Mod for NeJ3: Erevain Blacksheaf NPC Options

[Bill Bisco]

Here's my thought process on stats:

Intelligence: Being a Triple Class, Erevain will never get 9th level spells unless an exp cap remover mod is installed. Even if so, during a *normal* playthrough, Erevain will be unikely to get 9th level spells still. If somehow neither of these is true, there's 2 easy ways to get 18 intelligence late in the game. Machine of Lum the Mad and Golden Ioun Stone in Saradush in ToB which should happen well before 9th level spells and 18 Int become necessary. Edwin is the only NPC with a natural 18 Intelligence. I would prefer not to introduce an NPC which totally trounces him at the start. 17 works I think.

Charisma: This can be as low as 10 without reaction penalties. I think this should be as low as possible. I don't know about the Ring of Might's requirements. It's also feasible for Erevain to just wear Charisma improving items or cast Friends. A worn ring of human influence raises this to 18. A Friends Spell also increases Charisma. I chose 11 because it's "average" enough and lets Wisdom be Higher.

Wisdom: Can be as low as 10 without lore penalties. Aside from ring of Might Requirements (whatever those are), this should probably be as low as possible. It's better to start out with a higher Wisdom for better limited wish spell choices and because it's easier to raise Charisma higher than wish. However, Erevain can always drink a potion of wisdom if he really needs a high wisdom methinks. I chose 15 because of better limited wish opportunities

Dexterity: Coran has 20 Dex. Skie and Imoen have 18 Dex. Alora has 19 Dex. Viconia has 19 Dex. Yoshimo has 18 Dex. Kivan and Aerie both have 17 Dex. Xan has 16 Dex Based on Baldur's Gate Precedent, no elf should have Dex lower than 16. I'm ok with 18. 19 only helps 1 extra point with ranged weapons. I don't want to completely nullify Alora's, Viconia's, or Coran's advantage over Erevain. Given Erevain's ability to sneak into Dragon's eye and survive for so many years, an 18 dex is justified methinks.

Strength: This is where the rubber meets the road and a decision has to be made. Constitution is better long-term because it is harder to raise Constitution than Strength. A belt of Hill Giant Strength and Gauntlets of Ogre Power Are available early in BG2. Belt of Frost Giant Strength in mid-BG2. Belt of Stone Giant Strength - Late BG2. Belt of Fire Giant Strength - mid ToB. Some people will want to create Crom Faeyr which eats up the Gauntlets of Ogre Power and the Belt of Frost Giant Strength. Many people will want to give a Belt of Hill Giant Strength to a weak Str Character like Imoen or Viconia or Aerie or Melora. I would hate to require by design that Erevain uses up one of these few critical Constant Strength boosting items. I would be much more supportive of a low-starting Strength Erevain if an Extra Gauntlets of Ogre Power or equivalent Permanent Str Boosting item would be available in early IWD. However, that is another game-balancing issue.

Synergy-wise, a player gets the most out of Erevain when Erevain is buffed by his Mage Spells, uses his Longsword (specialized via fighter), and backstabs with his Thief Skills. This allows the most damage and for him to use all of his classes. It's much better to backstab with a high Strength than a low Strength (Str To-Hit and To-Damage bonuses). I like 18/50 because Erevain can cast Strength every day as part of his buffing routine and get 18/00 Strength which is still a very respectable +3 Hit +6 Damage. FYI, the best permanent Str item in the game (other than Crom Faeyr) is the Belt of Fire Giant Strength in mid ToB for +4 +10. The Strength spell may stack. If so, Erevain just casts this twice at the beginning of each day and Erevain is naturally awesome.

Constitution: Erevain has to have some disadvantage. I expect a hypothetical CHARNAME Fighter/Mage/Thief to have 18/91 or better Strength, 18 Con, and 18 Int. Erevain should not outshine a CHARNAME on equal footing. Having a low Constitution will necessitate low hit points. Edit: I've run some numbers. 17 Con is a necessity I change my mind. The game has some weird quirks that give extra hp for higher CON when two levels are gained at the same time. Having a low CON will give him lower HP than a typical Mage.

