"Philosophical" questions, What is a cheesy method? Bug or feature? Options

[Vuki]

I created this topic to discuss the "philosophical" aspect of the game. We can discuss here questions like:

- is a modification really needed or not?
- is something cheesy or cheeting or just a clever trick?
- game balance
- is an actual gap a bug or a feature?
- and so on ...

This topic will be maybe a bit too theoretical but I do not think it is a problem. We need such a place - as the discussions from the last 2-3 weeks prove it.

This post has been edited by Vuki: Aug 11 2008, 08:34 PM

[Kerkes]

Very nice topic! Bravo!

IMO =not the apsolute truth

casting spells from off-screen - pure cheese. I wrote a post some while ago about this and how you'd do if enemies did that to you. I still remember Firkraag from vanilla game falling to wand of cloudkill without ever bothering to see who is using it. You can't expect computer AI to have a sript as smart as a real human player, no matter how good AI is it will probably always be exploitable. as for drow ambush, the thing that you cannot pre-buff actually makes the battle much more interesting than the usual. Besides, they don't cast spells immedialtely, you just get dispelled off-screen. It is insanely hard, usually forces a numer of reloads but is well made. I think it will be nerfed in IA6.

abusing area - imagine this - 2 enemies (for example, take elemental golems) are standing on a narrow bridge. Behind them, thus out of your reach are 2 high level figh/mages beating the crap out of you. That wouldn't be fair. and that's how enemies usually fare when you do that.
But, I do believe that in IA final battle it is completely justified to abuse it. It is used in strategy games, but IA is more of a tactical thing. Defeating hard battles usually is much more dependant on what you do in a round and not if your enemies can reach you or not. besides, if they can't reach you, you can't reach them also. I remember a line from "call of duty 4" which says "tracers work both ways":) . for surprises, I think backstab is a very nice surprise and is as such covered in BG

stealing quest items - I too never use it, but it is probably a nice RPG aspect of the game

prebuffing - remember that mage Edwin sends you to kill? (Rayic I believe). In vanilla game you needed something like this (with no mages in party, just cleric) - remove fear because he casts symbol fear, free action for symbol stun(or PW, don't remember), death ward for FOD and disin, prot fire for sunfire. After ALL THAT he'd cast remove magic (finaly!) and then try to charm you and start castin mm like there's no tomorrow. He usually died after his pfmw expired if you don't bother switching to normal wpns. well, if you know in advance what tactiscs/spells enemy uses you can buff up perfectly, and yeah, I agree that's perhaps cheese. But since your fighters and clerics usually get dispelled asap perhaps it's less cheese in IA, and is a thing (amongst others) which makes mages so powerful compared to any other class in the game. But I find that much neccesary for most of the battles, thus reducing the number of reloads greatly as you get to know the game better. I don't believe any IA player ever managed to defeat, for example, Twisted rune battle without at least one reload, and even I know the battle pretty well, it still forces reloads. You just don't know what's coming. But I do think that it's impossible and would ruin the game if enemies chose tactics and spells at random, due to the fact that some spell combos just work very good and enemies already do use them. IMO, clerics do as much they can offensively in IA, ther's really no going beyond that (well, maybe energy blades). as for non-buffed enemies (dracolich), I agree, it would be nice. But not for all battles. Draco is alone, and you're probably playing with a 6 persons party... you can buff some your chars, kill his protections and attack him phisically all in one round, making it a walk-over..

Again, a very interesting topic! Hope to see more interesting posts here soon.

This post has been edited by Kerkes: Aug 12 2008, 08:53 AM

[Vuki]

Very nice topic! Bravo!

Thanks.

casting spells from off-screen - pure cheese. I wrote a post some while ago about this and how you'd do if enemies did that to you. I still remember Firkraag from vanilla game falling to wand of cloudkill without ever bothering to see who is using it. You can't expect computer AI to have a sript as smart as a real human player, no matter how good AI is it will probably always be exploitable.

No, I do not think that it is a valid argument. For example enemies can reduce your fire resistance while you are not able to do it. So, is it cheesy from their side? I do not think so. They have much more special abilities then you and therefore it is valid that you use tactics that they are not able to use. Firkraag is another story: I have written in my post that whenever the enemies do no not react to your spell it is cheesy and should not be used. That is very clear I think.

as for drow ambush, the thing that you cannot pre-buff actually makes the battle much more interesting than the usual. Besides, they don't cast spells immedialtely, you just get dispelled off-screen. It is insanely hard, usually forces a numer of reloads but is well made. I think it will be nerfed in IA6.

