Yet another run, this time starring a Necro, Max H2H Options

[pekkae]

As it's been relatively quiet for some time at the forum I though I'd do a post about a run I've been thinking about recently. I don't have the time to start this in the near future, but every now and then I find myself yet again tinkering with the crew composition. Any comments would be welcome.

Our last run with "double -5" worked extremely well for most parts of the game. While we has some difficulties, we managed to develop our crew to quite OP mid-game and break through the demofight.

This time instead of being insanely capable in spellcasting we thought we'd develop an extreme H2H crew, playing on insane. This is what is in the works:

The locks (edit: they turned out not to be locks ...)

PC: Necromancer. Shall get the Necro stuff thus with required buffs be a little bit competent in H2H as well. With 2 APR / Decent Thac0 through TPT & Giant Strength. We thinks she'll be ok.

Jaheira: Early game superpowers. Great 2H H2H. Skins & Critical Striking. She rocks.

Custom multiclass F/I: Early game ubertank. Will get fighter Thac0's & Critical Strikes. Worked amazingly well on the last run.

Riskbreaker (probably Imoen): Will get JD. Gets to amazing physical resistance though Hardiness + CBS + JD. Will be an amazing tank + damage dealer.

What we're thinking

A custom R/C multiclass. Shall get full access to druidic spells. So fighter Thac0's, Critical Strikes + skins. Oh and insanely low AC (effective should hover around -28 unbuffed mid game). The only character that can both tank + has about the best combat buffs available (Draw Upon Holy Might should work wonders + Righteous Magic). We think she'll be great.

And the last slot.

Valygar the Vagrant? Can probably tank a little bit with Vagrant bonuses + Defender of Easthaven + Greean leaves armour + Armor of Faith + Double Regen. And can summon. Gets ofc fighter thac0's & critical strikes.

But if not Vagrant, whom should we take? Regular fighters are out of question for physical resistance through only hardiness is rather useless on insane - the characters need something else to protect themselves or increased physical resistance though something else.

A custom made Swashbuckler/Fighter could work as a dual classed assassin->fighter.

What else?

This post has been edited by pekkae: Oct 4 2022, 06:50 PM

[lroumen]

The strongest you have already listed our played before (like Kensai).

Valygar as protector is already a strong melee choice with nice utility. The vagrant mostly brings additional summons to the table.

I am personally quite charmed by a two weapon paladin, monks once into their magic resistance, and even the pure swashbuckler is a nice addition.

[pekkae]

The strongest you have already listed our played before (like Kensai).

Valygar as protector is already a strong melee choice with nice utility. The vagrant mostly brings additional summons to the table.

I am personally quite charmed by a two weapon paladin, monks once into their magic resistance, and even the pure swashbuckler is a nice addition.

Thanks for the reply!

Yes Kensai is so effective with JD it's a little bit gamebreaking.

I'm not sure about Valygar, I'd like to play it to see how it goes but on insane Valygar version of Vagrant (without forging the Vagrant protagonist's stuff) doesn't have that good of physical resistance so I'm thinking the Vagrant will be in trouble. To even it out we could use staves / halberd's for the Vagrant in addition to dualwielding axe + defender of easthaven.

How would you play the dual-wielding paladin? I played Keldorn once or twice, giving him JD in the end. It's quite the effective character then.

I haven't played a swashbuckler, but the lack of UAI + critical strike makes the kit non-starter for what we are looking for.

It might just be that the crew turns out to be:

Necro
Jaheira
Multiclass F/I
Multiclass R/C (with full access to clerical spells)
Dual Assasin -> Fighter
Valygar the Vagrant (or a riskbreaker)

Played like this Vagrant would get JD thus buffing it's physical resistance quite a lot. The A-F is a 2H weapons specialist who can get up to 80-90% in phys. resistance, great APR's and ofc. it can PFMW / stoneskin from scrolls when needed to help out.

That's five characters who should have -15 Thac0, 7-10 attacks per round + critical strikes. Even though we won't get that many per character, because of the dual- & multi classes. Also everyone will be able to protect itself in a meaningful way. On insane hardiness + RvE:Regen doesn't really amount to that much.

[lroumen]

The swashbuckler gets enough gear to be contributing, and I always want a thief for traps and locks. The most power is in the on hit effects, and with the very low ac and the effect that raises ac, they are very durable.

Paladins with bastard swords and JD are quite nice. It takes a while to get them there because these weapons come late, but meanwhile there are enough long swords avaliable as well as axes. Some cleric spells like armour of faith and resist fear, cure paralysis and they are very useful as well on utility.

