieves (at least kitted ones) be useful without the need to dual/multiclass them, I even have a simple solution for that, you will be able to reach full potential of this class only with pure thief, though multi/duals should still be a viable option. We want to bring as much variety to party composition as we can, since v6.0 was very restrictive in that regard.

Monk is a class that I have no idea how it can be brought up to par with the others.

Did you play with a monk after the changes done in 6.2 I think? At some point they have 3-24(base) +5(enchantment) dmg, they get +4 from gauntlets of crushing, can get up to +14 from strength so 26-47 dmg with 8 steady APR (as they have undispellable IH), with their upgraded amulet and Diamond Body they get amazing Damage Reduction and regeneration (which is doubled because of how the game engine treats IH) + they're immune to most of the nasty stuff and have solid Magic Resistance, which allows them to avoid stuff like 3xADHW. Monks are very powerful and extremely cheap (as they need only the amulet and rings/cloak +2), their only weakness and downside in terms of fun is that they just punch with their fists dealing crushing damage, there's little space for intricate tactics and clever skill use. Also in the newest version Rashaad's item will be slightly better.

This post has been edited by SparrowJacek: Oct 9 2022, 06:21 PM

[SparrowJacek]

I would disagree with you on a couple points there. A divine frontliner would be a paladin, a cleric would need to be a primary caster to let paladin keep their identity.

That's a viable point, we will need to keep that in mind.

My personal breakdown of what each class's role should be is:

That would be balanced, with different classes being best at different stuff, sadly that would require too many changes in the current game. We will gradually make changes, improving the balance and bringing back some of the more underused spells, but I don't think that many spells will be moved between classes.

Give Aura Cleansing to all druids, not just Auramasters

We don't want to enable too many classes/kits to full Aura Cleansing. The spell is very broken when used by late game Necro or Cernd (as pekkae showed in one of his playthroughs ), not as much when used by others (since they can't get as much casting time decrease), but it would lose its flavour, if everyone could use it. If you play a pure druid, you usually pick a kit, at the moment Auramaster is the best caster, while Avenger is an amazing fighter with additional useful spells when needed. At some point we might rebalance Shapeshifter, and this kit wouldn't also benefit from Aura Cleansing.

I wonder how you will react to the changes that we have made to Shaman class, as it has... hmm... some kind of Aura Cleansing, although more tactical, requiring players to think about which spells they will need

[lroumen]

Art apr.
You can give kits the ability to follow the warrior thac0 bonuses via clswpbon = ~1 m n~, just check the weidu or kit tutorials for that. Alternative is to give them Apr via effect upon reaching a certain
level but I am not sure that plays well with improved haste.

Wrt alacrity
I often use a homemade spell that gives alacrity for 3 seconds and casting speed of - 3 as a convenience, just in order to prebuff a bit faster. The main issue with priests is that you need casting speed rather than alacrity because everything takes so long, and therefore the better buffer is the auramaster currently.

This post has been edited by lroumen: Oct 9 2022, 11:16 PM

[SparrowJacek]

Here's a very little teaser of the changes that I will be introducing for the new beta version of IA:

Reworked Repulse Undead:

~Weaken Undead
(Abjuration)

Level: 5
Range: 0
Duration: 6 rounds
Casting Time: 5
Area of Effect: The caster
Saving Throw: None

This powerful spell creates waves of anti-negative energy that sweep outward from the caster. These waves disrupt any undead that attempt to attack the caster, reducing the physical damage they deal by 10% and decreasing their chance for critical hit by 5% for 7 seconds. There is one wave per round for the duration of the spell, which renews the effects, but does not stack with itself. All undead are affected with no Saving Throw, this spell bypasses Magic Resistance.~

I don't think that there was any use for the original spell in IA. Now it can be helpful, when encountering powerful undead, especially Skeleton Grandlords, that hit very hard! Also this spell will have a short area of effect, which will be my way of pushing Clerics closer to the front lines and this trend will be visible in some of my other changes.

Art apr.
You can give kits the ability to follow the warrior thac0 bonuses via clswpbon = ~1 m n~, just check the weidu or kit tutorials for that. Alternative is to give them Apr via effect upon reaching a certain
level but I am not sure that plays well with improved haste.

That's new for me, great to know, that such things are possible unfortunately this enables both APR from levels and from weapon specialisation, there's no way to activate them separately.

Wrt alacrity
I often use a homemade spell that gives alacrity for 3 seconds and casting speed of - 3 as a convenience, just in order to prebuff a bit faster. The main issue with priests is that you need casting speed rather than alacrity because everything takes so long, and therefore the better buffer is the auramaster currently.

For this issue I have some ideas, both for general Cleric progression and for some interesting HLAs, but they might be broken if you dual into a mage... We really don't want to introduce this stuff only to Cleric kits and restricting these kits from dualling. That's why I hope you will be able to provide some feedback

This post has been edited by SparrowJacek: Oct 10 2022, 01:26 PM

[pekkae]

There's really good ideas here in this thread. And SparrowJacek> those new capabilities look like a lot of fun! I hope they are released soon =)! I can play-test as well, if needed to. Though I'm not sure when I can actually start a proper game.

