Suggestions for the coming release Options

[forthenature]

I’ve run through this game twice in the recent one and a half month. It is admirable that even I’ve played the mod so many times, it’s still attractive. I am very appreciate with the changes of the recent releases. I’m so glad that this mod is still under updating and I am quite looking forward for the next release. So here are my personal suggestions for it.
1.Relief the constraint on whether the protagonist is a necromancer.
The single factor that affects the difficulty and game experience of the mod most is whether the protagonist is a necromancer. I should admit that the adventure and item designed for necromancer is very fantastic and the battle with the Old Ones is one of my favourite. However, after so many tries I would like to start the game with other roles. Unfortunately, the game difficulty could be quite different, especially in the battle with the Great Wyrm. One way to do this is to make Memory of the Apprenti and Amulet of Hades available for all characters, or other wizard should have counter abilities against Greater Silence. As a trade off, necromancer should be nerfed. RVE is a bit too powerful for a necro that in late game you nearly need no other healing method.
2.Make cleric more powerful.
Just as I said, with RVE you nearly don’t need a healer in your party. And what makes things worse is that in the recent release druid over compete cleric from nearly all dimensions: stoneskin, new items and new kits, and more useful HLAs. So to maximize party fighting power, there is no room for a cleric. But cleric is one of my favourite role in the game(and also in other PRGs), so I would like it to be buffed in the next release. I think a single class cleric should be as the same attractive as Jaheira.
3.Make ranged weapons a choice.
Damage dealt by ranged weapons can be lower than melee weapons instead of no damage.
4.Make paladin more powerful.
Comparing to other warrior roles(ranger, barbarian, champion of arvoreen, risk breaker), paladin is far less attractive. It should be buffed a bit.
5.Nalia should be buffed
She should at least have access to the 9th level spells. And her first class and low wisdom make her not a good party member. But she is one of my favourite character.

These suggestions are ordered. And I do hope the first two to come true. I think they will be beneficial for further development of this mod.

[pekkae]

Completely agree on the Cleric. A pure cleric doesn't pack enough punch / have required skills to be a useful character in the game.

I cheated a bit & played a Swashbuckler/Cleric turned into a vampire, so she could use the "cloak of the daywalker" on my latest run. I upgraded the "holy symbol" - item that she received & she turned out to be very useful / diverse & powerful (while buffed) character, with those sort of minor changes.

Alternatively one could always make a ranger/cleric or a multiclass fighter/cleric. A multiclassed dwavern defender/cleric would also work nicely and be very powerful by the end of the game.

One tweak I would love to see for a cleric is a tweak for "disrupt undead" spell so that the cleric's version would have a range. As it is right now, it isn't that useful because you can't protect the cleric from hits so it always gets interrupted.



This post has been edited by pekkae: Jun 8 2021, 08:55 AM

[critto]

All of these are good suggestions and have been talked about a lot in the past, including internally within the development team (or what's left of it, in any case). I doubt any of the suggested changes will see the light of day in v7 because many of them are quite challenging and therefore postpone the release for a couple more years.

Except for Nalia, maybe. Since when she does not have access to 9th level spells?

[forthenature]

Nalia's intelligence is 17 so she cannot memorize 9th level spells.

[critto]

I don't remember this being an issue in the past. Is this something recent?

[forthenature]

I'm not sure. In original game, Nalia's intelligence is 17, wisdom is 9 and is level 4 thief turn to mage.
I don't know whether this mod has modified anything about her. But it turned out to do nothing in my computer.

[pekkae]

I don't remember this being an issue in the past. Is this something recent?

Not recent. Mages are able to cast 9th level spells only with an int of 18. (should probably be for sorceror's as welli)

In vanilla, the only npc mage who is without buffs able to cast 9th level spells is Edwin.

This post has been edited by pekkae: Jun 9 2021, 06:45 AM

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[critto]

I wonder why I don't remember this. I've had Nalia in my play-throughs in the past. Granted, this was about 10 years ago but I still don't recall having an issue. I've probably used the Lum machine to give her a point in intelligence.

[lroumen]

It might be an EE thing. I do not recall this being an issue in vanilla bg2-tob

[bulian]

@OP - you may want to check out IATweaks, which offers the ability to relax forging constraints as an option. So you could have a vagrant PC with a necromancer companion (or not) and forge the mage robe and amulet if desired.

[SparrowJacek]

1.Relief the constraint on whether the protagonist is a necromancer.

As bulian mentioned - it's already an optional content of IATweaks

2.Make cleric more powerful.

Sure, something should definitely be done to Clerics in general, same thing with Bards and Thieves. Sadly our time and abilities are scarce at the moment. At some point we should tackle all of those issues, one by one most probably, as each needs a lot of testing and thinking. But you're right - single class clerics should see some love, that's for sure.

3.Make ranged weapons a choice.