[SparrowJacek]

Great to see another run from you!

It's a shame, that we don't have more time for modding lately. I had a (well, in my opinion at least!) nice idea for Thief rebalancing, that could bring all kits back to the game without the need to dual class them. After that change, a single class Assassin would be a good addition to your party, I'm sure of that.

At some point we will introduce those changes (and many more!), I hope you will be motivated to test new party composiotions and tell us your opinion about them!

[bulian]

Sounds fun! My vote is for 3x RB, 2x Avenger (1x dual wield, 1x 2H), and sorcerer or necro.

I’m surprised to hear you say that JD breaks the game, since JD comes nearly at the end of the game. Good luck!

[lappen]

im really waiting for u next changes.

i would like to test everything u offer =)

[pekkae]

The swashbuckler gets enough gear to be contributing, and I always want a thief for traps and locks. The most power is in the on hit effects, and with the very low ac and the effect that raises ac, they are very durable.

Paladins with bastard swords and JD are quite nice. It takes a while to get them there because these weapons come late, but meanwhile there are enough long swords avaliable as well as axes. Some cleric spells like armour of faith and resist fear, cure paralysis and they are very useful as well on utility.

Hmh. Ok. I'm a bit worried about the very low HP of the Swashbuckler + very low APR's if using 2H weapons. That's why I've always sort of dismissed them outright. Playing on insane the negative sides only are alleviated.

Completely agree on the Paladin. Keldorn with beefed up wisdom rocking JD + The Truth for example is really good character.

Great to see another run from you!

It's a shame, that we don't have more time for modding lately. I had a (well, in my opinion at least!) nice idea for Thief rebalancing, that could bring all kits back to the game without the need to dual class them. After that change, a single class Assassin would be a good addition to your party, I'm sure of that.

At some point we will introduce those changes (and many more!), I hope you will be motivated to test new party composiotions and tell us your opinion about them!

Haha. Nice to see someone read my ramblings. It would be much fun to try out new things you are working on, at least that way I wouldn't have to make up my own alterations to the game to make it more interesting. Care to share anything about the modifications to the Assassin?

Sounds fun! My vote is for 3x RB, 2x Avenger (1x dual wield, 1x 2H), and sorcerer or necro.

I’m surprised to hear you say that JD breaks the game, since JD comes nearly at the end of the game. Good luck!

Thanks! I don't about to RB's, I think I would have terrible time surviving with this crew as only 3 skinned characters + RB's arent that good with 2H weapons. But on core this is probably as deadly as it gets.

[pekkae]

(post moved to a seprate thread)

This post has been edited by pekkae: Oct 1 2022, 10:06 AM

[lroumen]

Oh sorry. I thought you meant dual weapons. I completely misread.
In that case you are right, swashbucklers are not too good.

Paladins do well either way. Berserker, barbarian, kensai and dwarven defender are fine, but lack magic powers thus if you use several then I would opt for a few dual class.

Rangers are meh. Risk breaker cannot specialise.

Other than that, avenger is amazing.

[pekkae]

Oh sorry. I thought you meant dual weapons. I completely misread.
In that case you are right, swashbucklers are not too good.

Paladins do well either way. Berserker, barbarian, kensai and dwarven defender are fine, but lack magic powers thus if you use several then I would opt for a few dual class.

Rangers are meh. Risk breaker cannot specialise.

Other than that, avenger is amazing.

I'm a bit worried about about the Swashbucklers durability, I probably should start on Core rules if using them just see how it works. Probably better to use Swashbuckler as a dual wielder, possibly with Water's Edge in off-hand. I usually play with forging restrictions in place so it would be Hexxat for me, as her robe upgrade is really, really nice item.

I'm actually tinkering with the classes quite a lot as I don't really want another run that's like the runs that I've had before . We'll see where it ends.

Paladin, for Blessed Bracers + Blessings is by the end very, very deadly character. But quite terrible at tanking. And I hate the fact that Devas are so underpowered in IA compared to Swanays, Smilodons and such summons.

This post has been edited by pekkae: Oct 4 2022, 06:49 PM

[pekkae]

I've been tinkering with the crew for a little bit and I find myself most attracted to the following combination.

