Old One fight using cheese and exploit, Topic split from the Journal of 4 mages... Options

[Krell]

Well, that party composition doesn't seem like a weak one or anything, it could probably even manage to run a successful Ironman insane no-reload. A Necro + 2 Riskbreakers by themselves are a force big enough to defeat any foe. For example an in-game NPC party (no pre-generated characters except for PC) would have one hell of a tough time in an Ironman insane run.

As for protection vs Imprisonment, carefully timing your Mass Invisibility casting with all your mages (and I think they all should have it, sorceress included) will protect your two Riskbreakers by making them invisible right after enemy's True Sight kicks in for the current round.

But it's an impressive run nonetheless, despite reloading and all, good job.

EDIT: As a side note, I just read the article on the 'Story of the Old One' battle. And despite the tactic seems sound, there is a much better and easier way to win that fight, even without relying on the Old One at all. Surely, he will steal a kill or even two with his Improved Disrupt Undead, but even if he wasn't there, a solo Necro can still defeat the3 Grave Liches in 100 out of 100 attempts. 19 out of 20 is too risky for an Ironman run IMHO.

This post has been edited by Krell: Apr 23 2013, 03:03 PM

[nicoper]

@krell:
Hi, once again, I don't mind if you enjoy your game playing it as you do (and why should I mind, after all it is a game and we are all grown up adults for a vast majority I presume ), but maybe you should start a specific thread with your hints, clues and so because it could be very confusing for people who read this thread to have views from two completly different ways to handle IA (my journal and comments are irrelevant if someone plays as you do, same can be said if someone tries the game as I did and refers to your advices).
That said, it's all right with me to share with you different game experience, I welcome your comments and don't want at all to cast you out of this thread .

Side note, you mention things (gold/xp exploits for example) that are clearly not the mod designer (Sikret) cup of tea and add you won't reveal them. It could be (misleadingly I am sure it is not your intent ) taken as some kind of provocation.

I don't mind people using them, I don't mind exploit existing in the game. Either you think they should be removed and ask Sikret for that (will increase insane no-reload challenge ) or you say they exist and where for those who like them and ask Sikret to leave them as they are. Confess I don't see the point of saying "those exploits exist but I won't say where" (If only because if I was a player who wants to know about those, I would just be frustrated you say they exist but don't reveal them).

Question about old one fight; I had at first a nightmarish experience because I was showered with stellar gravestone, PW stun. Once I found out a way to handle it (not what you would qualify as a no-reload, but let's say that now I win it without reload 80% (which is all right for me ) one of my main objective is to finish each grave lich as fast as possible one after the other. As I understood your clues, it seems fight lasts a long for your Necro. Even with a Necro titanic spellbook, how do you manage that?
Another interrogation is about your level 7 and level 8 spell pick (I had dilemna at the time balancing number of RRoR, spell turning and DU ), could be interesting to compare if we have some common or very different picks (according to our respective ways to play )
(I usually opt for 6 RRoR and 3 ST at level 7, Foreknowledge, Prot from energy, 3 pierce shiel and 2 MS VI, of course I am much lower level so less slots than you)

[Krell]

@krell:
Hi, once again, I don't mind if you enjoy your game playing it as you do (and why should I mind, after all it is a game and we are all grown up adults for a vast majority I presume ), but maybe you should start a specific thread with your hints, clues and so because it could be very confusing for people who read this thread to have views from two completly different ways to handle IA (my journal and comments are irrelevant if someone plays as you do, same can be said if someone tries the game as I did and refers to your advices).
That said, it's all right with me to share with you different game experience, I welcome your comments and don't want at all to cast you out of this thread .

Yeah, I could, that's why asked for Sikret's approval to actually post links to YouTube videos here, however I saw that's not welcome and I respect that. My posts above won't even contain that much info (about an xp exploit still present) if actually Sikret didn't state that in the original mod it's much more different than in the Beta version I had so far. Since much more people have played that Beta version instead of the original v6 so far, I just wanted to state clearly that there aren't that many differences so far, at least about certain exploits or tactics.

Side note, you mention things (gold/xp exploits for example) that are clearly not the mod designer (Sikret) cup of tea and add you won't reveal them. It could be (misleadingly I am sure it is not your intent ) taken as some kind of provocation.

