Regarding the game play (EDITED MAY 15, 2008), you'll see Options

[Bereth Darkides]

I have rewrote this 5 times because I am non too happy with the extreme game balance problem.
Is there anyway to tone down the power and or numbers of the nuclear skeleton warriors I am facing (at 9th-10th lvl) that does not include playing outside of core rules!

HOLY FAK!

You see I really hate having to cheat.

(PS,,, Vlad what were you thinking)?


(EDITED TODAY GO TO PAGE 3)

This post has been edited by Bereth Darkides: May 15 2008, 07:35 PM

[ClefairyTorii]

1st)Trolls only have or are considered to be able to hit +1 required to hit creatures (all works into game balance)
2nd) Trolls would be instantly enthralled and then controlled. Mere appearance of this creature would cause the troll to bolt (ie no chance to win) or serve it!
3rd)Even lesser Baetazu are +2 required to hit
4th) Same applies to the Taran'ri (Baetazu's natural enemy)
5th) Can you recreate a new creature? Sure you can, but you need to keep it in respect of the ecology of the creature. ie. there will probably be only one of them due to the intellect of a troll (almost mindless creatures often controll by beholders and other undead creatures like Liches), but they are completely territorial and despise being controlled (Nalia's dungeon should be your clue, ie. there was only one).

1) I see no reason why a Troll couldn't have +2, or whatever the DM wished. Again, the books are not meant to be followed word for word because certain players memorize stats and it ruins the game because they already "know" what should be what. Trolls could be intelligent, they could have +2 hands, they could have flamethrowers, it all depends on the DM and the game they are playing.

2 & 3) However, if we want to be rules lawyers, Lesser Baatezu do not have these properties. Barbazu, Abishai, Eriynes, Spinagons for example, all have either no magical weapon requirements or +1. This is according to the Planescape: Monstrous Compendium Appendix. One might say that BG2 is mainly "Forgotten Realms" but there were many Planescape references in the game and Planescape would have the most in-depth info on the Lower Planar creatures.

4) Didn't bother to read the stats for Tanar'ri.

5) As explained in #1, I see no reason why a Troll couldn't be an intelligent force to be reckoned with in a particular setting. An ancient tribe of intelligent Trolls that finally decided to expand their territories is not an "unrealistic" campaign setting imo.

In the end, it sounds like you are a rules lawyer. This is probably due to the fact that you probably did alot of DM work also. That being said I'm positive you understand why a DM would change the properties of the creatures. This whole thread is a perfect example of why Vlad made the game the way it is. When you zoned into Dragon's Eye you saw the Lizard Men and immediately thought, "Time to whoop some Lizard Man ass" since you "know" how strong a lizard man should be. Well, Vlad threw you a curve ball and guess what... they aren't push overs. That imo is a perfect example of good DMing. Surprising the players while still keeping the game playable. (Which it is)

You could argue endlessly on why Lizard Men and Trolls "shouldn't" be as strong as they are. However you could also argue why they should. This is because in AD&D 2ndEd, the DM can do whatever he or she wants.

[Bereth Darkides]

1st)Trolls only have or are considered to be able to hit +1 required to hit creatures (all works into game balance)
2nd) Trolls would be instantly enthralled and then controlled. Mere appearance of this creature would cause the troll to bolt (ie no chance to win) or serve it!
3rd)Even lesser Baetazu are +2 required to hit
4th) Same applies to the Taran'ri (Baetazu's natural enemy)
5th) Can you recreate a new creature? Sure you can, but you need to keep it in respect of the ecology of the creature. ie. there will probably be only one of them due to the intellect of a troll (almost mindless creatures often controll by beholders and other undead creatures like Liches), but they are completely territorial and despise being controlled (Nalia's dungeon should be your clue, ie. there was only one).

1) I see no reason why a Troll couldn't have +2, or whatever the DM wished. Again, the books are not meant to be followed word for word because certain players memorize stats and it ruins the game because they already "know" what should be what. Trolls could be intelligent, they could have +2 hands, they could have flamethrowers, it all depends on the DM and the game they are playing.

