UB bug still present in v16, [split by Baronius] Options

[Baronius]

The bug was known for v15 already. Wouldn't it be easier to fix it in UB itself?

[This topic was split from this]

[Baronius]

Ancalagon_UK, I would suggest to you to study the problem more thoroughly, because you've oversimplified several matters in your post, which reflects that you're not familiar with the topic, especially in a technical, scientific respect.

Nonetheless, here are some answers:

How does Fixpack affect you?

1. For example, we get constant attacks why we don't support it. On a certain gaming forum, if someone recommends G3 FP and say we prefer Baldurdash to it because G3 FP may break other mods, some supporters of them (like you) who believed all their propaganda suddenly starts to question us.

2. Supporters or sympathizers of G3 Fixpack were spreading (and some of them still probably spreads) lies about Improved Anvil and our other works. We wouldn't care about it, but many players arrive here with similar misbeliefs, which they read somewhere on a different forum.

3. BWL has a good credibility as far as technical problems and modding solutions are concerned, and it would be against the spirit of our core team to allow players and mod developers to be misled and misinformed by some populists who want to increase their mod's (and site's) reputation at any cost. As you can see, my initial train of thought about G3 Fixpack is always of technical nature, but after those arguments are ignored and lies are spread that "it's a rant, Baronius doesn't like the Fixpack", I have no other choice than to clarify that it's all about propaganda. So, it belongs to our modding activity to provide credible technical, "scientific" information about mods to all mod developers and players interested in it -- we don't allow populist and other modding 'politics' interests to interfere (yes, the authors of G3 FP spread various untrue things about modding, such as that "patching is always superior to overwriting", "all mods can be made technically compatible without changing their concept" etc.)

The thing to remember is that, despite its stated purpose (to fix things), it is still a mod. Thus, it is NOT compulsory for anyone to use.

It isn't, but:
1. Thanks to their propaganda, most players believe it IS compulsory to use it, and we tend to get players all the time who install G3 Fixpack even for Improved Anvil, and when we enlighten them, they are surprised. One of them, a new player, believed -- after reading the Improved Anvil readme -- that Baldurdash is actually the BG2 Fixpack, so he installed the BG2 Fixpack. No wonder, as it's advertised everywhere as pinned topics, and they convinced/misled everyone that it's a fixpack with crucial, essential fixes, and its name also implies the same: "BG2 Fixpack", the ultimate fixpack (let alone the misleading slogan "Baldurdash and a few hundred fixes more" -- they even abuse the name of Baldurdash).
2. Thanks to their propaganda, most players believe lies such as that serious bugs are unavoidable (and e.g. they even influenced plainab, who said "there is no way to know what the problems will be until they arise"). Most players don't realize that a high number of bugs which third-party mods seems to have while G3 Fixpack is installed are actually caused by G3 Fixpack. They believe that the bugs that appear are third-party mod bugs (because they seem to appear in third-party mods indeed, but caused by the G3 Fixpack), or if they are G3 Fixpack's bugs, then it's natural ("because every mod has bugs, and it's only Baronius who doesn't like the G3FP and tells that there are too many bugs").
3. They blackmail mod developers to use the G3 Fixpack and learn how to remove its fixes if the third-party mod would be broken or negatively affected by a fix. If you dare not to use the G3 Fixpack, you can expect retaliation and harassment. This is what happened with Improved Anvil V1 as well.


They abuse a simple fact to keep their supporter base (i.e. players like you) in terms of modding 'politics' as well: most players don't understand the technical bases of my trains of thought (mod dependencies, game interfaces, compatibility theory), so they just understand that for "some reason" I don't recommend it. After this point, it's easy to convince them "Baronius' post is just a rant, he doesn't the Fixpack [due to personal preferences]". And players -- including you -- and many mod developers believe this.

You've addressed the following statements/questions to Sikret, but since they're general questions, and I agree with all of Sikret's claims, and this is a public forum, I would like to give answers.

Testing is definitely worth doing in a software development environment, but it takes a lot of time, something that these guys, who give their time for free, dont have too much of.

This is also a common misbelief what those certain G3 FP spread for players. "We have not enough free time". (It reminds of their other favourite justification for the bugs of their untested but over-advertised work: "bugs are natural, inevitable". Indeed they are, but it does matter how many and how serious.) So no, Ancalagon_UK, proper testing IS possible, if they allocate time for it. Yes, it significantly DELAYS the releases, but that's how it works. It results in slower development, but the released work will have quality. But they didn't want and don't want to delay releases, because it might be disadvantageous to their visitor count and popularity. The industry must be running with a high performance!

Camdawg et al dont work for free, its unreasonable to expect testing

If they advertise it as the standard base mod for all game installations for all players, and the standard base mod for third-party mods, then it IS reasonable to test your work before you give it out of your hands. (On a side note, in my culture, you're taught that you should do precise and accurate work, if you want your conscience to be clear.)

If you dont like the fact that it is not tested before being released, are you willing to do anything about it?

Yes, we keep informing players and mod developers about it, so they know they play/use an untested work, and the bugs they believe to belong to third-party mods (due to the propaganda they hear from G3 FP developers) are actually caused by G3 Fixpack.

If you imply that we should volunteer and test the G3 Fixpack, then no thanks -- even if we had the time, it would be hopeless because G3 FP has an incorrect architecture, and would have to be revised from scratch. They made the problem for themselves, they should be who correct it. However, they don't intend to, because they are content with the fact that they misled tons of players and mod developers that they do their best to ensure the quality of that mod, and that their methods are superior.

this is more than just professional disagreement for you

As I've said, it is a professional disagreement, but there is no way to fight with propaganda and manipulation with technical reasoning, because most players don't understand the technical reasons, while it's easy for them to believe the propaganda ("Baronius and Sikret don't like the Fixpack"). So when we say it's manipulation and propaganda, we say it because that's what is happening -- but we wouldn't emphasize it if they ever tried to answer our "professional" i.e. technical arguments, questions about their work. They ignore them, then mislead players that we criticize them for other reasons than technical disagreement. Admittedly very subtle.

[DavidW]

3. They blackmail mod developers to use the G3 Fixpack and learn how to remove its fixes if the third-party mod would be broken or negatively affected by a fix.

I'm replying to this with some trepidation as tempers seem to run high very easily... but I think you may be misinterpreting Nythrun's post. She says

Q: [I don't want to edit the fixpack to remove bugs I don't like]A: Well, that's okay too. You can play Baldur's Gate 2 without even the official patch if you want to to - the game will crash more, and lag more, and have more chances to muck up, but if you're getting by without it, then go have fun. And if unzipping the old non-WeiDU version of Baldurdash into your override folder after running the offical patch is as much programming as you want to do, then do that, and go have fun. And if you prefer one of the WeiDU versions of Baldurdash or the Sorceror's Place fixpack, then use those and go have fun. None of this is worth leeching away your enjoyment of the game. It does mean that you'll miss all of the additional bugfixes in this Fixpack and that the people who post here may not be able to help you with problems if you do encounter them - but it's your choice.

Which I read as saying: use whatever bugfix you want. Don't even use the official bugfix if you don't want to (though the game will crash and lag more if you don't use the official bugfix). If you prefer any version of Baldurdash, use that. Of course if you don't use this mod, you'll miss out on its content and its authors will be less able to help you.

(I think it's aimed at players rather than developers, btw).