some notes on inquisitors & Keldorn Firecam Options

[Kerkes]

To be honest, I like inquisitor kit quite a bit. From a RPG perspective, he could be dubbed as a "divine dispeller" or something, from a pure gaming perspective: ultimate mage killing-machine with the power of a Divine God at his back...
I now find them a bit useless.
For many reasons.
Not that there's anything wrong with them as pure fighters (well, gimme a dwarf Berserker any day over an inquisitor anyway). What I did found out is this:
Until they hit REALLY high levels, they are useless. Their "dispel magic" is always lacking a bit. Or much. There are few fights where their "dispel" could be useful:
1)pirate coordinator - will it work in chp3? No. Will it be needed in chpt.6? No. Does anybody wait for chp6 to face them?
2)Dracolich. will it work before you exit Underdark? No. God knows I tried.
3)Noble Genie in Ust Natha, Deirex cave 2nd floor. It won't work.
4)If you're not evil, and go for Vanya's first quest (Rune Asassins) it will work sometimes (not always, depending on his lvl), but you'll probably have HLA's by then, your sorc will be an Avatar of Mass Destruction etc. Will you need "dispel" here? No, to say the truth. You'll have problems even casting it early on, with those Asassins hurting you. In my expirience, you can (and this is what usually happens) kill everybody and leave them for last, since they have elemental resistances, unlike most of the other thieves..
5)in any Dragon battle, Inqusitors are useless as dispelers, since dragons can be breached, wich is far more reliable than "dispel"
6)in late game (ToB) your cleric can probably dispel both Sendai and that Lich in her lair (forgot his name, has "Skull of Lich" for Spectral Brand and Pommel Jewel for Carsomyr), Abazigal also, which are the last enemies you'll be facing who use SI:div. Not to forget the fact that Inquisitor is a fighter. With Skeleton Granlords running around, you'll hardly have time to cast "dispel" vs.Lich. He'll also get silenced (probably), if not equiped with Amulet of Power. And you'll want that item on someone else here, trust me.
7)if you get to the point where their "dispel magic" gains power, you'll be more than well-equiped with knowledge on how to fight against enemies who use SI:div and SI:abj
8)final fight of Judgement Day. By the time you see this, you'll hardly need to "dispel" anything. Marilyths (Escorts, Demon Knights...) will be dispellable by your mage via "remove magic". Sure, he can dispel the main demon's pfmw. So can your cleric. Not to forget the fact you must be "good aligned single-class warrior" to actually see this fight.
9)Liches. Sure, it works (sometimes) at very high levels. It will also dispel your Death Ward, Prot Magic Energy, Prot Fire etc. Brilliant.
10)Guardians for Dragonslayer sword. Wee-hoo! It worked. Was it needed? At this levels (18), chpt6? - No.
11)it is a "dispel", not a "remove". This is a BIG problem. My f/m/c (I tried all this with a f/m/c prot) had a hard time keeping his SI active due to all those Rubys he was taking, and now he also had to worry about "friendly fire"? It sucks. How many times do you "need" a "dispel" instead a "remove"? I, myself, not once. Imp.haste is a very important spell, for practically any mid and late-game fight. Not to mention Prot mag Energy, which is essential. Unless you have a "perfect aim" for dispel (or SI active), it's gone.
12)Orcus. If you get a "dispel" off in this fight with an Inquisitor before you kill other enemies, you should get a Nobel Prize. Not to mention that Orcus has more than one PFMW casting. Cleric can also dispel him, if high lvl enough.
13)Samia wizard (Kaol) Not only do you have a hard time casting it, it also barely works at lvls17, 18, 19. A sorcerer, on the other hand, shines here at this levels.
14)EDE - my my... no comment on what inq can actually contribute here, and what a sorc cannot do. Right, sorc can "remove"....inq can not. He can dispel your pfme with a high probability.
The single advantage they have is the casting speed (it still gets disrupted), not the fact that their dispel is so powerful. A cleric basically falls 2 levels behind them for most of the game, due to the fact that clerics gain lvls so much faster. Not to forget that Cleric has also other spells to cast, not only "dispel".
15)for any oponnent who use SI:div and CAN be breached. As noted above, inquisitor won't do much good before he gets HLAs. Once your sorc get HLAs, he can Breach everybody via Wish, making inquisitors even more crappy.
Just what good are they if you have, for example, 2 sorcerers with 18 wis, practically ensuring you'll get the right Wish option?
16) Supreme Leader. It's not his pfmw casting that's the problem in this fight, so even if you do "dispel" it, it won't do much good.

