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> Learning spells from scrolls
Should writing scrolls in spellbook grant xp?
Should writing scrolls in spellbook grant xp?
Yes, keep it as it is. [ 7 ] ** [58.33%]
No, remove the xp for learning spells [ 5 ] ** [41.67%]
Total Votes: 30
  
Sikret
post Oct 7 2008, 10:05 AM
Post #1


The Tactician
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Arguments and counter-arguments:

Arguments for option 1:

(I) We don't need to remove the xp granted by writing scrolls, because erasing spells from spellbook and writing them over and over again is a cheat and if a player intends to cheat, he will eventually use the console command or an editor to add xp to his characters when he sees that re-writing scrolls doesn't work for this purpose. So, why should we bother with removing the xp when there are other ways to cheat?

(II) The xp gained by learning spells from scrolls is a very nice and handy feature early in the game to help low level parties boost their xp to some extent (not by erasing and re-writing, of course). It's not the best choice to remove this handy feature just because some cheaters may abuse it. Blocking cheats is good, but only if it won't affect legitimate players' games in any way (in this case, it does).

Arguments for option 2:

(I) Players who play the game legitimately and do not practice erasing and rewriting scrolls won't notice any significant change in their game if we remove the xp granted by writing scrolls, because the total amount of xp a legitimate player gains from writing scrolls isn't that much in the entire game. He writes each spell only once and removing the xp won't affect his game. On the other hand, this change can appropriately block the xp exploit some players use. It's true that erasing spells and writing them over and over again is a cheat and doesn't actually have any difference with using the console command or editors to add xp to characters, but some misguided players do believe that there is a difference between these methods; as long as they can do something inside the game without using console commands or editors they think that it is fine. All in all, other players who don't abuse such exploits should not worry about this suggested tweak, because it won't affect their games in any noticeable way.

(II) Moreover, why should learning a spell grant thousands of xp at all (specially when even failing to learn it can be easily overcome by trying another scroll of the same spell again and again till success - not to mention the possibility to reload the game)?

(III) Since mages have an HLA to scribe scrolls, they have also unlimited number of scrolls in the game. In the progress report for IA v6, it is mentioned that scrolls gained via the HLA won't have any market price and can't be sold for infinite gold. When we block the exploits for infinite gold why should we not block it for infinite xp these scrolls can offer?

I hope that I have been fair in offering the arguments for both options. As for myself, I am honestly 50-50 and undecided. Both sides' arguments have merits. That's why I'm asking for your opinions.

Vote and send a reply containing your vote and your reasons as well (anonymous votes will be ignored).

Also, note that if you see the results before voting, you won't be able to vote afterwards.

Thanks.


--------------------
Improved Anvil




Cheating is not confined to using external software or the console commands. Abusing the flaws and limitations of the game engine to do something that a human Dungeon Master would not accept or allow is cheating.
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Sikret
post Oct 8 2008, 07:15 AM
Post #2


The Tactician
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Don't forget to consider Argument (II) for removing the xp in my initial post as well.
What it says (in more details) is as follows:

Does copying a spell from a scroll into the spellbook really deserve thousands of xp? Is that such a hard thing to do? Does it require any sort of thinking, planning or what?

You may answer that learning the spell is a mentally difficult thing to do for a mage and that's shown by the fact that there is always a chance to fail.

This answer could have been acceptable if we were in pnp AD&D, because in pnp, if you fail the first time you can't retry learning the same spell again until you can permanently boost your intelligence. In BG2, however, the failing chance is a mere joke; the mage is still allowed to try to learn the same spell over and over again using other scrolls of the same spell (I'm not even talking about the possibility to reload here).

To put it in other words, argument (II) in the initial post can be rephrased in two different ways, once in first order language (ingame language) and once in 2nd order language (meta-game language). Let's see how:

- Why does your mage deserve thousands of xp for the mere action of copying a spell from a scroll into a spellbook? (remembering the fact that even if she fails the first time, she can easily pick another scroll and retry)

- Why should you (as the player) deserve a slight progress and a slightly easier game (because of the xp your characters gain inside the game) just for right-clicking on a scroll? (this is the formulation in meta-language because your character inside the game doesn't right-click on anything). Of course, the first formulation which uses the ingame language is better, but this second formulation is not totally pointless either.

Any counter argument?


--------------------
Improved Anvil




Cheating is not confined to using external software or the console commands. Abusing the flaws and limitations of the game engine to do something that a human Dungeon Master would not accept or allow is cheating.
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Sikret   Learning spells from scrolls   Oct 7 2008, 10:05 AM
Gorwath   I voted for option 2. I don't see any major di...   Oct 7 2008, 10:52 AM
Vik   removing exp gained through scrolls then learning ...   Oct 7 2008, 10:55 AM
LZJ   I would vote to remove the XP for learning spells....   Oct 7 2008, 11:32 AM
shadan   I voted for option 1. If someone wants to cheat, t...   Oct 7 2008, 12:43 PM
Zarathustra   I also support option 1: (I) Cheaters will cheat ...   Oct 7 2008, 01:13 PM
Sikret   Thanks, everyone. Please keep introducing argumen...   Oct 7 2008, 01:53 PM
Zarathustra   The gold exploits have already been blocked in v...   Oct 7 2008, 02:10 PM
Nazar   I went for removing xp, but would also throw my ha...   Oct 7 2008, 02:12 PM
Arkain   Option 1 [...] if a player intends to cheat, he w...   Oct 7 2008, 06:26 PM
Sikret   Don't forget to consider Argument (II) for rem...   Oct 8 2008, 07:15 AM
Zarathustra   One could look at the XP as a reward for whatever ...   Oct 8 2008, 08:48 AM
lroumen   I wonder why you feel that you would need to chang...   Oct 8 2008, 11:05 AM
Zarathustra   As for a concrete suggestion. Is it possible to b...   Oct 8 2008, 11:41 AM
Sikret   Regardless, I think it's not illogical for a m...   Oct 8 2008, 11:50 AM
lroumen   Just to respond to this matter. Sorry for my late ...   Oct 10 2008, 06:03 PM
Sikret   If your mage clears a town of 1000 orcs. I don...   Oct 10 2008, 06:23 PM
Vuki   Sikret! For me it is very clear that you want...   Oct 8 2008, 12:06 PM
Sikret   For me it is very clear that you want to change it...   Oct 8 2008, 12:20 PM
Vuki   If it was so, why did I start this poll in the fir...   Oct 8 2008, 02:14 PM
Sikret   I hope that my vote was not deleted because I made...   Oct 8 2008, 02:34 PM
Vuki   How could it be that there are 16 votes but in som...   Oct 8 2008, 12:07 PM
DavidW   Posting to validate vote (my reasons aren't te...   Oct 8 2008, 10:01 PM
Ardanis   I always use Sim's DEFJAM to eliminate XP gain...   Oct 9 2008, 12:12 AM
Fillian   My vote is to leave it as it is, but I'd suppo...   Oct 9 2008, 03:36 AM
Sikret   Ok, thank you very much everyone for your input. W...   Oct 9 2008, 03:04 PM
Kerkes   ahm... I sell most of the scrolls... Money!...   Oct 21 2008, 09:28 AM
Raven   I voted to remove the xp for writing spells. I don...   Oct 25 2008, 10:06 AM


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