UB bug still present in v16, [split by Baronius] Options

[Baronius]

The bug was known for v15 already. Wouldn't it be easier to fix it in UB itself?

[This topic was split from this]

[Baronius]

It usually reflects a weak character, a weak personality who needs constant reassuring from other people. For example, Ancalagon_UK/proteus_za simply copied a part of Sikret's reply and pasted it to his post at G3, and commented it there. In other words, he brought it to a "friendly" ground where he can get support, because he needs the constant reassuring.

I suspect it's also about different forum policies, actually. For various reasons (which are perfectly reasonable; it's your site), threads reasonably often get closed down here - like that discussion you and I were having a while ago - whereas G3 doesn't delete posts. I'd probably have done something similar with my earlier argument (or at least kept a local copy to repost if necessary) if I'd remembered that your policies are different from what I'm used to - otherwise it can be awfully irritated when something you've thought carefully about and think worth saying gets lost.

First of all, only those threads get removed which (1): initial poster or the majority of posters doesn't obey the Terms of Use, or (2): are beset by trolls OR we believe there is a high chance it will tempt trolls (this follows from the ToU too though) and we can't guarantee enough moderator attention to it. We believed that the thread 'Baronius believes modding has become a "business"' might tempt trolls so the best was to take any public access to it -- however, this thread is still here, it has been up for a long time, because we don't see much risk for the time being that it might tempt trolls: we approach the same points and question here in a different way (I also try to be less harsh), so trolls won't find any pretext to come here. So we discuss the same points basically here too, but without the risk of being disturbed by trolls.

As far as your question is concerned: OK let's assume someone doesn't know what I've written above, and for some reason fears that his/her post would be deleted, so he/she copies it somewhere. This indeed doesn't have to be a weak personality, just someone who hasn't yet understood our policy (and there is no problem with that). On the other hand, when he/she copies the REPLY of a BWL mod developer (more precisely, a distinguished developer) from here, PASTES it on a different forum AND gives there a DIFFERENT reply to it there than here, it's not about being afraid of deleting one's post. It's taking someone else's words to a different place where he can get enough "support" from trolls and others who can't come here. Simple.


@Ardanis:

(As for the avatar of the buddy: no, IIRC the dog is not blue, but I may be wrong.)

For that certain matter, the word 'coercion' or 'manipulation' might be more suitable. I'm not a native speaker, so in this certain case, I might not have used the best word. On the other hand, generally, the example of e.g. Improved Anvil V1, or Vlad's mods might clarify what I meant:
- Improved Anvil V1 uses different methods than what the G3 folks would prefer (and which might make Improved Anvil compatible with their mods at the cost of changing Improved Anvil's several basic concepts)
- They come and keep bothering Sikret even when he repeatedly says that he wouldn't use their methods
- Certain G3 FP developers and certain other mod developers too start to spread false information or explicit lies about Improved Anvil on forums to convince (mislead) players not to try it ever
- The propaganda was relatively effective: even players who came (and still come) here often seem to have heard amazingly impossible things and lies about Improved Anvil

Same with Vlad's mods. He decided not to devote time to ensure compatibility with other mods and support the (bug-creating) G3 Fixpack, because he is a human too with an own life, and the mods are big. What's the result? Certain users are spreading lies about his mods.

Lies and manipulative, subtle statements.

And no, I don't want to get into a debate of the definition of a "lie" and "manipulative" -- I'm sure I'm using it in correct meaning. When someone says "Improved Anvil is built to deliberately break other mods" it's a lie. When a certain infamous user says "Sikret said Improved Anvil is the only bug-free mod" (and is shameless enough to say that it was an acceptable exaggeration), or when says "Sikret wanted his mod to be in ALL categories of the PPG Infinity Engine modlist", it's very manipulative (and practically a lie, see my next sentence). While the truth is, it was stated that Improved Anvil is the only *big* bug-free mod, the only big mod without serious bugs (one could argue about what a 'big' mod is, but this is not the point: it's a lie spreading that it was said "it's the only bugfree" mod). Similarly, according to our viewpoint (= mods could be added to more categories), Sikret found 5 categories from the 12 where Improved Anvil would fit. Five categories from 12 is less than 50%, and not "all" (i.e. 100&). It's manipulation and attempt to discredit the BWL modders who made the original statements.

Now from the point this becomes predictible (i.e. that you know that if you don't use what they ask you to use, then they will try to discredit you and your work in the eyes of people), it is quasi-blackmail: "If you don't follow the technical methods and guidelines we ask you to follow, you can expect us to spread lies about your work and to make a bad reputation for you. Up to you.". Of course, sometimes it's done by their third-party symphatizers, but even when they notice such things, they don't say: "No, that's incorrect. I believe ..., but not what he/she says". But instead, they rather prefer their point is supported even with lies by others. On a side note, If I read somewhere someone telling "SCS2 was created to steal players from Improved Anvil" or "DavidW states that Improved Anvil is a badly designed mod", I would be the first to clarify that those are pure lies.

