"Philosophical" questions, What is a cheesy method? Bug or feature? Options

[Vuki]

I created this topic to discuss the "philosophical" aspect of the game. We can discuss here questions like:

- is a modification really needed or not?
- is something cheesy or cheeting or just a clever trick?
- game balance
- is an actual gap a bug or a feature?
- and so on ...

This topic will be maybe a bit too theoretical but I do not think it is a problem. We need such a place - as the discussions from the last 2-3 weeks prove it.

This post has been edited by Vuki: Aug 11 2008, 08:34 PM

[lroumen]

Can this be added to the debate?

Cheesy foes!

Prebuffing foes (Forcespell)
I don't fully favour this. If they know you're coming (samia, drow encounters, bountyhunters) or can know that you're coming (a boss in a stronghold such as the tob baalspawn), let them prebuff to an extent (i.e. limited amount of buffs and not always the same ones). If they don't know that a powerful party is coming to clear them out of their hiding place or they first send you away (beastmaster), don't prebuff them (i.e. den of 7 veils, sewer party). Contingencies are always fine in such encounters though.
Forcespell prebuffing is introduced to counter player prebuffs, but it's idea far from flawless and can become a drag on gameplay. If I scout out a party, they don't see me and I want to engage with a surprise attack, I certainly prebuff... however when they forcespell prebuff right after I "surprise them", I find that they are majorly cheating in its purest form.


Certain foes carrying too many high level scrolls or just too many scrolls.
Whereas it may end up in very nice combat, I don't think that there should be so many foes that carry 5+ scrolls of ruby ray, breach, timestop, protection from magical weapons or whatnot. It only provides the party with too many spell scrolls to cast for their own. I would change it so that they carry only 1-2 scrolls of these spells max and these should be high priority use as well. That way, the party really needs to work hard to get them (i.e. get a quick kill). If really you want scrolls to be found, maybe a trapped chest near the foe would be an option (and the foe going hostile when the chest is fondled with).


Foe mages using very similar spell scripts:
A very high amount of mages in IA now use a combination of stoneskin, improved invisibility, immunity to divination, followed by the casting of emotion, chaos, deathspell and sometimes some other area disable spells followed by flame arrows and they all carry breach/ruby ray. A large amount of high level mages also favour the use of chain contingency triple abi-dalzim. I think the variety of mage behaviour should increase. Whereas these spells are powerful I don't expect every mage in the world to know them or to use the same combination of spells. There may be some copy-cats out there, but I'd be more happy if there was some uniqueness to it.


PS: feel free to remove comments/suggestions if they're too much off-topic

This post has been edited by lroumen: Aug 12 2008, 10:00 AM

[Raven]

Prebuffing foes (Forcespell)
I don't fully favour this. If they know you're coming (samia, drow encounters, bountyhunters) or can know that you're coming (a boss in a stronghold such as the tob baalspawn), let them prebuff to an extent (i.e. limited amount of buffs and not always the same ones). If they don't know that a powerful party is coming to clear them out of their hiding place or they first send you away (beastmaster), don't prebuff them (i.e. den of 7 veils, sewer party). Contingencies are always fine in such encounters though.

I think battles would be far too easy if the enemy didn't prebuff. The same would apply if contingency-type spells had to carry defensive spells rather than offensive ones. Personally I don't really care about any justification for enemy prebuffing. As far as I'm concerned any 'unfair' advantage the enemies gain is offset by the intelligence of the player.

Certain foes carrying too many high level scrolls or just too many scrolls.

I agree about this.

Foe mages using very similar spell scripts:
A very high amount of mages in IA now use a combination of stoneskin, improved invisibility, immunity to divination, followed by the casting of emotion, chaos, deathspell and sometimes some other area disable spells followed by flame arrows and they all carry breach/ruby ray. A large amount of high level mages also favour the use of chain contingency triple abi-dalzim. I think the variety of mage behaviour should increase. Whereas these spells are powerful I don't expect every mage in the world to know them or to use the same combination of spells. There may be some copy-cats out there, but I'd be more happy if there was some uniqueness to it.

lroumen, how much of the mod have you actually played? I find there is more variation in spell casting later on.

[Sikret]

Prebuffing foes (Forcespell)
I don't fully favour this. If they know you're coming (samia, drow encounters, bountyhunters) or can know that you're coming (a boss in a stronghold such as the tob baalspawn), let them prebuff to an extent (i.e. limited amount of buffs and not always the same ones). If they don't know that a powerful party is coming to clear them out of their hiding place or they first send you away (beastmaster), don't prebuff them (i.e. den of 7 veils, sewer party). Contingencies are always fine in such encounters though.

I think battles would be far too easy if the enemy didn't prebuff. The same would apply if contingency-type spells had to carry defensive spells rather than offensive ones. Personally I don't really care about any justification for enemy prebuffing. As far as I'm concerned any 'unfair' advantage the enemies gain is offset by the intelligence of the player.

This is generally a valid and true point. But in this particular case, I don't even agree that enemy prebuffing should be considered 'unfair'. As far as you can do the same thing, it's fair.

As mentioned by others and by me in my previous post, abusing area structure and casting spells from distance (offscreen) are both cheesy and unfair actions exactly because the enemy doesn't do the same with you.

Play fair. Fight fairly. Don't try to find a way to justify cheesy actions with imaginary scenarios which never actually happen in the game (ex: being attacked by arrows when standing in the clearing and such things; we don't have any such battle in IA).