Necro (shall get the full Necro gear)
Jaheira
Priest of Lathander -> Mage (changes described below)
Riskbreaker for dual-wieding superpowers + ultimate physical resistance (hardiness+ CBS + JD + blessings should get this char to 90%)
Valygar the Vagrant (shall get FoDW ... for there's no +4 version od defender of Easthaven)

And for the last slot I will make a custom Swashbuckler->Fighter that will specialize in 2H weapons. Shall get gauntlets of extraordinary weapons specialization. Can't protect itself that much so no need for Hardinesses, so full on CS for this character. I'm not sure if it's more effective than a Kensai, even with Swashbuckler bonuses + GoEWS but this character should be able to reach about -24AC (without swashbuckler bonuses), 7 APR with -18 Thac0. Will use Halberds + Staffs.

Priest of LAthander with the following modifications.

+ Gains +2 in Wisdom
+ Can use Blessed Bracers.
+ Gets Boon of Lathander every 5 levels
+ Gains -1 in casting time on level 14
+ Gets +2 casting level at level 15
+ Gets to use Might of Avariel (without increases in casting levels, it's broken that way at least on my game)
- 1 in STR + DEX + CON
- Doesnt' get hold undead
- Cant summon a Deva

[ed boy]

I'm surprised that the bioware NPCs make the cut - Jaheira lacks the critical additional spells that an auramaster druid would get, and only has 15 strength, lacking behind other warriors. She has a unique item, but does that make up for creating a custom character with more optimized attributes?

Unless your swashbuckler is getting UAI before dualing, I would expect a kensai to be a stronger character. One of the advantages of a kensai that I have found is crucial is the THAC0 bonuses they get - in the mid to late game, there will be powerful enemies that a non-kensai will hit 50% of the time of less, and kensais being able to hit reliably does so much heavy lifting. If you are getting UAI before dualing, then it is probably worth saving the gauntlets for another character.

A kensai/rogue (dualing at level 27) is probably the most powerful warrior possible in IA because of being able to a bonus of 9 to THAC0 and damage - it's the only character I've found that is able to beat the EDE solo (but it cannot get to the EDE by itself).

[pekkae]

I'm surprised that the bioware NPCs make the cut - Jaheira lacks the critical additional spells that an auramaster druid would get, and only has 15 strength, lacking behind other warriors. She has a unique item, but does that make up for creating a custom character with more optimized attributes?

Unless your swashbuckler is getting UAI before dualing, I would expect a kensai to be a stronger character. One of the advantages of a kensai that I have found is crucial is the THAC0 bonuses they get - in the mid to late game, there will be powerful enemies that a non-kensai will hit 50% of the time of less, and kensais being able to hit reliably does so much heavy lifting. If you are getting UAI before dualing, then it is probably worth saving the gauntlets for another character.

A kensai/rogue (dualing at level 27) is probably the most powerful warrior possible in IA because of being able to a bonus of 9 to THAC0 and damage - it's the only character I've found that is able to beat the EDE solo (but it cannot get to the EDE by itself).

I never thought about creating a custom Avenger, since I find Jaheira is optimized enough. Also our Riskbreaker would be probably be Imoen, as she has really good stats for a Riskbreaker & her unique item more than makes up for non-optimized attributes. I don't remember if Valygar (as Vagrant) has Vagrant bonuses instead of having protector minuses, but I would make the changes in my local game if they are not there (protector gets -1 con and vagrant gets +1 con). Other stats are good enough. Plus Valygar's armour upgrade is really nice item for a Vagrant.

So I would have

Necro
Jaheira
Imoen
Valygar
Custom (Swashbuckler->Fighter)
Custom (PoL->M)

I would dual class Swashbuckler from level 2 I guess to a fighter. And yes, while the Kensai will hit more than anything else in the game in the late game my S/F having 10+ critical strikes makes up for it enough, meaning that compared to a Kensai S/F will have a slight edge in APR's + we'll have the Swashbuckler bonus effects in use as well. While it won't be as effective as a Kensai, the character is a little bit more flexible + can also be an amazing damage dealer. Plus we'll get amazingly low AC thanks to some thief specific items + bonuses. I also don't want to have a character with very limited utility at the same time, as dualling the PoL to a mage at level 15 will make it's cleric class unavailable for a pretty long time.

I'm quite sure the Swashbuckler doesn't get UAI, it's dropped from the HLA table.

This post has been edited by pekkae: Oct 9 2022, 03:29 PM

[SparrowJacek]

I'm surprised that the bioware NPCs make the cut - Jaheira lacks the critical additional spells that an auramaster druid would get, and only has 15 strength, lacking behind other warriors. She has a unique item, but does that make up for creating a custom character with more optimized attributes?