On a side note, if this propaganda and behaviour wasn't so general, I might also be closer to willing to believe how DavidW interpreted that post in the "I hate this fix" thread (and generally, the whole thread). But now, based on the other experience, I still believe it's manipulative and quasi coercion, to make every mod developer learn how to edit out the fixes of the G3FP, and generally, to learn how to support G3FP. Not a recommendation: a manipulation. But it's needless to say more about this: even if that thread is completely different than what I see in it, what about the 20+ other examples (including those I listed above) about the manipulative statements and lies that are spread?

And the silent manipulation is very effective indeed. It's much more convincing than any harsh and loud arguments, no matter how valid and appropriate those harsh and loud arguments are. Much more convincing because players and mod developers get "convinced" (misled) implicitly, silently. One could ask why we don't do the same, i.e. trying to be more subtle and silent (because it's more effective). Well, that's simply not we. When we tell something, we do it in a straight way (like now), but then we won't start to make silent propaganda by using subtle statements, "accidently" dropped remarks, or by letting our supporters to spread lies even when we do know about the lies etc. That's not ethic and honest. That doesn't help the community to improve.

As I've said, the manipulation is effective -- let's just see the current situation. I'm sure many readers believe:

"The harsh and loud statements of Baronius do much harm to the community, and harm a real community effort, G3 Fixpack; on the other hand, the G3 FP developers he criticizes just try to do their best to help players and mod developers, they do everything for the benefit of the community".

Yeah, perhaps they believe that G3 FP is some giant benefit for the community, but the facts that they manipulate players and mod developers AND are convinced in the 100% superiority of their methods definitely do NOT benefit the community.

One might also believe: "How can Baronius talk about the benefit of community when these posts of him will split the community even more, instead?" You can believe me, dear reader, misleading players and mod developers, and silently brainwashing players that "our methods are the superior and those who don't use them are against 'community efforts' and 'cooperation'" does SPLIT the community much much more than any harsh statement.

Sounds like a conspiracy theory? No, there is no explicit conspiracy, but the whole thing happens implicitly, in a distributed way. And they're content with this.

The expression which e.g. G3 FP developers love to use ("community effort") is humbug in this case. It's part of the (implicitly happening) propaganda. They have never allowed the "community" to actively participate. "Everyone is invited to the G3 FP to post" and similar jokes. Yeah, you're invited to say what you want, but if they disagree you because your suggestion is against their favoured ideas, your suggestions go to the recycle bin. UNLESS they don't have to, because the discussion of such undesired suggestions was already infected by their support trolls.

Indeed, the support trolls. It's enough to see the thread where Wounded Lion suggested more thorough tests. They let some troll to write provoking and topic-disturbing statements. To distract the discussion from its focus. How is it possible that such trolls never write in threads where the discussion is about an issue SUPPORTED by the G3 FP developers?

The support trolls. It's enough to see the "offtopic Anvil discussion" or whatever thread at G3. If they really wanted exclusively the benefit of the community (and not just their own interests and popularity), they wouldn't allow a thread where mod developers and their work are ridiculed by some uneducated people who have nothing better to do and by those who have inferiority complex and can feel themselves important in this anonym virtual world.

Forum policy, regarding freedom? Humbug. "Freedom" for trolls to attack the topic of a benevolent mod developer (e.g. Wounded Lion) or "freedom" of Wounded Lion (and others) to share their thoughts without being distracted and bad-mouthed? Which is more beneficial to a community that is trying TO BUILD MODS:

(1) giving freedom to trolls to distract and invade MOD developers

or

(2) giving freedom to MOD developers to share their thoughts without being distracted and invaded by trolls?

A decision is always made. Freedom to everyone means anarchy. And indeed, the decision is made by them:

Double standard: if the MOD developer disagrees them in something, doesn't follow their methods in his or her mods, or suggests something they don't want to achknowledge/accept -- then it is policy (1).

For their favoured suggestions, favoured mods and their project's mod developers, the policy is (2) .


To cut a long story short: if they purely wanted to benefit the community (even if this harms the popularity of their favoured mods), they would give EQUAL chance to all mod developers, and wouldn't try to dictate their own (technical and non-technical) methods to the community at any cost. As long as this isn't done, their expression "community effort" is a humbug.

And again, the emberassing question: e.g. why wasn't G3 Fixpack revised and split to more mods (despite the fact that those who currently install ALL parts of it would be able to do the same even after the revision/split)? (Wouldn't it benefit the community?) Perhaps because it would need its developers to spend many hours (which now they use to "find" new "bugs" to be fixed) to verify & categorize the fixes and properly test the mod? Indeed, it would need work that is:
(1) nearly not as much fun as trying to find things to be "fixed" and "improved" -- testing and examining code is often boring and tireing
(2) revising the fixes instead of adding new ones wouldn't increase the popularity of the mod (and thus the website's visitor count), because players won't see NEW content; there would be no possibility to advertise 'hundreds of NEW fixes' and 'brand-new mod release'. Yeah, 'IMPROVED fixes' doesn't sound half as tempting as 'NEW fixes'.

They believe their concepts and methods are superior, they convinced lots of players and modders about this, AND they want to keep this situation at any cost.
For example, you DavidW might not understand my point here, because I think you aren't someone who believes your own methods to be superior to others'. Believe me or not, those certain G3 FP (and not just G3 FP) developers do think their methods are superior and perfect. And they are content with the fact they can abuse their reputation to manipulate the community.