Here's my suggestion for stats:

Str: 13
Dex: 18
Con: 17
Int: 17
Wis: 15
Cha: 11

[Senka]

I would like to ask again: why you need triple-mult? It would be absolutely useless in full party. And constantly beaten due to lack of HP

[Vlad]

Bill, there is one thing that I have noted. You're a P&P role-player and try to project it on the computer game. It doesn't work really. The computer engine is completely different from P&P, but you still think in the categories of P&P and not computers. Senka is correct, the triple character in a party of Hrothgar, Dar, Shar-Teel, upcoming Nalia, Valigar, Viconia, Yoshimo & Kachiko etc etc etc is not practical. Moreover, he is completely useless from the computer game point of view. You won't be able to place Erevain in a fight, he gets spells very slow compared to other mages in the game, his thieving abilities are questionable. So, who would like to take him in the party except you and me? Just because he has some cool dialogues and story? But in the computer game, it's not enough, he should act like your PC or neighbouring NPCs. Low str means he is useless in a combat, low con means he shouldn't go into combat at all, triple class mage is a joke. I want him cast 8 and 9 level spells as soon as possible and to use Dak'kons Blade +5. Let's rethink his triple class and make him a dual fighter/mage, so he can match other NPCs in the game. Regarding thieving abilities, he'll have them in the innate slots inside his Infiltrator kit. Alternatively, let's make him a capable fighter/thief with innate mage spells.

[EDIT] Please bear in mind that the items do not really affect the stats, they just change numbers but do not add actual bonuses or protections. This is the case of str, con and dex, and this is the problem of the engine.

[EDIT2] After some through thought, I think we need to make him originally a fighter/thief. Coran is the only NPC having this combination, and he is great. His Infiltrator kit will add him those spells plus some offensive spells. Then we can boost his str, con and dex on the account of int and wis.

This post has been edited by Vlad: Nov 10 2016, 08:35 PM

[Vlad]

Innate abilities and spells:

Advantages:
- He gains +1 bonus to armor class, +1 to hit and +1 to damage every 4 levels starting from the 3rd level
- He has access to several innate abilities, which become available from his innate slots as he advances levels:
1. Detect Invisibility, Invisibility, Knock and Resist Fear (every 4 levels starting from the 1st level)
2. Invisibility Radius and Detect Illusion (every 4 levels starting from the 3rd level)
3. Dimension Door (every 4 levels starting from the 4th level)
4. Imroved Invisibility (every 4 levels starting from the 6th level)
5. Oracle and Shadow Door (every 4 levels starting from the 7th level)
6. Stone Skin, Power Word Stun, Mislead and True Sight (every 4 levels starting from the 8th level)
7. Pierce Shield, Project Image and Mass Invisibility (every 4 levels starting from the 10th level)
8. Simulacrum (every 4 levels starting from the 13th level) //SPIN525
9. Spell Trap, Fear (at levels 14, 18, 26 and 32) //SPIN130
10. Shape Change (at levels 14, 20, 26 and 32) //SPIN527
11. Spell Trap, Stun (at levels 17, 21, 25 and 29) //SPIN140
12. Power World Kill (at levels 18, 29 and 33) //SPIN147
13. Spell Trap, Death (at levels 20, 24 and 29) //SPIN145
14. Time Stop (at levels 22, 26 and 30) //SPIN526
15. Spell Strike (at levels 22, 29 and 34) //SPIN146

[Senka]

Give him a bow-skill please

[Senka]

And more:
fighter/thief is not good as for me because we already have Imoen and Melora with her beautiful quest. Both girl are single thief and would have advantage over multiclass. Fighter/mage... I don't know really. We have too much NPC and cannot use all of them. Alas.
I recommend you guys to think more about Erevain class and do him more... unique.
Or... may be he will not want to go in Athkatla and would wait for party in Kuldahar?

[Bill Bisco]

Senka and Vlad.