As for Keldorn... I really gave this guy a lot of credit. I like him a lot for his character. How come only Valy had his strenght buffed up? "You still may use Belts." Aha. Wait till you find one. "strenght" spell? Try and see how long it will last when Keldorn sees Torgal. Potions? Damn expensive, dispellable. Dextery is also very low, actually abysmal. He has also one big issue (well, he has more than 1 issue ) - his armor.
It gives you 40% resistance to Magic Damage and a slight saving throw bonus. (+2)
Is it needed? It's useless. The one and only dangerous "magic damage" you'll be facing are ADHWs. Keldorn wields 2-handed wpns. You WILL forge Poseidon Halberd, right? What good is Keldorn's armor then? 25%missile resistance? If you want this that badly, forge Huskars armor. There are very few fights where immunity to missiles is useful, btw, and if it's not 100%, it won't do much good, since it's not the missiles which kill you. You also might want to use a very low AC vs.missiles instead. I SK'd Keldorn to use bastard swords and flails (Phosphorous) when I took him along to actually make this item upgrade useful and had a Berserker with Poseidon.
IMO, it's previous version (Free Action) would be much more useful in IA. Overpowered? yes, apsolutely. More useful? Try any spider fight, or Drow ambushes. EDE also.
15% resistance to MD on his non-upgraded armor? a Chain Con of 3xWiltings will kill him, regardless.
You may say: "Well, someone else can then wield PW halberd".
How many people use 2 fighters with 2-handed wpns? Very few from what I've seen.
The armor upgrade is incredibly expensive (waay too much... It does look cool however!), to say the least, since you must also buy Trachies Plate (which is useless), so the cost is actually around 125000 + all the items also used which could be sold (Beljurils etc.). Not to mention the wasting of Belt of Inertial Barrier.
Take another armor/item combo - Great Wyrm scale/Belt of inertial barrier. 125 000. Comes late, but Keldorn's armor may also come quite late.
50% mag.damage reduction, 75%fire reduction, wield any weapon you want. Takes your belt slot, but you can use Lum the Mad machine to get strenght to 19 or 20.
And play a berserker...

Now, you may argue/disagree with some points here, but that's where Inquisitors stand in IA IMO.. which is bad.
My solution to their problems would be to make them cast both "remove" and "dispel", in a way similar as sorcerers do.
For example - lvl 9 inq would have 3 spells to cast. So, he could cast 2x remove and 1x dispel.
Or/and, give them another +x to spellcasting lvl. There's really no point in playing them, since until they hit high levels they can't dispel anything but fighter potions. And when they do, you don't need it anymore. They just don't make a difference, and they should.
I know and understand that this has probably been tested before IA5 got out. I fail to see the point still. What good is an Inquisitor in party if he can't dispel anything IMPORTANT before HLAs? Your imp.haste will be dispelled, of course. He may fail to dispel even THAT sometimes. You're better off without him, and taking a normal fighter, or a sorcerer.
If you're a big fan of Paladins, I'd say: go for Cavalier. He's crappy compared to berserkers or barbarians (not to mention kensai..or rangers) but immunity to poison and fear (which will be removed, unfortunately I must say. I hardly see this as an "unfair advantage" over anything) are much better than "Charm" and "Hold" immunities of Inquisitor kit.

This post has been edited by Kerkes: Nov 1 2008, 06:57 PM

[Kerkes]

@ Sikret
There's no contradicition. A 60% chance from inq is not good enough for my taste. I want my fighters close to him AND imp.haste on them along with other prot buffs, which cannot be done with an Inq casting dispel. Kaol is dead in the next round if "wish" breach is an option. If not, switch to normal wpns, and kill him with that. There's no need to dispel anything here, as I already mentioned. I'd rather have imp.haste activated, along with all other buffs, so I can take care of fighters also.
Even if an inq dispels him, what then? If I have no fighters close to him, I'll need to dispel again. Or breach (if he doesn't go invisible), but my sorc can do something else instead (like going in TS and doing what they do best).
"Enough number" is 3 for sorcerer, since at lvl18 they cast 3 lvl 9 spells I believe. What part here is a contradiction? You can also get "make if rested". So the chance actually isn't that poor compared to what inq has, no? A "breach" will always work on Kaol, unlike dispel. I never mentioned mage, I mentioned sorcerer. You can also get "breach on everyone" on the first try, breaching all of the other goons asap also.
60% chance for dispel won't touch Hardiness.
I already mentioned, this fight really isn't all that hard even if Kaol lives for some time (he can live for 30 mins for all I care), so the usefulness of inqs is really best not discussed over Kaol, there are far worse enemies (say Sendai's lich. Odamaron?) in IA where an Inq could be useful, but is not (as I mentioned in my previous post).
I disagree with "an inq is more powerful dispeler than bard even in IA5". A bard can put 3x remove magic in a sequencer. He has Alcatry. He can cast while being surrounded by enemies without getting disrupted. He can be vocalized. Most importantly, he casts "remove magic". He casts spells very fast. And a bard is usually 1 single lvl behind an Inq (considering their dispeling power). 3x lvl 23 "remove" beats 1x "dispel" lvl24 by far. So, I don't see bards inferior to inqs in IA5. In IA6, they won't be as good. In IA5, they are. It's not something I like, I wrote you a PM with my toughts about how overpowered bard's dispeling power is. This is a fact in IA5, not my imagination or my fondness for bards.
I said, that "I" don't like inqs and made a post of "my opinion" on them. Of course, if someone likes them, play them, regardless of what I think. This posts I made are based on my experiences with them (and Keldorn). I posted just how they do in 16 different fights, and didn't even mention those like Torgal, Troll Queen (did in the next post, ok) Ilithid sewers etc. where Keldorn's usefulness is better not discussed. And just how useful they are in those fights, for me.
I also wrote that even if they were not nerfed, even if clerics would not turn them, I still would not play them. Therefore, it may be just my playing style. I'm not saying they are not powerful dispelers at high lvls, they are. At lvl 30, they can basically dispel anything. What I am saying, a sorc is always, in any given fight, at any level, simply more useful, (there are fights where a figher-heavy approach is preffered. But there are better fighters than inqs are in this game) even if you already have one sorc in your party. 2 sorcs + a mage is better than sorc, mage + inquisitor for IA fights in my experience.

