The dreaded G3 Fixpack Options

[Baronius]

Caedwyr:

Of course the question was directed to Sikret, I don't want to answer instead of him. I can only answer from my viewpoint: it's a quick treatment of the symptoms, to make the alignments re-fixed in IA. Although it's a lot of alignments to check and change (even if we keep the "reasonable" ones), let's assume Sikret does it. But what about the many other similar things? As you see, all other changed content (such as the consumed keys case where you agree with me) may cause unpredictible effects for other mods, due to the possible dependencies. Or are Consumed Keys and Alignment Changes the only "fixes" that affect non-buggy elements, and thus may break future mods? (Additional question: if the approach doesn't change, who guarantees that G3FP main developers don't add more such components as Consumed Keys? These directly remove elements that may be used by other mods! How can the G3 FP be supported if we are unsure about future? More accurately, quite sure, unfortunately. The more removed interfaces and changed original elements, the higher risk to break mods.)

The point is, Irenicus as a Chaotic Good may look weird, but as we can see, other changes are not so unambigious. The conclusion is, a modder who fixes a game in a standard fixpack should add problematic cases to optional components, because it's not his/her right to decide who should have what alignment. (Optional components are still inadequate though, especially without proper warnings. A different file is needed.) The Irenicus case may be reasonable, but what about the others? "Reasonable" means something slightly different for everyone, in each particular case. (See Blucher's thoughts with the Majordomo.) A person who fixes can fix a broken item, a buggy 0gp price, but it may not apply quasi-fixes in CORE components!

[Caedwyr]

You misunderstand me. From what Sikret wrote, I take it that certain scripts rely on certain NPCs having a specific alignment, and that if any of them are changed it will cause the scripts to perform suboptimally. I've seen at least 4 mods that change alignments, and I can see future modders also making alignment changes. Hence, if you want to ensure your mod won't run into problems, just be sure to make the necessary fixes. If you want to look at the list that Fixpack specifically changes and the reasoning behind each of the changes, then http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=8485 is the place to start. However, if you are worried about specific NPCs, then just be sure to set each NPC to the alignment you need to make the scripts function as best as possible.

The conclusion is, a modder who fixes a game in a standard fixpack should add problematic cases to optional components, because it's not his/her right to decide who should have what alignment

Done: Iffy alignment changes added to and optional but cool component see - http://www.gibberlings3.net/bg2fixpack/docs_obc.php for more details

And as always further discussion on components and decisions is appreciated. http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=8485 is where to start for any discussion on alignment changes.

And, if you don't like a particular component you can always not install it by following the instructions in the I *HATE* this fix!, and what I can do about it. thread. This is very similar to Baldurdash's option to install each fix separately rather than as the entire package, though updated for a weidu installer. The code is well commented and should be easy to find and comment out the component you don't want.

As for the keys being consumed, you've got a decent point in that these should be in an optional-but-cool component, from my perspective. Perhaps we can have further rational discussion on this matter.


And for a bit of humor, I still think that Irenicus shouldn't have an ogre sound-set in the final SoA battle. "Me crush you to goo!" isn't exactly what I was expecting as a taunt from Jon at the climax of the game.

This post has been edited by Caedwyr: Jul 30 2007, 06:23 PM

[berelinde]

I was just about to post the I *HATE* this fix!, but you beat me to it. Had it typed anyway, so take two, they're small.

[Baronius]

Done: Iffy alignment changes added to and optional but cool component

You still don't get it. ALL such changes should be a in a different component. If a modder requires their original version, why is he or she forced to change them on his/her own? If someone develops a big mod, is he/she forced to install FP and check its docs, or add 222 commands to revert original game versions?

There are no such things as "iffy" changes! Because a change is iffy to somebody, and not iffy to someone else, and vice versa in case of another change. Is everyone who would like to use the original game version forced to come to the fixpack forum, and tell his or her justifications?

I *HATE* this fix!

No thanks. As I've said, I refuse to accept a thread which spreads false information and tries to wash modders brain by implying that the lack of G3 fixpack would cause serious crashes; a thread which expects modders to edit out the fixes of the CORE component of a FIXPACK and if they have no possibility or ability to get familiar with programming, they're cynically asked to buggeroff.

[luan]

It is reasonable to expect modders to ensure compatibility with the original game. It is unreasonable to expect modders to ensure compatibility with every other mod out there. Especially if other said mods subjectively alter the original game(regardless of good intent), it is reasonable to expect cohesion to be lost.

[Baronius]

It is reasonable to expect modders to ensure compatibility with the original game.

Exactly. FP creators could say: but fixpack's core component fixes BUGS, so the modder doesn't have to, and a more seamless "surface" awaits his/her mod. Really nice, but this applies to bugs such as broken items & spells and explicitly incorrect things, and not to changes on (otherwise non-buggy) elements such as consumed items, replaced alignments etc. Here is the problem: some of the ambigious novelties (such as alignment changes) are judged differently by each modder and player. Expecting all modders to come to the fixpack forum to tell their doubts (without the guarantee of any change) OR expecting them to read the thousands of lines of the FP core component documentation and THEN *learning* how to negate those with their mod, is this fair? Remember, we're talking of the mandatory core component.