2 & 3) However, if we want to be rules lawyers, Lesser Baatezu do not have these properties. Barbazu, Abishai, Eriynes, Spinagons for example, all have either no magical weapon requirements or +1. This is according to the Planescape: Monstrous Compendium Appendix. One might say that BG2 is mainly "Forgotten Realms" but there were many Planescape references in the game and Planescape would have the most in-depth info on the Lower Planar creatures.

4) Didn't bother to read the stats for Tanar'ri.

5) As explained in #1, I see no reason why a Troll couldn't be an intelligent force to be reckoned with in a particular setting. An ancient tribe of intelligent Trolls that finally decided to expand their territories is not an "unrealistic" campaign setting imo.

In the end, it sounds like you are a rules lawyer. This is probably due to the fact that you probably did alot of DM work also. That being said I'm positive you understand why a DM would change the properties of the creatures. This whole thread is a perfect example of why Vlad made the game the way it is. When you zoned into Dragon's Eye you saw the Lizard Men and immediately thought, "Time to whoop some Lizard Man ass" since you "know" how strong a lizard man should be. Well, Vlad threw you a curve ball and guess what... they aren't push overs. That imo is a perfect example of good DMing. Surprising the players while still keeping the game playable. (Which it is)

You could argue endlessly on why Lizard Men and Trolls "shouldn't" be as strong as they are. However you could also argue why they should. This is because in AD&D 2ndEd, the DM can do whatever he or she wants.

Be carefull now, do not get confused between 3rd edition rules and 2nd edition rules. They are ntohing like each other. You miss the point about the Trolls. Balance is the point. I even said sure upgrade the troll if you wish but instead EVERY troll ahs been upgaraded, and this is not balanced. I have three fighters in my party for instance, but they are USELESS agains't these creatures that have been given vast improvements. In reality the DM for example has rendered my fighters as useless attackes who stand there to take the punishment but can hardly deliver any themselves!

What is happening is you guys are confusing DM discretion and complete game alteration.

The scenarios I have given are totaly implementable within the games scope. I am suggesting that these changes can be done with the games tools and boundaries. I am going to be picking up my Monsterous Manual this weekend, so I will scan it for your specifications as for the page. Do not try to tell me there is no + required to hit on dragons, don't even go there!. In the core game this was set (even if it was implented only by immunity to weapons within the games scope). You are cunfusing what is in the game vs the actual core rules.
Even vampires in the game now are +1 required to hit. Give it a go you will see.

[DavidW]

Do not try to tell me there is no + required to hit on dragons, don't even go there!. In the core game this was set (even if it was implented only by immunity to weapons within the games scope). You are cunfusing what is in the game vs the actual core rules.

Sure, some dragons cast protection spells, as TheBigg pointed out. But I don't think any actually cast spells that make them immune to normal weapons (certainly the shadow dragon doesn't; it's immune to magical weapons but not to normal ones).

Even vampires in the game now are +1 required to hit. Give it a go you will see.

It varies, actually. The weakest ones are affected by normal weapons (Ulvaryl in the starting dungeon, for instance); the strongest need +3 weapons to hit. (As I recall, the 2nd edition rule is a flat +2).

I'm not trying to make any particularly deep point here. There's nothing wrong with wanting to play a game that adheres strictly to the 2nd edition AD&D core rules. But BG2 isn't such a game. It takes the 2nd edition rules as a starting point and then feels pretty free to muck with them for the sake of overall balance and gameplay. Which, come to think of it, is what I normally do when I do PnP roleplaying games.

Actually, I think there are two points being mixed up here:

(i) strict adherence to the letter of the AD&D ruleset.
(ii) adherence to the flavour of the FR setting.

And really, I think your point is stronger with respect to (ii) than to (i). Replacing all the trolls with by-the-book, totally-legal 25th level wizards wouldn't exactly help, after all.