After tinkering with a cleric for a little bit, here's a few additional Ideas.

In case of Cleric protagonist, bring some RvE options for a cleric, but with modifications. So that one cannot have full Necro & full-cleric capabilities. So ...

1. Really good option would be to give cleric the ability to cast "long lasting regeneration" on another party member. While RvE regen is quite nice, most of the spell will be sort of useless on higher difficulty levels when you essentially have only one physical resistance tank as regen on a skinned character is rather pointless as only a few selected characters can get enough physical resistance to be able to tank. Long lasting regen would fix that. Especially if it's non dispellable and would bring a lot to the party. It sort of makes sense as well for Cleric is supposed to be the ultimate healer.

2. Give the cleric an altered "wish" (in case of cleric protagonist). Change greater deathblow to Critical Strike (or Power Attack) and "double length time-stop & ia" to "wish:rest" (so cleric protagonist has higher chance of scoring wish:rest). Bring back "knockback" from lower wisdom-levels to higher wisdom levels (it should be quite ok choice assuming cleric isn't that good in H2H).

3. Make some clerical buffs non-dispellable. Say for example improved protection from evil (same bonuses, same duration but non-dispellable).

4. Give the cleric access to spell trigger & spell sequencer, as it's a way to get the spells off faster without giving access to Alacricity.

Blessed Bracers should probably be usable by a cleric as well. The priest of lathander with Blessed Bracers should be quite effective in H2H, even though missing critical strike will hurt a lot later in the game. Still 5 APR's with fighter Thac0's with full access to all abilities is nothing to scoff at. The only thing making this character a non-frontliner is the incapability to protect itself. Actually with cleric level progression this character should be very good in H2H very early in the game as it'll have really good thac0 from the start though it's effectiveness in H2H will wear out during the game, but ehn high level spells & other abilities will become available.

This post has been edited by pekkae: Oct 10 2022, 02:16 PM

[lroumen]

Do you also have the shaman changes in the release? I have been hoping to do a run with that for a while now.

- protagonist evil shaman
- Hexxat swashbuckler
- Viconia improved cleric
- Korgan, berzerker

Maybe something like
- Dorn, black guard or undead hunter
- Edwin, conjurer

Not sure.

[SparrowJacek]

After tinkering with a cleric for a little bit, here's a few additional Ideas.

We won't be tackling other protagonists than Druids/Shamans right now, maybe only toning down Vagrants, but this has a very low priority. Right now I'm focused mostly on rebalancing the existing aspects/spells/abilities of Clerics (many smaller changes) and Thieves (a complete rework of Stealth and some changes to other thieving skills) and Critto, when he has some time, is implementing and testing the new Druid Stronghold.

3. Make some clerical buffs non-dispellable. Say for example improved protection from evil (same bonuses, same duration but non-dispellable).

There's actually a change similar to what you propose, that I want to make

4. Give the cleric access to spell trigger & spell sequencer, as it's a way to get the spells off faster without giving access to Alacricity.

Fun fact - our first version of reworked Avenger had these spells. We will see how some other changes work and if Clerics are still underwhelming, then this might be a nice idea, though we still want to make classes as distinct as possible. Yes, I know that they tend to become more and more melee oriented, but there are different ways of making characters useful in H2H combat, I hope you will be able to see and feel that with new Cleric/Thief upgrades.

Blessed Bracers should probably be usable by a cleric as well.

No objections, Clerics would benefit from this and all Cleric multi/dual classes suffer greatly from being able to use only crushing weapons, so it shouldn't upset the balance.

Do you also have the shaman changes in the release? I have been hoping to do a run with that for a while now.

Yes, we do have this class finished, so you can see for yourself if it's any useful and fun to play.

- protagonist evil shaman
- Hexxat swashbuckler
- Viconia improved cleric
- Korgan, berzerker

Maybe something like
- Dorn, black guard or undead hunter
- Edwin, conjurer

If I manage to make all the changes to Thieves, then I would love to see your Hexxat changed to an Assassin

[lroumen]

Shaman is in. That's a sure playthrough from me then.

I prefer to keep Hexxat a swashbuckler for now, but I can see why you would consider her more an assassin.

[SparrowJacek]

Okay, time for the second teaser of the changes:

False Dawn (Evocation)
Sphere: Sun
Level: 6
Range: 0
Duration: Instant
Casting Time: 9
Area of Effect: 15-foot radius sphere
Saving Throw: None

False dawn calls into existence a bright reddish light, as if a sunrise were occurring, within the area of effect. All vampires, shadows and mists within a false dawn suffer 6d4 points of fire damage. There is no saving throw against this damage. This spell bypasses both Magic Resistance and Fire Resistance (innate or magical) of the affected creatures.

This post has been edited by SparrowJacek: Oct 11 2022, 08:25 AM

[lappen]

i want to see the next version D pllzzz