it's something each player should decide for himself

- I completely agree. I have.

@ LZJ

Ironskins be breached

- you can use an f/m instead of Jaheira if you need another target for breach. A f/m can cast quite a few more stoneskins than Jaheira can ironskins. Stoneskins can have even a shorter casting time. f/m can, of course, also have "hardiness". He can also buff your mages, a mage's spellbook is far better than druid's, for any kind of protection spell.
"vocalize" is of course, great in certain battles. -2 to casting speed, extra spell slots are even better. Not to forget Aura Cleansing, and all of the other Cernd abilities. In EDE, give me Jaheira over Cernd any day, I agree.
But not all of IA is EDE.

Low strenght

- I already mentioned this for Keldorn. Belts aren't easy to get. She, of course, can get those Ogre gauntlets, which are better for her anyway.

As for AC, sure. Why bother with Ironskins or Hardiness then? Just joking, yes, low AC is good in some very hard fights (I noticed this a lot when I had a berserker with an AC of -21 and a barbarian at -12 in the same party. Barbarian was taking a lot more dmg, regardless of his 20% innate dmg resistance). Jaheira was always an AC tank, even in vanilla. I still prefer something else for a tank, but that's just me.

For that "golem" - Lirarcor +3 will do just well, no need for +5 enhancement. But yes, I agree that Warblade is a powerful wpn. I like it, and regullary forge it. I just like that my 2-hnd guy has points in swords, halbs and staffs from the start, not max in anything unless I want to dual. Sarevok doesn't, which is bad for me. Of course, it does not make him useless. GWW will give you 10apr, even if you give Sarevok a dagger.
Does anybody use that "Ravager" halberd with Vorpal anymore? I always used Sarevok with that in vanilla.

[Sikret]

Are you trying to make suggestions for v6, Kerkes? Or are you just talking about how it was in v5?

My impression was that you were making suggestions for v6. If so, you should consider every factor as they are in v6, right?

1- In v6, bard is no match for inquisitor; so, let's stop commenting about bards and comparing them with inquisitors here. Inquisitors are far better dispellers than bards.

2- In v6, Kaol casts Absolute Immunity. So, there is no point in getting excited about normal weapons.

3- In v6, The "magical rest" option of wish has its own dangers. So, saying that the sorcerer can choose magical rest instead of breach and continue to wish doesn't convince me. By the time you gain the breach option, many nasty things may happen to your party.

Even in v5, a sorcerer's chance to get the "breach everyone" option out of casting three wish spells is still far lower than an inquisitor's chance to dispel Kaol by casting three dispel magics.

Even with one dispel magic, his chance is 60% which is still higher than the sorcerer's chance to get the breach option. It's simple math (hence, the contradiction I wrote about). With three dispel magics, the inquisitor's chance is 94%.

Moreover, if the inquistor does the dispelling job, the sorcerer can make better use of his 9th level spells in the battle instead of casting all of his three 9th level spells in the hope of gaining the breach option.

Dracolich is even a better example than Kaol. Noone, but an inquisitor, can dispel Dracolich. Even the breach option of wish spell doesn't work on him (and remember that you can't return for Dracolich with a very high level party in chapter 6).

It's true that the inquisitor will also dispel your own protections and buffs; but that's when a sorcerer with Imp. Alacrity can come in to refresh them quickly. This is a much better use of the sorcerer. As I said, playing an inquisitor requires its own expertise and tactical skills. When his dispel magic dispels your own buffs, you should know how to refresh them quickly rather than cursing the inquisitor for what he has done.

If you don't want to play inquisitors, don't play them; I can understand this as I said in my previous post, but you have not convinced me that they need to be improved for the next version of the mod.