Fighter/Mage/Thief is a powerful class that brings a lot to the table for any party. I'll make some points

Gameplay Related Reasons

1. Fighter/Mage/Thieves are better than Mage/Thieves for the majority of a typical game. Please read this analysis.

2. Fighter/Mage/Thief has a unique niche. That of being a powerful self-buffing melee warrior who does tremendous backstab damage. With Stoneskin, Blur, Mirror Image, Haste, etc., a F/M/T can wade into battle, backstab, and retreat more effectively than Fighter/Thief due to Mage Buffs and protections or a Mage/Thief due to higher APR, Specialization and THac0. If a F/M/T is unable to retreat instantly, s/he can still fall back on their Mage Defenses and Higher AC better than a F/T. A F/M/T will get out of melee quicker than a M/T due to higher APR, THAC0, and damage.

3. Fighter/Mage/Thief is a great passive archer. F/M/T has better APR,Thac0, and damage than a Mage/Thief. Generally, a F/M/T is only 2 Thac0 behind a Fighter/Thief. If you like a play it safe / shoot arrows behind summons or powerful party members, Erevain will work great here.

4. Fighter/Mage/Thief is a fine spellcaster. For a large portion of the game, a F/M/T will be only 1 spell level behind even a Pure Mage.

5. Fighter/Mage/Thief is the only thief you need. F/M/T can have all the relevant thieving skills high enough to get through the game. More thievies are optional but not required to beat the game.

6. I suggested the Blacksheaf Family Amulet item which is listed on the first page. +20% to Experience gained with a -3 penalty to all saves vs. Death and Breath. This will make progression a little slower than a 2 class Multiclass, but faster than a regular triple class. I don't think this is necessary honestly, but I suggest it as an item to remove hesitation from you and others to try the NPC.

7. Fighter/Mage/Thief can cheese just as well or better as a Mage,Thief, or Mage/Thief. Wait until 6th level spells are available and cast Mislead in a corner. Walk up to enemies and backstab repeatedly Or, don't wait. Buy Vhailior's Helm and your 1/day free Simulacrum to use free item quickslots to cast Wish, TimeStop, Mislead etc. If you can cast Project Image or Simulacrum, you don't really need 9th level spels, you just cast 9th level spells via duplicated scrolls for free!

Other Reasons

8. Erevain being part thief, gives players more options. When starting NeJ, there is no available Thief besides Imoen. Imoen herself has stagnant thieving skills that won't improve anymore. It's not until you beat the Severed Hand that you can go back to Athkatla and pick up another Thief. That is a lot of time to not have another NPC thief option. Erevain

9. Erevain being a Mage, gives players more options. There is no Mage available to use when starting NeJ other than Imoen. If players want a different Mage than Imoen (or if she gets near-death and runs away), they don't have a choice. Again, it's a long time until beating the Severed Hand that players have the ability to get a different Mage.

10. Erevain's banters and dialogue so far are written with him being a Fighter/Mage/Infiltrator (Thief). For this reason and for 7 & 8 above, I think it's best that we continue with this direction. You can see this post where I hint at my desire to have mod options in the future that would allow different Erevain classes during installation. I'd have to rewrite dialogues and banters to make this happen and voice different lines for selection and action. This is a somewhat big task that I feel is best left for future mod versions.

11. The Infiltrator Kit originally comes from the 2nd edition AD&D Book: The Complete Book of Elves. What is the Infiltrator Kit? Well, it's an Elven Fighter/Mage/Thief Kit! What did the original IWD Erevain do? He snuck in and Infiltrated Dragon's Eye. Fighter/Mage/Thief is both an appropriate nod to 2nd edition Dungeons and Dragons (which Baldur's Gate is based heavily on) and to what Erevain actually did ingame.

12. There's no NPC Fighter/Mage/Thief. There has been multiple Fighters,Mages, Thievies, Mage/Thieves, and mod NPC Fighter/Mages. There are no mod NPC Fighter/Mage/Thieves that I am aware of. This adds additional uniqueness to Erevain.


Conclusion: For the reasons above and possibly others that I can further elaborate on, I ask that you trust me on Erevain being a Fighter/Mage/Thief and that we give it a try.

This post has been edited by Bill Bisco: Nov 11 2016, 09:50 AM

[Bill Bisco]

Hi Vlad,

I am open to your ideas, but I don't understand your suggestion on the Kit above. This was my original suggestion and is reflected in the coding above

INFILTRATOR: The Infiltrator is the master of stealth and mastering unknown places: urban or wilderness. These rogues use their magical abilities to supplement their thieving skills at the price of reduced progress in those thieving skills.

