"Philosophical" questions, What is a cheesy method? Bug or feature? Options

[Vuki]

I created this topic to discuss the "philosophical" aspect of the game. We can discuss here questions like:

- is a modification really needed or not?
- is something cheesy or cheeting or just a clever trick?
- game balance
- is an actual gap a bug or a feature?
- and so on ...

This topic will be maybe a bit too theoretical but I do not think it is a problem. We need such a place - as the discussions from the last 2-3 weeks prove it.

This post has been edited by Vuki: Aug 11 2008, 08:34 PM

[Baronius]

This is distressing indeed... I think that by the time IA v8 rolls around everything in the game will be disabled except melee, damage spells, disabling spells, buffing spells...

I for one will certainly not be upgrading to v6 it looks like... v5 has some problems but v6 is looking like too much changes for the worse, which sucks because the expanded druid stuff sounds extremely fun.

Whats ironic is that in disabling so much fun aspects of the game in the name of anti-cheese, you end up crippling the versatility of the game and thus let the cheesers win in a sort of way.

The best thing to do, of course, would be to leave semi-cheesy things in the game and let the player self-regulate. There is no good reason not to do this other than Sikret's odd personal quest to make the player forced to play the game exactly how he likes to play it.

This attitude is what is keeping IA a niche mod rather than the unanimously chosen best mod ever... so many aspects of it are brilliant but it bogs itself so far down with these "anti cheese" measures...

And please, don't say that this just means i'm "not a tactician" (which is just a meaningless term of abuse around here).

nataben1314, thanks for keeping your criticism within the scope of your forum account this time. Please keep it up for the future, it is unnecessary (and violates the Terms of Use as well) to use special fake accounts (such as the account called "whyohwhy" which we removed long ago, and it was used by you). We are as good in detecting alternative BWL accounts as Improved Anvil in detecting cheaters! Furthermore, it is really silly to believe that using www.anonymouse.org for alternate BWL accounts is a good idea. This is directed to everyone who prefers using such methods -- please don't do it. Thanks!

I usually act as a technical (and not as a tactical) advisor regarding Improved Anvil, but there are things I find quite obvious and would like to emphasize. First of all, some players are very self-confident when stating that something which restricts players is necessarily wrong. They find it so obvious and natural. Their reasoning is usually the following:

(1) "those who cheat or play cheesily will do it anyway; while others who don't like cheats/cheese will not do it -- consequently, there is no need for anti-cheat methods".

Additionally, they often add that

(2) "everyone should enjoy the game in the way he prefers it -- if it is with cheats or cheese, then it's his or her call; it should not be prevented".

These statements are not baseless, but they follow a very black & white approach (I bet some people are surprised now, because they think it's exactly Improved Anvil which follows a black & white approach ). It is black & white, because it assumes that every player is completely determined and has no weaknesses at all.

We are humans, and we have weaknesses and doubts. For example, when there is an easier solution for a problem, do we choose the more difficult one? Not typical! It is natural that we choose the easier one, and we don't feel that we would be cheaters! Does this mean that if only a difficult solution exists, we retreat and give up?! No! And from this more difficult solution, we learn much more than from an easier solution. Yet, we usually prefer the easier solution even if the harder solution would give more experience and knowledge! (Principle of minimum energy ) On the other hand, if we're forced to do something in a difficult way, we have no other choice than doing it (we cannot choose an easier solution), and at the end, it has two very positive results:
(1) We learnt from something, we improved ourselves; from something which we would not have done if we hadn't been forced to do it.
(2) The feeling of success after hard work, after a challenge.

Consequently, the "self-regulation" suggested by nataben1314 (and some others) has its drawbacks as well. When humans are not forced to do something, they won't do it. It doesn't mean they cheat. On the other hand, if they are forced, they may accept it and at the end, it may prove to be very fruitful to them! Would university students study for themselves if there were no mid-term tests and closed book exams? Most of them wouldn't! Yet, at the end, they become engineers, doctors, economists etc.

Improved Anvil includes difficult battles (which need good tactical basics and require the player to constantly improve his or her tactical skills), and it applies anti-cheese and anti-cheat methods. The first one is obvious -- there is no improvement (and satisfaction) without learning and hard work! The second one makes sense as well, as it says a message to cheaters: "no, this mod is not for you if you want to cheat. If you want to enjoy it, you need to play fair and according to the strict rules of this mod!" This can even change the mind of some cheaters, who realize that "hey, I don't need these cheap solutions, I want to be as good as Raven, thetruth, etc."! Yes, Sikret strongly prefers a certain playing style in Improved Anvil, but he is the author of the mod, so he has all right to prefer (i.e. positively discriminate) that style in his own work!

So those players who think that restrictions are necessarily wrong should reconsider their approach.

Whats ironic is that in disabling so much fun aspects of the game in the name of anti-cheese, you end up crippling the versatility of the game and thus let the cheesers win in a sort of way.

