some notes on inquisitors & Keldorn Firecam Options

[Kerkes]

To be honest, I like inquisitor kit quite a bit. From a RPG perspective, he could be dubbed as a "divine dispeller" or something, from a pure gaming perspective: ultimate mage killing-machine with the power of a Divine God at his back...
I now find them a bit useless.
For many reasons.
Not that there's anything wrong with them as pure fighters (well, gimme a dwarf Berserker any day over an inquisitor anyway). What I did found out is this:
Until they hit REALLY high levels, they are useless. Their "dispel magic" is always lacking a bit. Or much. There are few fights where their "dispel" could be useful:
1)pirate coordinator - will it work in chp3? No. Will it be needed in chpt.6? No. Does anybody wait for chp6 to face them?
2)Dracolich. will it work before you exit Underdark? No. God knows I tried.
3)Noble Genie in Ust Natha, Deirex cave 2nd floor. It won't work.
4)If you're not evil, and go for Vanya's first quest (Rune Asassins) it will work sometimes (not always, depending on his lvl), but you'll probably have HLA's by then, your sorc will be an Avatar of Mass Destruction etc. Will you need "dispel" here? No, to say the truth. You'll have problems even casting it early on, with those Asassins hurting you. In my expirience, you can (and this is what usually happens) kill everybody and leave them for last, since they have elemental resistances, unlike most of the other thieves..
5)in any Dragon battle, Inqusitors are useless as dispelers, since dragons can be breached, wich is far more reliable than "dispel"
6)in late game (ToB) your cleric can probably dispel both Sendai and that Lich in her lair (forgot his name, has "Skull of Lich" for Spectral Brand and Pommel Jewel for Carsomyr), Abazigal also, which are the last enemies you'll be facing who use SI:div. Not to forget the fact that Inquisitor is a fighter. With Skeleton Granlords running around, you'll hardly have time to cast "dispel" vs.Lich. He'll also get silenced (probably), if not equiped with Amulet of Power. And you'll want that item on someone else here, trust me.
7)if you get to the point where their "dispel magic" gains power, you'll be more than well-equiped with knowledge on how to fight against enemies who use SI:div and SI:abj
8)final fight of Judgement Day. By the time you see this, you'll hardly need to "dispel" anything. Marilyths (Escorts, Demon Knights...) will be dispellable by your mage via "remove magic". Sure, he can dispel the main demon's pfmw. So can your cleric. Not to forget the fact you must be "good aligned single-class warrior" to actually see this fight.
9)Liches. Sure, it works (sometimes) at very high levels. It will also dispel your Death Ward, Prot Magic Energy, Prot Fire etc. Brilliant.
10)Guardians for Dragonslayer sword. Wee-hoo! It worked. Was it needed? At this levels (18), chpt6? - No.
11)it is a "dispel", not a "remove". This is a BIG problem. My f/m/c (I tried all this with a f/m/c prot) had a hard time keeping his SI active due to all those Rubys he was taking, and now he also had to worry about "friendly fire"? It sucks. How many times do you "need" a "dispel" instead a "remove"? I, myself, not once. Imp.haste is a very important spell, for practically any mid and late-game fight. Not to mention Prot mag Energy, which is essential. Unless you have a "perfect aim" for dispel (or SI active), it's gone.
12)Orcus. If you get a "dispel" off in this fight with an Inquisitor before you kill other enemies, you should get a Nobel Prize. Not to mention that Orcus has more than one PFMW casting. Cleric can also dispel him, if high lvl enough.
13)Samia wizard (Kaol) Not only do you have a hard time casting it, it also barely works at lvls17, 18, 19. A sorcerer, on the other hand, shines here at this levels.
14)EDE - my my... no comment on what inq can actually contribute here, and what a sorc cannot do. Right, sorc can "remove"....inq can not. He can dispel your pfme with a high probability.
The single advantage they have is the casting speed (it still gets disrupted), not the fact that their dispel is so powerful. A cleric basically falls 2 levels behind them for most of the game, due to the fact that clerics gain lvls so much faster. Not to forget that Cleric has also other spells to cast, not only "dispel".
15)for any oponnent who use SI:div and CAN be breached. As noted above, inquisitor won't do much good before he gets HLAs. Once your sorc get HLAs, he can Breach everybody via Wish, making inquisitors even more crappy.
Just what good are they if you have, for example, 2 sorcerers with 18 wis, practically ensuring you'll get the right Wish option?
16) Supreme Leader. It's not his pfmw casting that's the problem in this fight, so even if you do "dispel" it, it won't do much good.