I did not complaint about it. However I do not understand why you do not complaint that enemies do something that is cheesy. Because it is cheesy definitely.

abusing area - imagine this - 2 enemies (for example, take elemental golems) are standing on a narrow bridge. Behind them, thus out of your reach are 2 high level figh/mages beating the crap out of you. That wouldn't be fair. and that's how enemies usually fare when you do that.
But, I do believe that in IA final battle it is completely justified to abuse it. It is used in strategy games, but IA is more of a tactical thing. Defeating hard battles usually is much more dependant on what you do in a round and not if your enemies can reach you or not. besides, if they can't reach you, you can't reach them also. I remember a line from "call of duty 4" which says "tracers work both ways":) . for surprises, I think backstab is a very nice surprise and is as such covered in BG

Why the hell would it be not fair? This is a fair tactics and I would be very happy to see that enemies use it. There are very rair occasion where you (or enemies) can use it and it would be nice to see that they use it. And again: this is not a reason that they do not use this tactics. That is your advantage. Their advantage is their superior abilities.

stealing quest items - I too never use it, but it is probably a nice RPG aspect of the game

I agree with you. I have also never use it. You can ask while I complaint: the reason is that it is a theoretical topic.

prebuffing - remember that mage Edwin sends you to kill? (Rayic I believe). In vanilla game you needed something like this (with no mages in party, just cleric) - remove fear because he casts symbol fear, free action for symbol stun(or PW, don't remember), death ward for FOD and disin, prot fire for sunfire. After ALL THAT he'd cast remove magic (finaly!) and then try to charm you and start castin mm like there's no tomorrow. He usually died after his pfmw expired if you don't bother switching to normal wpns. well, if you know in advance what tactiscs/spells enemy uses you can buff up perfectly, and yeah, I agree that's perhaps cheese. But since your fighters and clerics usually get dispelled asap perhaps it's less cheese in IA, and is a thing (amongst others) which makes mages so powerful compared to any other class in the game. But I find that much neccesary for most of the battles, thus reducing the number of reloads greatly as you get to know the game better. I don't believe any IA player ever managed to defeat, for example, Twisted rune battle without at least one reload, and even I know the battle pretty well, it still forces reloads. You just don't know what's coming. But I do think that it's impossible and would ruin the game if enemies chose tactics and spells at random, due to the fact that some spell combos just work very good and enemies already do use them. IMO, clerics do as much they can offensively in IA, ther's really no going beyond that (well, maybe energy blades). as for non-buffed enemies (dracolich), I agree, it would be nice. But not for all battles. Draco is alone, and you're probably playing with a 6 persons party... you can buff some your chars, kill his protections and attack him phisically all in one round, making it a walk-over..

I do not understand completely your words here. I have written in my post that it is necessery in the game and I am forced to use it. But it is still cheesy in the case when you do not know what is behind you. One very good example is the first drow ambush. You are in a cave and nothing happen at all. You walk there and suddenly they attack you. If you buff when you leave Sahuagin city then it is ok if you still have those buffs. It is even valid that you renew those buffs. But it is not fair that you do not buff before entering Underdark but then suddenly in the middle of the cave you buff. That is absolutely unfair, if you do it in a normal paper-based adventure and I am your DM then I would be really angry and I would ask you why the hell you buff when nothing happened. And I would be sure that you looked at my paper and therefore you cheated. Yes, prebuffing is necessery in that battle but it is unrealistic and it is a real cheat.

The vanilla game also force you in some cases to do it but not too much cases. IA force you to do it (to cheat) before almost every battle. I think battles can be tuned to avoid it: make the enemies weaker but dispel your short-lasting buffs. That is a fair solution. And by the way, tell me who enjoy prebuffing? It is really monoton and their is very little fun in it (only fun is to optimize your spells to allow maximum prebuffing and to find out what is really needed). But you have to do it hundreds of time and it became really boring. That is the only apsect of IA that I do not like. And it can be avoid if prebuffing is not allowed, enemies are retuning to the new conditions (I mean weaker enemies and less prebuffing). That way you do not have to repeat the boring prebuffing process (and you do not have to cheat) every time and the figths would be still fun. Maybe more fun because you have to make more decision.

[Sikret]

For example enemies can reduce your fire resistance while you are not able to do it.

No humanoid enemy has such an ability. Actually, only red dragons, demon lords and noble efreets have the ability to lower fire resistance. If this is your argument, then keep it only to justify yourself against those rare and few enemies (though I don't agree with your argument even for those enemies, because they don't use them against you before you are actually engaged in combat).

The only problem that enemies have powers and abilities that you can never archieved.

This is not true (except for vert particular monsters for whom it is justified to have abilities you don't have-- see above)

Firkraag is another story: I have written in my post that whenever the enemies do no not react to your spell it is cheesy and should not be used. That is very clear I think.