"It closes many possibilities of the original game and disables fun..." is also something that I heard about Improved Anvil a few times (including nataben's present post). Again, this is not as obvious either as certain players think. As we know, rules always restrict something; there are no rules that increase freedom -- they always decrease it in a closed system. But there would be chaos and anarchy without rules -- they are required. Improved Anvil is the most challenging and powerful tactical IE mod (and much more than just a tactical mod, of course), and this difficulty (its urge for players to improve their tactical skills) must be implemented in some way. Rules are required. Without rules and restrictions, there would be no tactical challenges, no improvement. So while some (well-known, often cheesy) possibilities of the original game are closed, Improved Anvil opens a lot of new possibilities as well!

To sum up, just because you don't know about a particular possibility (e.g. a certain tactic), it doesn't mean that it does not exist! "I can't do a lot of things in Improved Anvil that I could do in the original game -- Improved Anvil disables so much fun!" -- this is a very very incorrect approach. It is natural that people want to use the good old' methods they learnt, so it is not a shame that new players want their good old' tactics in Improved Anvil -- but they must realize that they should discover the new possibilities of Improved Anvil and possibly develop new tactics! Sikret emphasized this countless times. Players should realize that Improved Anvil allows them to become the best tacticians of all Infinity Engine games and mods! This means that they can easily win any other tactical mod, so the experience and tactics they learn in Improved Anvil can be applied not only in Improved Anvil!

All in all, I think Improved Anvil makes the game more versatile (as opposed to what nataben1314 says), but players must discover the new possibilities and stop trying to search for their well-known old playing tricks!

So, nataben1314 (or shall I call you whyohwhy/temujin) I think that you are too narrow-minded, which is enough to completely prevent you from becoming a real tactician... However, it is never late to change your mind If you like the mod (which I assume you do, otherwise you wouldn't write so much about it), you need to defeat your own limits. That is, instead of trying to convince Sikret (in various forums and with various accounts), you should try to convince yourself.

[nataben1314]

nataben1314, thanks for keeping your criticism within the scope of your forum account this time. Please keep it up for the future, it is unnecessary (and violates the Terms of Use as well) to use special fake accounts (such as the account called "whyohwhy" which we removed long ago, and it was used by you). We are as good in detecting alternative BWL accounts as Improved Anvil in detecting cheaters! Furthermore, it is really silly to believe that using www.anonymouse.org for alternate BWL accounts is a good idea. This is directed to everyone who prefers using such methods -- please don't do it. Thanks!

I create DL (this was lonnnnng time ago) to criticize IA because I fear something exactly like this... you get bullied and intimidated (which is exactly the purpose of this comment... you would PM me otherwise) if you criticize it and treated unwelcomly (unless the "criticism" is "encounter x isnt difficult enough!" or "spell y is overpowered game breaking cheesy cheat!").

I'm really sorry for making a DL but I had to worry that exactly this would happen... you suddenly find yourself extremely unwelcome if you criticize the mod, and I'm guessing that nothing short of "gee I was so wrong... please forgive me, oh and please remove abilities x y and z from the game because they are game breaking cheesy exploit cheats!" will restore my standing so oh well...

Anyways, I'm sure you want to get in another word about this so you can "one up" me but I will not comment on this further...

These statements are not baseless, but they follow a very black & white approach (I bet some people are surprised now, because they think it's exactly Improved Anvil which follows a black & white approach ). It is black & white, because it assumes that every player is completely determined and has no weaknesses at all.

We are humans, and we have weaknesses and doubts. For example, when there is an easier solution for a problem, do we choose the more difficult one? Not typical! It is natural that we choose the easier one, and we don't feel that we would be cheaters! Does this mean that if only a difficult solution exists, we retreat and give up?! No! And from this more difficult solution, we learn much more than from an easier solution. Yet, we usually prefer the easier solution even if the harder solution would give more experience and knowledge! (Principle of minimum energy ) On the other hand, if we're forced to do something in a difficult way, we have no other choice than doing it (we cannot choose an easier solution), and at the end, it has two very positive results:
(1) We learnt from something, we improved ourselves; from something which we would not have done if we hadn't been forced to do it.
(2) The feeling of success after hard work, after a challenge.

Consequently, the "self-regulation" suggested by nataben1314 (and some others) has its drawbacks as well. When humans are not forced to do something, they won't do it. It doesn't mean they cheat. On the other hand, if they are forced, they may accept it and at the end, it may prove to be very fruitful to them! Would university students study for themselves if there were no mid-term tests and closed book exams? Most of them wouldn't! Yet, at the end, they become engineers, doctors, economists etc.

Improved Anvil includes difficult battles (which need good tactical basics and require the player to constantly improve his or her tactical skills), and it applies anti-cheese and anti-cheat methods. The first one is obvious -- there is no improvement (and satisfaction) without learning and hard work! The second one makes sense as well, as it says a message to cheaters: "no, this mod is not for you if you want to cheat. If you want to enjoy it, you need to play fair and according to the strict rules of this mod!" This can even change the mind of some cheaters, who realize that "hey, I don't need these cheap solutions, I want to be as good as Raven, thetruth, etc."!