Advantages:
- Access to several innate abilities, which grow in frequency and availability as levels advance:
1. Luck ( 2 uses at level 2)
2. Non-Detection (2 uses at level 3)
3. Knock (2 uses at level 4, 1 additional use at levels 7,10,16,22,28,34,40)
4. Invisibility (2 uses at level 5)
5. Find Traps (2 uses at level 6, 1 additional use at levels 12,18,24,30,36,42)
6. Dimension Door (at level 11,17,23,29,35,41)
7. Improved Invisibility (at level 8)
8. Farsight (at level 9,15,21,27,33,39)
9. True Sight (at level 13, 19, 25, 31, 37,43)
10. Mass Invisibility (at level 14,20,26,32,38,41)

Disadvantages:
- Gets only 15 points to distribute thieving points per level.

The way this is designed is that Erevain will gain 1 Innate ability with every Thief Level. I think this is plenty powerful already and don't want to go ever further and give multiple innate abilities each level. I think the innate abilities should be strictly Thief-Related in some way. Stone Skin Spell Strike, and Spell Trap are cool, but hard for me to see them as very Thief-ish

I don't think Erevain needs or deserves any additional To Hit, Damage, or AC. Erevain is not a Swashbuckler. Increased Thac0, APR, and Weapon Specialization via Fighter should be enough.

How about this for stats? Cast Strength for 18/00 Strength right from the beginning. Drink a Potion of Insight when High Wisdom is actually needed.

Str: 18/50
Dex: 18
Con: 17
Int: 17
Wis: 10
Cha: 11

This post has been edited by Bill Bisco: Nov 11 2016, 10:06 AM

[Senka]

Imoen herself has stagnant thieving skills that won't improve anymore

You never see Imoen kit didn't you? She is NOT dual-mage anymore. She is charming rogue.
All your reasons are good for very short party. 2-3 members.

For the reasons above and possibly others that I can further elaborate on, I ask that you trust me on Erevain being a Fighter/Mage/Thief and that we give it a try.

I afraid he will die soon.

[Vlad]

Bill, it's okay. I'll make him in 2 versions: one for you - triple class, and one for us and those who want a more capable character.

With the existing NPCs in NeJ, he doesn't even need a bow

Yes, for fighter/thief, I'll give him a good bow and proficiency to replace Minsc in my current party.

The high level innate spells he starts getting at level 17-18, so no worries. It will happen only toward the end of SoA. Otherwise, the multiple innate spells will mimic his triple class regarding mage.

As a side note, Bill, you again bring numbers, numerical comparison. You simply don't know the problems of the IE engine. We just discussed with Senka that Yoshimo being dualled to a fighter from 10-th level thief, having str and con improved with items and heavy armour is easily beaten in combat event at his high levels.

[Senka]

I have the strong suspicion that the game remember your starting stats. So I use ctrl-8 during generation and then remove unnecessary

[Bill Bisco]

Hi Vlad,

If you want two Erevain versions at the outset, I'm ok with this as my long-term plan is to allow different Class options for Erevain anyway. However, I ask that you keep Fighter/Mage/Thief as the default with other Erevain classes as optional. I also ask that you keep my version of the Inflitrator kit (it's already coded) as the default with you modified one as optional. Just use this code and modify as appropriate to apply the Kit (Yours or mine) on the fly during mod installation. Using the below code should enable you to use the Assassin Op Code and still get 15 skill points per level as I intended.

/* This snippet shows how to use the kit number as a variable name to
* assign this kit to a creature. The "0" and the "0x4000" are necessary.
* These offsets should be the same for all CREs.
COPY ~mymod/fighter.cre~ ~override/fighter.cre~
WRITE_SHORT 0x244 0
WRITE_SHORT 0x246 0x4000 + ~%Infiltrator%~
*/

Regarding Advancement. Here's the SoA XP Cap:

Experience Point Cap: 2,950,000 XP

Maximum Level
Fighter/Thief: 13/16
Fighter/Mage/Thief: 11/12/14

For the same XP, a Fighter/Mage/Thief is 2 Fighter Levels behind and 2 Thief Levels behind in Exchange for 12 Mage Levels. A Fighter/Thief will have more HP than a Fighter/Mage/Thief, sure. However, a F/M/T can just cast Stoenskin (even multiple times). In most situations, this means that a F/M/T will have more effective HP than a F/T. Being able to cast Mirror Image and Blur also improve AC and reduce hits more than a F/T could get and also boost the F/M/T Hit Points effectively as well. This is discounting easy Mislead Cheese, Wand and Item use, and the versatility of the Mage Levels as well.