As for Keldorn... I really gave this guy a lot of credit. I like him a lot for his character. How come only Valy had his strenght buffed up? "You still may use Belts." Aha. Wait till you find one. "strenght" spell? Try and see how long it will last when Keldorn sees Torgal. Potions? Damn expensive, dispellable. Dextery is also very low, actually abysmal. He has also one big issue (well, he has more than 1 issue ) - his armor.
It gives you 40% resistance to Magic Damage and a slight saving throw bonus. (+2)
Is it needed? It's useless. The one and only dangerous "magic damage" you'll be facing are ADHWs. Keldorn wields 2-handed wpns. You WILL forge Poseidon Halberd, right? What good is Keldorn's armor then? 25%missile resistance? If you want this that badly, forge Huskars armor. There are very few fights where immunity to missiles is useful, btw, and if it's not 100%, it won't do much good, since it's not the missiles which kill you. You also might want to use a very low AC vs.missiles instead. I SK'd Keldorn to use bastard swords and flails (Phosphorous) when I took him along to actually make this item upgrade useful and had a Berserker with Poseidon.
IMO, it's previous version (Free Action) would be much more useful in IA. Overpowered? yes, apsolutely. More useful? Try any spider fight, or Drow ambushes. EDE also.
15% resistance to MD on his non-upgraded armor? a Chain Con of 3xWiltings will kill him, regardless.
You may say: "Well, someone else can then wield PW halberd".
How many people use 2 fighters with 2-handed wpns? Very few from what I've seen.
The armor upgrade is incredibly expensive (waay too much... It does look cool however!), to say the least, since you must also buy Trachies Plate (which is useless), so the cost is actually around 125000 + all the items also used which could be sold (Beljurils etc.). Not to mention the wasting of Belt of Inertial Barrier.
Take another armor/item combo - Great Wyrm scale/Belt of inertial barrier. 125 000. Comes late, but Keldorn's armor may also come quite late.
50% mag.damage reduction, 75%fire reduction, wield any weapon you want. Takes your belt slot, but you can use Lum the Mad machine to get strenght to 19 or 20.
And play a berserker...

Now, you may argue/disagree with some points here, but that's where Inquisitors stand in IA IMO.. which is bad.
My solution to their problems would be to make them cast both "remove" and "dispel", in a way similar as sorcerers do.
For example - lvl 9 inq would have 3 spells to cast. So, he could cast 2x remove and 1x dispel.
Or/and, give them another +x to spellcasting lvl. There's really no point in playing them, since until they hit high levels they can't dispel anything but fighter potions. And when they do, you don't need it anymore. They just don't make a difference, and they should.
I know and understand that this has probably been tested before IA5 got out. I fail to see the point still. What good is an Inquisitor in party if he can't dispel anything IMPORTANT before HLAs? Your imp.haste will be dispelled, of course. He may fail to dispel even THAT sometimes. You're better off without him, and taking a normal fighter, or a sorcerer.
If you're a big fan of Paladins, I'd say: go for Cavalier. He's crappy compared to berserkers or barbarians (not to mention kensai..or rangers) but immunity to poison and fear (which will be removed, unfortunately I must say. I hardly see this as an "unfair advantage" over anything) are much better than "Charm" and "Hold" immunities of Inquisitor kit.

This post has been edited by Kerkes: Nov 1 2008, 06:57 PM

[LZJ]

In IA5, bards are far better than inqs as dispelers. Nobody can say they are not, since they are.

I agree... the slightly higher effective level of Inquisitors' Dispel does not compensate for the difficulty of micro-managing, when Bards can just use Remove Magic.

In IA6, they won't be. They'll be worse than mages, since they will level up more slowly than mages (If somebody plays a bard in IA6, he should have his head examined). So, regardless of Eternal Melody, they'll be useless, since their high casting level will no longer be an advantage, mages level up faster than bards now.

I don't know how you've gotten this idea. I'm currently testing IA v6 and the xp level progression is unchanged from v5. Bards still level up much faster than mages.