I don't mind people using them, I don't mind exploit existing in the game. Either you think they should be removed and ask Sikret for that (will increase insane no-reload challenge ) or you say they exist and where for those who like them and ask Sikret to leave them as they are. Confess I don't see the point of saying "those exploits exist but I won't say where" (If only because if I was a player who wants to know about those, I would just be frustrated you say they exist but don't reveal them).

I don't mind people using them, I don't mind exploit existing in the game. Emphasizing on that sentence. I personally think it's better if they're in the game. It's up to anybody's choice whether to use them or not. I personally don't think they should be closed for good - and I know that once info about them is in Sikret's hands, they will be. Actually it's not me that found about these, there's a guy in Facebook that gave me the info. He even said there are more exploits available later in the game.

Question about old one fight; I had at first a nightmarish experience because I was showered with stellar gravestone, PW stun. Once I found out a way to handle it (not what you would qualify as a no-reload, but let's say that now I win it without reload 80% (which is all right for me wink.gif ) one of my main objective is to finish each grave lich as fast as possible one after the other. As I understood your clues, it seems fight lasts a long for your Necro. Even with a Necro titanic spellbook, how do you manage that?
Another interrogation is about your level 7 and level 8 spell pick (I had dilemna at the time balancing number of RRoR, spell turning and DU tongue.gif ), could be interesting to compare if we have some common or very different picks (according to our respective ways to play biggrin.gif )
(I usually opt for 6 RRoR and 3 ST at level 7, Foreknowledge, Prot from energy, 3 pierce shiel and 2 MS VI, of course I am much lower level so less slots than you)

You're just giving those liches too much time to act. The fight for my Necro isn't very short either, but I doubt it's longer than 15 rounds, I am even thinking it ends in less than 10 - have to check again on that. Even with your Remove Magic not working against the liches and a bit fewer spell slots , you still can duplicate that fight. 7th level slots should be six RRR and the remaining Spell Turning, Pierce Shield may be good but I prefer 3 Pierce Magic instead (shorter casting time), or maybe both combined just in case. Elite Trolls are actually more resilient to triple ADHW CC than a Planetar.

Of course you'll be showered with Stellar Gravestones if you're not running ProFire + Stoneskin. And of course you won't be able to protect these from being Breached if you're running Spell Immunity Necromancy instead of Abjuration. And of course you won't be able to cast spells if you're not running Spell Turning for protection vs Larloch's Interrupter. Foreknowledge is usually loaded in my CC, I don't need any more, but still those 8-lvl slots are abundant. Protection from Energy also comes from that CC. Of course, your tactic makes your character extremely vulnerable to multiple Breaches, that's why you have to keep spare protection spells, while in my case I have much more free slots. Still, be it 2 Elite Trolls or 3 doesn't really matter that much - you can always enlist the aid of a Greater Djinni, Noble Spider or Skeleton Lord. Number of trolls on the battlefield matters only if you're able to dispel enemy's PFMW each round.
My own picks are 6 RRR, 4 Spell Turning (one additional in CC), and the other 2 are optional. 2 Disrupt Undead will do very little damage to any Grave Lich anyway, so if you have extra slots, invest in more Spell Turning. Then again, I never used more than 2 Spell Turnings in that fight, but that's for 36 lvl Necromancer - my guess is that a 25th lvl would need at least 5. Lvl 8 - 6 Monster Summoning VI - other are optional. Actually I never managed to summon more than 4 trolls for the entire fight, so maybe 6 is overdoing it a bit. Lvl 6 - 1 GoI (never cast it), 1 Improved Haste (wasted - better original haste for a 25 lvl mage), 4-6 ProMW (never used more than 4), 3 Pierce Magic (that's for a 25 lvl mage).

You may also win another round if you take off your Amulet of Hades for a sec, this way the liches will target your mage with Grave Silence all at once. Re-equip it to negate that.

PW: Stun... No lich would attempt that if your Necro is under Spell Turning, or even if that's temporarily removed by RRR, PC should still have enough hit points (above 90). You should equip PC with all available hp-increasing items like the Green (or Indigo) Ioun Stone and the Girdle of Lordly Might, and avoid taking any damage. Another counter for that should be a Free Action potion - I don't think that potion effect is removed by Breach, will check again on that. Of course, it's removed by Remove Magic.

