Learning spells from scrolls Options

[Sikret]

Arguments and counter-arguments:

Arguments for option 1:

(I) We don't need to remove the xp granted by writing scrolls, because erasing spells from spellbook and writing them over and over again is a cheat and if a player intends to cheat, he will eventually use the console command or an editor to add xp to his characters when he sees that re-writing scrolls doesn't work for this purpose. So, why should we bother with removing the xp when there are other ways to cheat?

(II) The xp gained by learning spells from scrolls is a very nice and handy feature early in the game to help low level parties boost their xp to some extent (not by erasing and re-writing, of course). It's not the best choice to remove this handy feature just because some cheaters may abuse it. Blocking cheats is good, but only if it won't affect legitimate players' games in any way (in this case, it does).

Arguments for option 2:

(I) Players who play the game legitimately and do not practice erasing and rewriting scrolls won't notice any significant change in their game if we remove the xp granted by writing scrolls, because the total amount of xp a legitimate player gains from writing scrolls isn't that much in the entire game. He writes each spell only once and removing the xp won't affect his game. On the other hand, this change can appropriately block the xp exploit some players use. It's true that erasing spells and writing them over and over again is a cheat and doesn't actually have any difference with using the console command or editors to add xp to characters, but some misguided players do believe that there is a difference between these methods; as long as they can do something inside the game without using console commands or editors they think that it is fine. All in all, other players who don't abuse such exploits should not worry about this suggested tweak, because it won't affect their games in any noticeable way.

(II) Moreover, why should learning a spell grant thousands of xp at all (specially when even failing to learn it can be easily overcome by trying another scroll of the same spell again and again till success - not to mention the possibility to reload the game)?

(III) Since mages have an HLA to scribe scrolls, they have also unlimited number of scrolls in the game. In the progress report for IA v6, it is mentioned that scrolls gained via the HLA won't have any market price and can't be sold for infinite gold. When we block the exploits for infinite gold why should we not block it for infinite xp these scrolls can offer?

I hope that I have been fair in offering the arguments for both options. As for myself, I am honestly 50-50 and undecided. Both sides' arguments have merits. That's why I'm asking for your opinions.

Vote and send a reply containing your vote and your reasons as well (anonymous votes will be ignored).

Also, note that if you see the results before voting, you won't be able to vote afterwards.

Thanks.

[lroumen]

I wonder why you feel that you would need to change this. It's not anti-cheating because this is really a non-issue. Cheaters will simply cheat anyway and people who legitimately dual-class or level up with scrolls are surely prepared to endure more hardship in battle if the scroll XP gain had not been there.
If you remove the XP then you probably don't achieve a goal such as anti-cheating, but at the same time you make it more difficult for new IA players to get started and get into the IA gameplay, since you made it slightly more difficult for them to gain XP early-game. And Suna Seni isn't that easy if you don't know how she has been buffed, you don't have the right spells memorised but you are stuck in a place such as the government district where you cannot easily get any scrolls, XP or rest. Leveling up a bit would probably help there (if only for the increase in saving throws, thac0, health and usage of higher level spells).


Regardless, I think it's not illogical for a mage to gain XP from writing spells. You cannot expect that every spell is written on paper in the common-language. Perhaps the scroll that the mage acquire was from an ogre-mage written in ogre language (if there is such a thing) or an elven mage who used elven runes. Your Gnome illusionist surely must first interpret the words into his own language and then translate it into his own spellbook. Should he misinterpret the text he should fail. Should he understand the text, then he should gain XP for the translation. I think it's more illogical that the mage knows which "level" a spell is, but that can be attributed to his own interpretation on how difficult the spell-casting "recipe" is and he writes it down as dead-easy, mediocre, advanced and whatnot. If a mage has two spell scrolls for the same spell than he may still misinterpret both since it may be one written by elves and one written by halflings, or both written by elves but he understands little of the language. Relearning spells is a similar practice. If the original spell was in an elven language and the new spell is in another language, then some experience gain can be understood (though gameplay wise rewriting is of course rather lame).
Mages writing scrolls also learn something new to use and maybe it makes them smarter for the next time when they have to decipher spell scrolls. That's an acceptable description of experience gain to me. In comparison, thieves get experience from disarming traps and opening locks. Seems similarly logical to me. Do something, learn something, gain something.
Sorceresses gaining spells from nothing on the other hand..... It's probably due to them practicing or experimenting with magic, but how on earth would you learn a spell that is 100% unrelated to the ones you already know? The only thing I can come up with is that they copy it from foes they met or they try out stuff in their spare time. Sorceresses are more illogical to me than mages.