Very eloquent, but if you stepped back for a second you'd see how odd this sounds. IA drastically diminishes the versatility in BG2 because it wants to be your loving grandparent, holding your hand and keeping your will strong so that you might become a great tactician!!! This is not very convincing. While anti-cheat measures are fine to me (I dont know much about this but according to you mod authors, it can bug entire games to cheat so I can see why an author would avoid this), the idea that any ability that can even in principle be used cheesily should be removed from the game is just ludicrous. It goes too far. This is what happens when your testing team consists only of super "tacticians"

Whats even more glaring is the fact that if you want IA to be the ultimate tactician mod... you are doing yourself a disservice to remove every ability from the game except a small set... BG2 does not have the strategic depth to allow such a small set of abilities to be tactically fertile. This is why all the "tacticians" in IA are just people who've played it over and over, since "tactics" boils down to "memorizing immunities and resistances so you know what to exploit in the next battle".

Yes, Sikret strongly prefers a certain playing style in Improved Anvil, but he is the author of the mod, so he has all right to prefer (i.e. positively discriminate) that style in his own work!

This is a silly trump card... of course sikret is free to do what he wants, I just wanted to suggest that the mod isn't reaching its full potential. Again this straman and making me feel unwelcome or something...I've said over and over this is my favorite BG2 mod and is so well designed in some areas its scary... I just feel like these decisions about "cheese" are relegating IA to a tiny niche area.

So those players who think that restrictions are necessarily wrong should reconsider their approach.

I never said they are necessarily wrong... stop erecting a strawman. I am just saying that drastically decreasing the number of viable playstyles in the name of anti-cheese essentially just lets the cheesy players ruin it for everyone. There are certain things that can ONLY be used cheezily. For example, fake talk is just an exploit and there is no doubt about that. However, IA ruins many things that can be used perfectly legitimately by most players.

I suspect a lot of players feel this way about IA... but people are afraid to say anything because of how unwelcome you make us feel.

"It closes many possibilities of the original game and disables fun..." is also something that I heard about Improved Anvil a few times (including nataben's present post). Again, this is not as obvious either as certain players think. As we know, rules always restrict something; there are no rules that increase freedom -- they always decrease it in a closed system. But there would be chaos and anarchy without rules -- they are required. Improved Anvil is the most challenging and powerful tactical IE mod (and much more than just a tactical mod, of course), and this difficulty (its urge for players to improve their tactical skills) must be implemented in some way. Rules are required. Without rules and restrictions, there would be no tactical challenges, no improvement. So while some (well-known, often cheesy) possibilities of the original game are closed, Improved Anvil opens a lot of new possibilities as well!

To sum up, just because you don't know about a particular possibility (e.g. a certain tactic), it doesn't mean that it does not exist! "I can't do a lot of things in Improved Anvil that I could do in the original game -- Improved Anvil disables so much fun!" -- this is a very very incorrect approach. It is natural that people want to use the good old' methods they learnt, so it is not a shame that new players want their good old' tactics in Improved Anvil -- but they must realize that they should discover the new possibilities of Improved Anvil and possibly develop new tactics! Sikret emphasized this countless times. Players should realize that Improved Anvil allows them to become the best tacticians of all Infinity Engine games and mods! This means that they can easily win any other tactical mod, so the experience and tactics they learn in Improved Anvil can be applied not only in Improved Anvil!

All in all, I think Improved Anvil makes the game more versatile (as opposed to what nataben1314 says), but players must discover the new possibilities and stop trying to search for their well-known old playing tricks!

So, nataben1314 (or shall I call you whyohwhy/temujin) I think that you are too narrow-minded, which is enough to completely prevent you from becoming a real tactician... However, it is never late to change your mind If you like the mod (which I assume you do, otherwise you wouldn't write so much about it), you need to defeat your own limits. That is, instead of trying to convince Sikret (in various forums and with various accounts), you should try to convince yourself.

so to sum up, if you dont like any aspect of the mod it simply cannot be because there is any flaw with the mod. The mod is perfect and not open to any substantive criticism. If you do not like any aspect of the mod, it must be because you "are not a tactician" (I swear the word "tactician" is thrown around here in such a ludicrous way that its almost hilarious). I'll let that speak for itself...

ps: I have no idea who temujin is... whyohwhy is the only DL I made and I dont have accounts at other forums besides sorcerers place which my nick there is nataben1314, and where I've always said good things about IA and recommended it to people.

anyways, I have officially been "outed" as an IA-criticizer so there is little place left for me here and I am destined to be treated inferior/unwelcome... I will definitely still download IA when I get my new computer and may even try v6... Sikret I want you to know this is still IMO the best mod ever for BG2 and you have done such a great job... I'm sorry for criticizing any aspect of it and I will now just lurk here for info but not post... thanks for all your effort and thanks to baronius too for the hosting and everything... this mod for all the flaws I think it has still blows stuff like tactics and SCS2 out of the water.