Edit: Forgot to mention another way to increase your HP total significantly. Memorize 7+ Vampiric Touch spells (the more you can, the better). Drop an item on the ground and with active Improved Alacrity, cast multiple Vampiric Touches on that item. This will give you enormous hp boost. But I think that VT effect is dispellable, so again, you have to be under SI:Abjuration for this to work.

This post has been edited by Krell: Apr 25 2013, 11:03 AM

[nicoper]

You're just giving those liches too much time to act. The fight for my Necro isn't very short either, but I doubt it's longer than 15 rounds, I am even thinking it ends in less than 10 - have to check again on that. Even with your Remove Magic not working against the liches and a bit fewer spell slots , you still can duplicate that fight. 7th level slots should be six RRR and the remaining Spell Turning, Pierce Shield may be good but I prefer 3 Pierce Magic instead (shorter casting time), or maybe both combined just in case. Elite Trolls are actually more resilient to triple ADHW CC than a Planetar.

Of course you'll be showered with Stellar Gravestones if you're not running ProFire + Stoneskin. And of course you won't be able to protect these from being Breached if you're running Spell Immunity Necromancy instead of Abjuration. And of course you won't be able to cast spells if you're not running Spell Turning for protection vs Larloch's Interrupter. Foreknowledge is usually loaded in my CC, I don't need any more, but still those 8-lvl slots are abundant. Protection from Energy also comes from that CC. Of course, your tactic makes your character extremely vulnerable to multiple Breaches, that's why you have to keep spare protection spells, while in my case I have much more free slots. Still, be it 2 Elite Trolls or 3 doesn't really matter that much - you can always enlist the aid of a Greater Djinni, Noble Spider or Skeleton Lord. Number of trolls on the battlefield matters only if you're able to dispel enemy's PFMW each round.
My own picks are 6 RRR, 4 Spell Turning (one additional in CC), and the other 2 are optional. 2 Disrupt Undead will do very little damage to any Grave Lich anyway, so if you have extra slots, invest in more Spell Turning. Then again, I never used more than 2 Spell Turnings in that fight, but that's for 36 lvl Necromancer - my guess is that a 25th lvl would need at least 5. Lvl 8 - 6 Monster Summoning VI - other are optional. Actually I never managed to summon more than 4 trolls for the entire fight, so maybe 6 is overdoing it a bit. Lvl 6 - 1 GoI (never cast it), 1 Improved Haste (wasted - better original haste for a 25 lvl mage), 4-6 ProMW (never used more than 4), 3 Pierce Magic (that's for a 25 lvl mage).

You may also win another round if you take off your Amulet of Hades for a sec, this way the liches will target your mage with Grave Silence all at once. Re-equip it to negate that.

PW: Stun... No lich would attempt that if your Necro is under Spell Turning, or even if that's temporarily removed by RRR, PC should still have enough hit points (above 90). You should equip PC with all available hp-increasing items like the Green (or Indigo) Ioun Stone and the Girdle of Lordly Might, and avoid taking any damage. Another counter for that should be a Free Action potion - I don't think that potion effect is removed by Breach, will check again on that. Of course, it's removed by Remove Magic.

I usually do not cast MS VI, free action protects from PW stun (IIRC removed by breach), problem with limit of 90hp is that one turn of tide in fight and Necro can take damage from Stellar, ADHW, trigger 3*CL...and be brought under 90 hp limit.

Last times (5) I was fighting with old one I usually have a level 20-21 Necro here, so another universe than a level 36 one...(btw level 36 Necro I just achieved once with a 4 member party, and it was just before EDE)

In fact I am very interested if you have patience to write a detailled account of your fight because I am sure missing something here and I confess that since you said it is possible for Necro to win this fight without help from the old ones, I would like to try it (even killing 2 graves with Necro alone I cannot achieve I confess , my best has been killing one grave without any help from old one or having death blow on all three, so very far from your achievement ) you teased me into this challenge!

PLEEAAASE Mr Krell!