Compatibility of TS v6.11, and general problems, [Topic split by Vlad, move by Baronius] Options

[cmorgan]

Currently reviewing TS v6.11 code alongside DR code to look for what could be causing hassles. ETA on summary is 6 weeks unless I am sidetracked (plenty of stuff going on) - please feel free to drop off specific problems on G3 or PPG or SHS boards.

(IA compatibility is a completely different question, please see the readme in that mod for more information).

While each of us in the IE community are allowed their own opinions, I think a constructive way of addressing those questions would to be to go to the NPC mod makers in question, and ask the same question. My current Tutu and BG games run with a large mod loadout for testing, and they all work extremely well, including several BWL mods (TGCep1 and Herbs and potions, and Jastey's Slime Quest on Tutu). At SHS, there is a section of MegaModders who successfully handle various versions of BP/BGT/etc., incorporating TS and NEJ, etc, on the same installs as many other NPCs from PPG and G3, et al.

I understand the frustration of two opposing philosophies of modding, but I am afraid that the choice of words indicating that development of G3 mods makes them widely incompatible is neither accurate nor fair. Nor is the development process a short one; widespread testing among several platforms, with anywhere between a handful of beta testers and an entire set of 12 or so folks specifically providing testing and feedback (depending on the mod, of course). Cooperation among teams of coders and an open policy of producing joint public code and testing it, then writing up tutorials on it and updating it with feedback allows modders access to many helpers, making coding review a strong and vibrant process.

The way to get folks to be able to identify the specific incompatibilities and give information on tracking the difficulty down is to experience the problem, get a savegame, and write up what the specific dialogue/action was that was taken. Then the modders in question can attempt to isolate and fix whatever is causing the trouble (assuming they wish to be friendly enough to help eachother out).

[Baronius]

No problem, I didn't say that specific incompatibilities shouldn't be addressed by joint effort. E.g. Sikret and aVENGER did such a thing too, to my knowledge.

Nor is the development process a short one; widespread testing among several platforms, with anywhere between a handful of beta testers and an entire set of 12 or so folks specifically providing testing and feedback (depending on the mod, of course).

It's not just about testing; it's about theory, methodology and guidelines. The problems with this are excellently reflected by the G3 Fixpack, which still hasn't been split to two mods up to now -- despite the fact it's now obvious for everyone that it ceases the possibility for mods even to be compatible with the original game by introducing and changing too many dependencies. These problems can only be addressed in "reactive" ways (based on reports, tests, ...), everyone can see the frequency of bug/problem reports on certain G3, SHS and PPG mod forums.

So verifying and adjusting code is not sufficient to write highly reliable mods. (Especially because coding, implementation is the very last step of development.) Even bigger G3 mods are usually compatible to each other, mostly because there is a big cooperation among its creators (as it should: it's one group), to test the mods together and compare codes. It's good that such a cooperation also exists between different groups/sites, but it's very big effort and very time-consuming. (And thus some BWL modders can't afford the time or simply refuse this prodigal method of improving compatibility.) Thorough design, implementation and verification may require more sacrifices at the beginning, but it will make a mod more robust, with less compatibility risks with future mods as well. This is what I try to favour at BWL, and hopefully with more and more success (though much depends on the author's time, preferences and possibilities). If you see the (few) incompatibilities of BWL mods that were revealed after their release, most of them were caused by the problems of other mods. (G3 Fixpack to IA, UB to ToD, G3 Fixpack to Sheena etc.) Unfortunately, these problems were/are of general nature (so UB's and FP's problems will affect any other mod too which has the same dependency).

Unfortunately, I don't have the time, and -- after I've seen the lack of interest -- neither intention to provide more material about how you can improve the process. Let's just keep up everything in the way it has been going so far, i.e. everyone peacefully makes mods according to his or her preferences and knowledge, contacts other modders and fixes specific problems according to his or her preferences and knowledge, and so on. Don't get me wrong, I don't expect modders to know (or even to learn) the principles of my more systematic development approach -- modding is fun, and if it's a burden for someone, it shouldn't be done. On the other hand, I would welcome more respect and honesty from certain modders (i.e. not coming here to harass people such as Sikret after they've got a final answer; not spreading lies & unverifiable statements about mods they don't like for certain reasons, and so on). And, perhaps, more own thinking. Many modders just eat what a few others (such as "TP2 ninjas") say about compatibility and code, without actually trying to understand it. And, which is worse, they even defend it arrogantly.

Any further discussion of this -- let's use private messages. Let's not continue hijacking this TS topic. I think trufa's question has been answered.