Inq dispels even clerical buffs (not with a high probability for most of the game). Sorc can not cast cleric protections spells. Cleric won't refresh spells fast enough (chaotic commands for example). What part here is not clear? Does your sorc memorize also prot fire, prot electricity? Mine does not.

Ah, I think I finally get the point you're getting at, which is about refreshing protections after they are dispelled by the Inquisitor. Actually, my sorc does (or rather, will) memorize Prot Fire, but that's a separate point and doesn't affect the validity of your argument.

The solution to this is skilful targeting, that's all I can say about that. Also, many mages would remain stationary whilst casting spells, whilst the fighters would come after you. I know there are a few exceptions where powerful mages are found in closed areas which makes the Dispel even harder to target, but I won't mention them here because I do not wish to unintentionally give spoilers. Something possible is to allow your SI:A mages to tank it out by moving in front first, whilst your Inquisitor casts Dispel Magic before your fighters move in. The downside to the Inquisitor's powerful Dispel is that it is extremely difficult to use effectively in mid-battle, which is probably why you dislike it so much. However, the enemies tend to cast Remove Magic as well which can also strip your party's buffs, so I see the Inquisitor's Dispel as a good equalising tool to use when that happens.

I don't think "every class" has disadvantages or advantages. Vagrants have very few "disadvantages" IMO (leather armor (the best armor in game is vagrant only) and 12 Charisma. woo hoo), sorcs also. Figh/mag even more so, to name a few. Asassin? Bard, in IA6? Do they have "advantages"? Hardly. They are, or will be, useless (not to forget "Bounty Hunters".)
0x0 equals zero means - their usefulness in IA5 is 0 for me. If Sikret made any improvements (such as turning them vanilla again, which won't happen) I said I'd still not play them, they'd still be useless for me.

I agree that some kits are more powered up than others, especially some rather useless ones in the vanilla game. In particular, vagrants are very powerful in IA, which I don't deny... I can hardly find a major disadvantage to them. That aside, sorcs are powerful but they lack flexibility in casting, especially when casting party buffs. This is evident in the early game when one has to consider carefully which lvl 6 spell to take, lvl 7 spell etc. Late game, they are powerful, no doubts about that. Sorcs are perhaps more useful in IA for experienced players than single-class mages are, but between a mage or sorcerer protagonist, the mage has a much better chance of forging the Cloak of the Apprenti compared to a sorc protagonist.

Fighter/Mages are powerful, but they get HLAs and 9th level spells much slower and their spells' effective level is lower, so a single-class mage would quite often have more value to the party as a whole.

Also, Bards may be seriously nerfed in v6, but their one saving grace (to me) is the Improved Bard Song. I admit this would not be enough to make me pick them though. Anyway, v6 changes are not finalized yet, so let's just wait and see how it goes.

Anyway, I do get what you're saying about the relative lack of usefulness of the Inquisitors' Dispel. One of the current IA testers (not me) is testing out the Inquisitor, so I'm sure that the difficulties you've mentioned will be tested from his experiences. Just to repeat a point though: many mages will be stationary when they are casting spells so they can get out of the way when the Inquisitor releases a strategically placed Dispel. Admittedly, this is difficult to do in certain confined areas and/or when enemy fighters are harassing you as well.

EDIT:
I just checked up the Pirate Coordinator. A level 14 Inquisitor (2 million xp) would have a 20% chance of dispelling his protections. By contrast, a Bard of the same experience would be at lvl 17 with a 1% chance only.

For the Dracolich, it is true that a lvl 17 inquisitor (3.05 million xp) would only have a 20% chance of dispelling his buffs. However, a level 18 Inquisitor (3.4 million xp) has a 40% chance... I'm not too sure now of what levels your party members can achieve if they leave the Dracolich to the end of Chpt 5, after all the Drow city quests.

13)Samia wizard (Kaol) Not only do you have a hard time casting it, it also barely works at lvls17, 18, 19. A sorcerer, on the other hand, shines here at this levels.

Now, for this I cannot believe it barely works. At level 17, it should work 50% of the time. At level 18, it would work 70% of the time. Level 19, 80%.

This post has been edited by LZJ: Nov 4 2008, 12:49 PM