Another example of illogical... stuff... but this one is related to experience gain.
The party gets experience every time they kill a creature. Whether it's the 1st kobold they slay or the 101st kobold they slay, the XP gain is always the same.
That's nice for the player, but much more illogical to me than the amount of experience gained by learning a new spell. After killing 10 kobolds, do you keep learning an equal amount from killing the next 10 or the next 10 or the next 10? Maybe yes, if you use different ways to kill them... fire damage, cold damage, slashing, piercing... but not if you always do it with a fireball spell. Now that's illogical XP gain again.


As for a concrete suggestion.
Is it possible to block the ability to erase spells from the spellbook? That may solve your hesitations all-round.
Of course remove any tips related to erasing spells and add tips to say that erasing isn't possible in IA and that the player needs to think about his spell book composition.

This post has been edited by lroumen: Oct 8 2008, 11:08 AM

[Sikret]

Regardless, I think it's not illogical for a mage to gain XP from writing spells. You cannot expect that every spell is written on paper in the common-language. Perhaps the scroll that the mage acquire was from an ogre-mage written in ogre language (if there is such a thing) or an elven mage who used elven runes. Your Gnome illusionist surely must first interpret the words into his own language and then translate it into his own spellbook. Should he misinterpret the text he should fail.

Yes, as I said in my previous post, if the "failure" was genuine in BG2 (as it is in pnp), I would accept this argument. But it's not genuine (as I explained before).

If a mage has two spell scrolls for the same spell than he may still misinterpret both since it may be one written by elves and one written by halflings, or both written by elves but he understands little of the language. Relearning spells is a similar practice. If the original spell was in an elven language and the new spell is in another language, then some experience gain can be understood

It is mostly assumed that all scrolls are written in a standard magical jargon (formulas and recipes). So, if you fail to learn the spell from one scroll, you should keep failing even if you retry another scroll of the same spell. It's how it works in pnp and your mage has no chance to learn that spell till she can permanently boost her intelligence.

Another example of illogical... stuff... but this one is related to experience gain.
The party gets experience every time they kill a creature. Whether it's the 1st kobold they slay or the 101st kobold they slay, the XP gain is always the same.
That's nice for the player, but much more illogical to me than the amount of experience gained by learning a new spell. After killing 10 kobolds, do you keep learning an equal amount from killing the next 10 or the next 10 or the next 10? Maybe yes, if you use different ways to kill them... fire damage, cold damage, slashing, piercing... but not if you always do it with a fireball spell. Now that's illogical XP gain again.

Do you mean that a warrior who kills an army of orcs to save a village should gain the same amount of xp he would gain for killing 4 or 5 orcs? I don't think that I agree.

There is of course a possible exceptional case: If those orcs were summoned by magic, then I would agree that killing them shouldn't give xp and the total xp should be gained only after killing the source (= the boss who has summoned them), but even in that case, none of those orcs should have xp value (even the first one who appears). This is also the justification for why summoned creatures don't have any xp value in the game.

[lroumen]

Do you mean that a warrior who kills an army of orcs to save a village should gain the same amount of xp he would gain for killing 4 or 5 orcs? I don't think that I agree.

There is of course a possible exceptional case: If those orcs were summoned by magic, then I would agree that killing them shouldn't give xp and the total xp should be gained only after killing the source (= the boss who has summoned them), but even in that case, none of those orcs should have xp value (even the first one who appears). This is also the justification for why summoned creatures don't have any xp value in the game.

Just to respond to this matter. Sorry for my late reply.

If your mage clears a town of 1000 orcs. I don't agree that upon killing the last orc he should obtain the same XP as for the first orc. After killing so many there is likely nothing new to learn from offin gyet another orc. XP scaling is a feature that certain games use to accommodate this irregularity. From clearing the town of orcs you can of course gain an XP bonus, but this is independant from the fact that your killing orcs, but rather for the finalisation of the feat or 'quest' if you will.
Also, if you've never seen or killed a gnoll before and a foe summons gnolls, why should you not learn from that experience and gain XP?



I do feel that it is to be admired that you want to be consistent with PnP rules, however, not every player knows every PnP rule .

[Sikret]

If your mage clears a town of 1000 orcs. I don't agree that upon killing the last orc he should obtain the same XP as for the first orc.

To be honest, I don't see the connection between the discussion about orcs with the topic at hand. The previous time I replied to it just becaue it was an opportunity to explain the justification behind removing the xp value from summoned creatures.

But if you mean that I should decrease the xp of a monster type depending on the number of them who are already killed by the party, you should have opened a new topic for that suggestion. If I agreed with that suggestion, I could probably find a way to implement it, but I don't agree with it . It's not even how it generally works in pnp (though a DM can implement such local rules in his games).

Let's stay on-topic.