I actually had an idea which critto realli liked, an idea which would bring those items to the game, but without cheesing like running in circles with 1 character, while the others send thousands of bolts at the enemy. It might be a bit clumsy and it will require A TON of testing to get it right, but we might find enough time and strength to address this issue.

4.Make paladin more powerful.

Some slight improvements might be introduced though Undead Hunter and Inquisitor are really potent at the moment. + in v7 Keldorn (he can be either of those kits thanks to IAtweaks) will have a far better item upgrade.

5.Nalia should be buffed

If she can't learn/cast 9th level spells then this should be addressed immediately for all her character files, thanks for pointing that out!

[pekkae]

After trudging along with a cleric for some time, here's a few ideas to make the cleric usable & fun character.

As resources are thin, I don't think these changes are that big (though of course I can't tell, as I've never one changes to the game outcounting some basic changes)

- revert AoF back to the way it works in the original game for a cleric ("improved armor of faith")
- make the high level cleric spells (false dawn, bolt of glory, sunray etc.) work against undead introduced by IA (so skeleton lords etc.). Cleric should really shine against the undead.
- give the class an item (I'd use the silver dragon plate graphics for example), say AC -2, +15 fire & magic dmg resistance,
- Can be upgraded with the cleric's holy symbol (they get at level 24(?)), AC -3, -25 fire & magic damage resistance, extra 6th & 7th level spell, -1 casting time, +1 caster level, +2 wis
- Gains natural restoral HLA

(possibly)
- Can use grandmaster of flowers

^ This way it's usable as a tank in a few fights, as it sort of should be. It can heal, as this char is supposed to be the best healer in the game. It can also wreak havoc against the undead. It can also dispel, without reaching Inquisitor levels, because of fast level gains and the +1 caster level.

[SparrowJacek]

Thank you for your suggestions pekkae! I've been trying to find a way to make pure clerics more powerful and distinct and I got like 15 ideas written in my notebook. Some are minor, some are major and some are brand new to IA, using mechanics never before seen in this mod.

I plan to apply those changes to my local game and make a full playthrough, just to see how useful such stuff will be. I really hope that playing a single class cleric will be fun in IA. I will also be making some changes to another neglected class/kit, wanting to give players more choices as to what party composition they will go with in their future runs! But let the specifics of that be a secret for the time being.

In general, I am not that skilled in modding and critto is the lead modder of IA now, so every decision and every new version will have to be approved by him first and sadly he his time to work on the mod is really scarce lately, so I can't promise any dates. But I wrote all this to reassure you, that we are still here and still have many new and (hopefully!) fun ideas

[pekkae]

Thank you for your suggestions pekkae! I've been trying to find a way to make pure clerics more powerful and distinct and I got like 15 ideas written in my notebook. Some are minor, some are major and some are brand new to IA, using mechanics never before seen in this mod.

I plan to apply those changes to my local game and make a full playthrough, just to see how useful such stuff will be. I really hope that playing a single class cleric will be fun in IA. I will also be making some changes to another neglected class/kit, wanting to give players more choices as to what party composition they will go with in their future runs! But let the specifics of that be a secret for the time being.

In general, I am not that skilled in modding and critto is the lead modder of IA now, so every decision and every new version will have to be approved by him first and sadly he his time to work on the mod is really scarce lately, so I can't promise any dates. But I wrote all this to reassure you, that we are still here and still have many new and (hopefully!) fun ideas

Sounds great! Cleric is sort of neglected so it would be nice to see the class improved.

If I can suggest, I would also like to see a few more powerful belts & generic amulets in the game. Also a Cleric specific belt would be nice.

And thanks for the great mod! I've enjoyed it very much!

[bulian]

Feel free to suggest stats and crafting components for the items you think would be additive to the mod.

[pekkae]

Here's a few ideas. The areas where the mod is lagging diversity is bracers + amulets + blunt weapons. So ...

1. Make Flail of Ages upgradeable to the +4 version with the poison head from WK level 2 by Cromwell. This would give another good +4 weapon (with minimal modding work I assume?), since phosphorous is quite expensive in terms of permanency scrolls and you really don't have any other option if you are proficient in a flail.

2. Maces are quite overlooked at the moment, adding a single +4 mace would be a very welcome addition. Maybe make the mace of disruption upgradeable to a +4 (/+5) weapon? So ... Mace of disruption + Jerrod's Mace => Mace of disruption +4 (+ 3 extra thac0 / damage against demons and the original qualities of the mace of disruption)

3. A few other suggestions to compliment the current set:

Belt of Speed
Grants haste
Drop at wk level 2 or so

Tymora's Gift (belt)
+10Magic Resistance
+3 to Luck
Drow merchants in underdark

Belt of Missile Supremacy
-4 against missiles
+10 resistance to missile damage
- 5 to charisma
Ox-tail belt
Orc leather
30000GP