Luan's very good post inspired me to write a nice very short summary: G3FP main developers who decide what goes to the core component go too far by overriding such original game elements that are not explicit, harmful bugs, and add them to the mandatory core component. In other words, based on what luan said: they override the compatibility of the original game, dictating *new* conditions to modders. Overriding the *original* conditions dictated/offered by the *original* game. What if 75% of players agree with a subjective FP change? The other 25 does not. As a general guideline in many areas of life: let's respect the minority, if the result is indifferent, neutral for the majority.

[Sikret]

If the effect of alignments is significant enough to make a mod that changes as one of the components (possibly among others) them incompatible, then wouldn't it be better to manually set the alignments of the NPCs that you want to be set a certain way, and then you won't have to worry about the scripts not working correctly?

No, it's not reasonable. As I have said before, I don't presume that players have installed a mod which has changed things in a bad way; and hence, I won't code to make my mod compatible with such mods. If a creature has alignment x in the vanilla game, why should I add an unnecessary command (consequently an unnecessary and redundant file in the players' override folder) to assigning the very same alignment (i.e. alignment x) to that creature again? (also read luan's post.)

Moreover, they are many creatures. It's absurd to expect me to add hundreds of lines to my mod just to make it compatible with another mod which has other problems as well. Not to mentione that I'm sure that all of the serious and true players of IA (i.e. those who actually play the mod rather than just spending time in the forum) do install Baldurdash fixpack and avoid BG2 fixpack and they don't need any such compatibility measurements with a mod which they never install.

Otherwise, you end up with a situation where Holy Smite doesn't work on Irenicus in the final battle, because he's still using the Elminster template and is a chaotic good human.

Not necessarily. I have changed some people's alignment to "evil" in IA. IA is not a fixpack and can tweak creatures' alignments for its needs. The Holy Smite thing on Irenicus is of course pointless here as Irenicus is improved by IA and is so powerful that Holy Smite is a joke for him regardless of his alignment.

And for a bit of humor, I still think that Irenicus shouldn't have an ogre sound-set in the final SoA battle. "Me crush you to goo!" isn't exactly what I was expecting as a taunt from Jon at the climax of the game.

His sound-set is changed in Improved Anvil.

PS: As a side note, isn't it meaningful that all of the defenders of BG2 Fixpack here, just pretend that they don't see my posts about BG2 fixpackers not testing their mod properly before releasing it? (when something has no answer people prefer to pretend that they don't see it instead of being honest and write: "Sikret, you are right in regard to this point (at least)."

This post has been edited by Sikret: Jul 31 2007, 07:18 AM

[Sikret]

One more point which is worth mentioning is that putting the subjective tweaks of the BG2 fixpack into one or more "optional" components will not change the fact that they are "tweaks" (rather than fixes). So, the entire discussion over having those components as optional doesn't have much significance to me. In other words, making them optional will not change tweaks to fixes; they will only turn to be optional tweaks (rather than mandatory tweaks). BG2 fixpack is actually a tweakpack (which pretends to be a fixpack) regardless of whether those tweaks are optional or not.

[Januszka]

Not my business, but who cares anyway? If you dont like a mod then dont play it, if you cant use a mod when you have another one installed then do a multiple install.
I do not see any need of arguing about what is a fix or a tweak or whatever. I dont think players care.
What I still dont see is why we're talkin about this here, shouldn't it be more appropiate to talk about FP in FP's forum? Maybe Im wrong since I didnt read the whole topic (too long, Im lazy and Im at work counting back hours cause Im leaving on holidays). And still, not my business Im not a modder (nor even player, I just translate).
I just don't see why anyone has to say if this mod this or this mod that. Use it, and if you don't like it, ok, just uninstall it or use another one. This goes for both parts.
Spare me

[Sikret]

Not my business, but who cares anyway? If you dont like a mod then dont play it, if you cant use a mod when you have another one installed then do a multiple install.

I fully agree with you, Jan!

And as I wrote before, those who truly play IA (rather than just talking in the forum) do actually follow the mod's installation instructions.

This thread began with a question from a player and I replied to him (only to him because he is a player of IA), but some other people (who mostly have never played IA and will most probably never play it in the future) just hijacked this topic.

[Sikret]

I opened the topic again temporarily just to make an important remark. Caedwyr wrote:

Otherwise, you end up with a situation where Holy Smite doesn't work on Irenicus in the final battle, because he's still using the Elminster template and is a chaotic good human.

This example has been repeated by defenders of BG2 fixpack countless times (as an advantage over Baldurdash fixpack) and it seems to be their best example. The interesting thing, however, is that this example has all along been a false claim. Irenicus at tree of life battle has always been "Neutral Evil" even in a vanilla game plus BD fixpack installation!

One of Irenicus's other files is flagged as chaotic good, but you never confront that particular creature in any battle in the game.

This post has been edited by Sikret: Aug 5 2007, 12:24 PM