I've beaten Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 at least 6 times start to finish Vlad with a Fighter, Fighter/Thief, Fighter/Mage/Thief, Fighter/Cleric/Mage, and a Fighter/Druid. I know at least a little about the relative difference between playing a double and triple muticlass

2E D&D Dual-Classing is biased toward starting as a Fighter and then Dualing to something else. Fighter HPs max out at level 9 so a Level 9 Fighter with 18 CON could have 126 HP. Thieves HP Maxes out at level 10 so a Thief with 16 CON will only have 80 HP. In other words a Thief 10/ Fighter 11 wil have 83 HP. A Fighter 9 / Thief 10 will have 134 HP. There's not way to make up that 51 HP Difference any time soon.

A Fighter 9 /Thief 10 will have 30 more levels to gain 60 more HP. A Thief 10 / Fighter 11 (with the ToB Exp cap removed) will have 29 more levels will have 87 HP. Just 27 more HP by the very very lategame for a net of the Fighter9/Thief10 still having 24 more net hp.

Yoshimo's main benefits from dualling to Fighter come from Backstabbing with his eventual GrandMastered Melee weapon and waiting until at least level 24 to get the Use Any Item High Level ability. With this, Yoshimo could use Scrolls, wands, and restricted items and be a lot more powerful. A Bounty Hunter 24 / Fighter 25 Yoshimo with Stoneskin, Improved Haste, Cloudkill, and Summons, and does 5x Backstab damage is a lot more impressive than a Bounty Hunter 10 / Fighter 27 Yoshimo that doesn't have those things.


Oh, and I suggest Erevain start with 180K XP. This will let him cast level 4 spells off the bat and cast Stoneskin, extremely improving his lifespan.

[Senka]

A Bounty Hunter 24 / Fighter 25 Yoshimo

A Bounty Hunter 24 - 3,080,000
Fighter 25 - 4,250,000
7 330000
Really? )))))

[Bill Bisco]

Yes, that will take quite some time but is the most optimal (Versatility and Power-Wise) endgame purely for Yoshimo starting out as a Bounty Hunter. Note: Use Any Item stays with you even when you multiclass. So after Thief 24 -> Fighter, Cleric, or Mage 1, that class continues to be able to use any item even at level 1.

A more powerful option would be to mod Yoshimo to be a Fighter 13 that Dual-ed to Thief later. This would allow him the High HP, Grandmastery, and best APR available to Fighters and there would still be ample time to become Thief 14 and still enjoy a large portion of the game with both sets of powers.

This post has been edited by Bill Bisco: Nov 13 2016, 03:55 PM

[Bill Bisco]

I added some more interjections in 17.Xs the beginning of the game is more complete. Sorry for not accomplishing more; I am still having some personal issues, but am inspired to continue.

[Vlad]

Yes, during the installation, you'll be presented with an option to choose the dual or triple class combination including the infiltrator kit. I've already implemented this feature in the setup.

By the way, the XP cap is removed in the BDW.

[Senka]

Full party never reach 8 mln XP

[Vlad]

Bill, this is the max I can roll for him:

Str 16
Dex 18
Con 17
Int 17
Wis 11
Cha 10

Total: 89

This is final for the triple class.

[Bill Bisco]

Bill, this is the max I can roll for him:

Str 16
Dex 18
Con 17
Int 17
Wis 11
Cha 10

Total: 89

This is final for the triple class.

Vlad, why are you deviating from the stats I suggested above? Why do you need to "roll" this? 91 total is not an uncommon total to roll. I've gotten well into the 95s before to roll my Fighter/Mage/Clerics.

I think for playability it is very critical to have a minimum of 18/50 Str as discussed earlier.

[Vlad]

Ok, I'll tweak it in NI.