Belt of the Divine
+1 Strength
+ Wearer is under Bless & Protection from evil
*For Clerics/ Paladins
Girdle of Stone Giant Strength
Scroll of Bless
permanency scroll
30000 GP

Belt of Master Swordsman
+2 Thac0 with offhand
Drop at chapter 3 or 4

Amber shield (Amulet)
+ 1 AC
+ 10 HP
+ 1 Saves
+ 40% resistance against electricity
a chunk of amber
amulet of protection +1
2 potions of fortitude
permanency scroll
25000gp

Amulet of Ilmater
+2 to saves
+1 AC
Periapt of life protection
amulet of spell warding
necklace of form stability
Amulet of Protection +1
25.000GP

Improved Amulet of Ilmater
+3 to Saves
+1 AC
+10 Magic Resistance
Amulet of Ilmater
amulet of seldarine
25.000 GP

protector +2
+2 Saves
+2 AC
two amulets of protection +1
20.000 gp

True Protector +2
+2 Saves
+2 AC
+20 HP
* must be neutrally aligned
Protector +2
5 potions of fortitude
permanency scroll
100.000GP

Supreme Bracers
AC1
Bracers of defence ac 3
Bracers of defence ac 4
Bracers of defence ac 5
50.000GP


This post has been edited by pekkae: May 26 2022, 07:14 AM

[Ralmevic]

I think you can already forge Flail of the Ages +4 with poison in the De Arnise Keep

[pekkae]

I think you can already forge Flail of the Ages +4 with poison in the De Arnise Keep

That's right, you can.

rraaaagggghhhh....

[pekkae]

I've been tinkering with a cleric for a little bit. As I don't want Cernd for a run (once you've played with the maxed out -5 Cernd, anything else just doesn't feel that right).

The focus would be to make an effective (divine) spellcaster, that can also dish out damage in H2H.

This is where it currently is, using Priest of Lathander as a template. I think this could work, without being OP.

+ Gets Boon of Lathander every 5 levels
+ Gets -1 casting time at level 14
+ Gets +2 divine caster levels at level 14
+ Gets to use the "blessed bracers" (so Blessed bracers would be for Clerics & Paladins)
+ Can use Might of the Avariel (without the increase in caster levels - as it doesn't increase caster levels although I think it is supposed to). So just spell slot bonuses + increase in HP's.

- Doesnt' receive "hold undead"
- Gets -1 to STR, DEX, CON

The idea would be to Dual-Class her into a mage at level 14/15. Then give her Drow Chain. With Foreknowledge she could reach -3, which means great instant buffs under IA as well as the ability to drop a lot of damage dealing low level arcane & divine spells. Also, with Boon of Lathander + Blessed Bracers + Buffs she can reach -10Thaco with 5APR. And because of the Mage protections, she can be used as a tank as well. Very versatile, very useful.

EDIT:

And ofcourse that character can be played as a pure cleric. As it can use Staves for reach & with combat buffs should be able to reach -24...-28 effective AC in mid-point. A full cleric with Thac0 of -15 and 5APR's should be very useful.

This post has been edited by pekkae: Oct 1 2022, 10:19 AM

[ed boy]

I feel that a major problem with clerics is that things they should be best at are done better by other classes. For instance, buffing is traditionally part of the Cleric class identity, but the best buff spells in the game are all arcane.

Adding spells to make clerics stronger is tricky - mage spells can be gated by limited scroll availability whereas cleric spells cannot. Unless there is a way to add cleric spells known by script, this makes giving late game cleric spells tricky without upsetting early to mid game balance.

The availability of Alacrity for Auramasters is a large part of what makes them outshine clerics so much. I would be hesitant to straight up give it to clerics without any hoops to jump through, but I feel like they need access to it to some degree (I also feel like it shouldn't be so easily given to Auramasters or Mages, but that's probably a separate conversation).

Some things that could be done to give cleric a better class identity and give a reason to include a cleric over something like a druid:

• Change Giant Strength (any maybe other buff spells) from a mage spell to a cleric spell
• Add a self-buff that increases APR (similar to Boon of Lathander, but not limited to a kit)
• New, stronger anti-undead or anti-outsider spells that are unique to clerics
• Cleric-unique ways of debuffing an enemy's elemental damage weakness (setting to exactly 90% resistance would open up a lot of strategies without opening up abuse by being stackable)
• Cleric-unique ways of buffing party members (eg +10% resistance to a damage type)
• New cleric ability/buff: Upon striking an enemy, gain alacrity and/or improved casting speed for 3 seconds
• New wish/RVE style spell with weaker initial choices, but more powerful options being unlocked as the game progresses/major enemies are defeated
• Pitre-style spells/abilities where other party members are protected but the cleric is made vulnerable and prioritized by enemies

I'm not suggesting all of these, but I feel that some combination of them could be used to give clerics a power level similar to other classes without making them feel too similar to the other classes.