Baldur's Gate II is meant to be played with BioWare NPCs, that's why we made a huge effort to bring back some of them and make them as useful as possible. In general they won't be as good as player created characters, but they have their flavor, items and banters, so I'd highly recommend using them for role playing if you aren't focused on power gaming

Jaheira has access to DuHM, which increases her strength + Avenger is at the moment one of the most overpowered kits, Clan Spirit is absurdly powerful, with proper buffs it can even solo an Elemental Golem, if I remember correctly.

Unless your swashbuckler is getting UAI before dualin

As pekkae said - Swashies don't get UAI as HLA, they have other interesting abilities.

[pekkae]

Baldur's Gate II is meant to be played with BioWare NPCs, that's why we made a huge effort to bring back some of them and make them as useful as possible. In general they won't be as good as player created characters, but they have their flavor, items and banters, so I'd highly recommend using them for role playing if you aren't focused on power gaming

Jaheira has access to DuHM, which increases her strength + Avenger is at the moment one of the most overpowered kits, Clan Spirit is absurdly powerful, with proper buffs it can even solo an Elemental Golem, if I remember correctly.

Yea, they are not that good stats wise but in most of the cases their personal item upgrades easily more than make up for the non-optimzed stats. Nalia is a better fighter/mage than any custom made character, ditto for Jan for Thief/Mage. Also Imoen as Riskbreaker/Kensai works insane well at least the way I develop those characters. Minsc already has better stats than a custom made character would have + great personal item if one likes Barbarians that is

And of course it's much more fun playing with say Minsc & Jan.

This post has been edited by pekkae: Oct 10 2022, 12:31 PM

[pekkae]

I think I have this figures out. Ahem. Again

We'll go with

Necro (PC)
Jaheira
Imoen the Riskbreaker
Valygar the Vagrant
Custom Fighter/Illusionist
Custom Priest of Lathander dual classed into a mage.

We'll edit the Priest of Lathander the following way:

+ Gets 2 in casting time
+ On level 15 gets a bonus of +3 to caster levels (divine) (so casts divine spells as 3 levels higher)
+ Gains boon of Lathander every 5 levels starting from level 5
+ Gets +3 to Wisdom
+ Immunity to silence, greater silence & grave silence
+ Immunity to fear
+ Can use blessed bracers & Might of the Avariel (without bonuses in caster levels)

- Gets -6 to STR, -2 to DEX and -2 to CON
- Doesn't receive "hold undead"
- Can't use any armors
- Can't use 2-handed weapons
- Can use bucklers & small shields only
- Can't use missile weapons
- Doesn't receive weapons-style bonuses

( + but can use mage robes after dual classing)

We'll dual class her from level 15 to a Mage, thus eventually ending up with alacricity and ok casting time bonus with enough spell slots to be effective.

This way we'll have amazing summoning abilities (clan spirit, swanmays, skeleton lords, smiodon, greater elementals & anaconda's) and almost all characters are such that we can protect them in the fights. We'll also have enough casting abilities + really good H2H abilities. Our custom Priest of LAthander should be a great tank & very versatile + can pack enough of a punch to be effective H2H combat as well. We think she'll be great!

This post has been edited by pekkae: Oct 10 2022, 12:47 PM

[lroumen]

At strength - 6?
With the right gear I guess... But that takes a while

This post has been edited by lroumen: Oct 10 2022, 04:41 PM

[pekkae]

Well, it's back to the drawing board. After having a glimpse of the new & upcoming things from v7 I'm quite confident that I won't start a playthrough until the shiny new thingies are available!

It's a bit of a shame, I think the crew planned here would have worked out amazingly well especially considering the crew's summoning capabilities + buffing capabilities (almost 2 full mages with half a mage in F/I) + the best summons in the game, out counting greater elementals, as we only get Sunnis from Noble Staff of Earth. Plus the tremendous H2H capabilities we would have had.

But we'll use this crew as a template and make enough changes to keep the game fresh.

So Im thinking about the following:

Necro PC
Jaheira
Imoen the Riskbreaker
Valygar the Vagrant (gets FoDW)
Custom Half-Orc Shaman
Either Priest of Lathander -> Mage or a Custom made Fighter/Illusionist

This post has been edited by pekkae: Oct 12 2022, 06:03 PM

[pekkae]

At strength - 6?
With the right gear I guess... But that takes a while

The character would have had the correct buffs to offset this, though it would have been quite useless in combat if not fully buffed.

That's an ok price to pay for the most precious & powerful abilities in the game (at least what we think) as in casting time minuses.

This post has been edited by pekkae: Oct 12 2022, 06:01 PM