Firkraag does react properly against hostile spells from distance. Kerkes was talking about the vanilla Firkraag to make a general point.

BTW, enemy spellcasters do not renew their buffs and therefore you should not do it because it is not fair. I do not think it is really valid argument.

Who says that enemy spellcasters do not refresh their protections? If they have the spell among their memorized spells, they will use it. If they do not have it, it means they have something else instead which they will use. So, there is no problem if the party refreshes any spell, because the enemy does so as well if he has the spell memorized.

If you remember, a while ago and in a different topic I told you that you are too hasty to make general suggestions and objections without finishing the mod for even one single time. At that time you seemed to agree with me, but now I see that you are repeating it.

This post has been edited by Sikret: Aug 12 2008, 11:34 AM

[Vuki]

No humanoid enemy has such an ability. Actually, only red dragons, demon lords and noble efreets have the ability to lower fire resistance. If this is your argument, then keep it only to justify yourself against those rare and few enemies (though I don't agree with your argument even for those enemies, because they don't use them against you before you are actually engaged in combat).

You misunderstood me here. The point is not that they are humanoids or not, the point is that they use something that you do not do. The same is with casting offscreen: you do something that they are not able to do. But the best example is the second drow ambush: they dispel your protections. This is very-very similar to the offscreen casting (you do something before they can react to it). Please do not misunderstood me: I am not against it, I have no problem it. I just would like to make clear that the "they do not use it, so you should not use it" is not a valid argument.

Firkraag does react properly against hostile spells from distance. Kerkes was talking about the vanilla Firkraag to make a general point.

Yes, I know it or at least I was sure about it (I did not kill Firkraag yet). I did not say anything like this in my post, it was just a general comment that such a case is cheesy.

Who says that enemy spellcasters do not refresh their protections? If they have the spell among their memorized spells, they will use it. If they do not have it, it means they have something else instead which they will use. So, there is no problem if the party refreshes any spell, because the enemy does so as well if he has the spell memorized.

If you remember, a while ago and in a different topic I told you that you are too hasty to make general suggestions and objections without finishing the mod for even one single time. At that time you seemed to agree with me, but now I see that you are repeating it.

Then in that particular case I was wrong. Wow! I made something like 10-20 comments and I was not right in one case. But what about the others? You did not react to some important comments of my like for example prebuffing.

[Sikret]

No humanoid enemy has such an ability. Actually, only red dragons, demon lords and noble efreets have the ability to lower fire resistance. If this is your argument, then keep it only to justify yourself against those rare and few enemies (though I don't agree with your argument even for those enemies, because they don't use them against you before you are actually engaged in combat).

You misunderstood me here. The point is not that they are humanoids or not, the point is that they use something that you do not do.

And I said that it is not true unless for very few and particular monsters. I also added that even those monsters don't use those abilities before the battle actually begins (= they play fair with you). But I also said that if you think that your argument is sound (I don't think that it is sound, but if you think so), then just use the argument to justify casting spells from distance against those few enemies. You can't use that argument for all cases and against every enemy. The enemies who have abilities which you can't have are very rare. You can't make a general argument for all battles and all enemies just because a few dragons and demons have special abilities.

But the best example is the second drow ambush: they dispel your protections. This is very-very similar to the offscreen casting (you do something before they can react to it).

They don't do any such thing. It's an invisible trap which does that with your protections. <sigh>!

You did not react to some important comments of my like for example prebuffing.

I did react. I said prebuffing is fair, because you can do it as well. If you don't agree, then let's agree to disagree and leave it.

I told you once and I repeat again here that in order to be able to give any useful suggestions to me, you need to have a good idea of what is going on in the game when IA is installed. You really need to complete the whole game for a couple of times.

[Vuki]

They don't do any such thing. It's an invisible trap which does that with your protections. <sigh>!

It does not matter how you implement it in the game, only the result count. But agian before you misinterpret my words: I have absolutely no problem with it. It is just an example to argue against my opinion.

You did not react to some important comments of my like for example prebuffing.

I did react. I said prebuffing is fair, because you can do it as well. If you don't agree, then let's agree to disagree and leave it.

You told that "enemy prebuffing is fair because you can do it", but ok I did not read it very carefully and it can be interpreted also in the other way aroung (you can prebuff because they can do it). I will cover it in a new post because I forgot to mention something yesterday evening. BTW, you still not react on some of my others comment (like thief special ability). Of course you do not have to react to them, but would be nice because I am interested in your opinion.

I told you once and I repeat again here that in order to be able to give any useful suggestions to me, you need to have a good idea of what is going on in the game when IA is installed. You really need to complete the whole game for a couple of times.

And I repeat it again that you were right in one case but not right in other cases. In one of my comment this is true but not in the other 10-15 cases.