Yet another new guy at IA Options

[(Ø=M)^42]

Hello everyone.
I've finally managed to outsmart my evil email spamfilter, and thus completed my registration here. I'm very interested in IA, but I'm not sure I'm fit for it yet. I've never modded bg more than using tutu, so I don't have any experience of improved encounters. When I fight mages, I throw on some Breach and other similar spells, send fighters on and hope I kill them. From what I've read, IA mages will be just a tidbit harder to kill, using SI:abjuration and massive protections. I'm mostly wondering if there's any point in trying if I'm not sufficiently skilled in tactical bg fighting. Reloading a few times to polish a way to do a battle is of course ok, but really banging my head on a wall would drain the fun quite fast.

Due to that concern, I've also tried to get some ideas to help me out. I'd consider playing on a quite easy difficulty setting, and possibly using multiplayer, to get more powerful characters like kensai, ranger/cleric, swashbuckler, sorcerer and so on. I do view myself as a skilled gamer, but I'm just not fully attuned to bg. Hmm.. getting messy. Well, what I'm asking for is mostly tips for a newbie at IA, stuff like suggested group setup, anything similar to smart moves like having lots of Ruby Rays memorized. Maybe even a suggestion for good starting quests.

Big hugs and love goes out to everyone for helping me get into IA <3

Øystein

Edit: For what it's worth, I used Marvin^42 on SP, since that forum didn't allow for one or more of the characters in this name

This post has been edited by (Ø=M)^42: Jun 21 2007, 05:49 PM

[Arkain]

Yup, AC is really irrelevant. I had Keldorn run around with -24 (cap ) and he was still frequently hit.

On the other hand I wouldn't suggest using a kensai. Kensais get insane bonuses to THAC0 and damage... but what for? You will still deal minimal damage, because enemies tend to have resistances (either naturally or via spells... or both ).
You don't really need two multiclassed clerics either. R/C and F/C have two classes both... but eventually the R/C will become more powerful, because he has more spells and the F/C doesn't get grand mastery (without mods, that is). So it would be somewhat pointless. You could go with another F/M for example.
The F/T isn't that useful either, imho. A thief isn't really necessary (I didn't have one in ToB anymore ) and the bonuses the F/T gets aren't too great. Think about it: many enemies are immune to backstab. All traps but time traps are quite useless. And even the mighty time trap isn't *that* useful later on. You could make this character a F/M/T, for example. This way you would still have thieving abilites, including UAI of course, and combine them with a F/M's tanking power. Well, you would level slower of course... but it might be worth it. Personally I've played with a F/M/C protagonist and she was one of my top killers and the most important healer (+ only cleric) even though it's a triple class (read: levels slower). Although one should keep in mind that the protagonist gets the most exp.

This post has been edited by Arkain: Jun 22 2007, 03:08 PM

[thetruth]

@(Ø=M)^42

It's a good party though I would never change the R/C with a pure Cleric or a Kensai.
As it is now you have only the F/I who can have Stoneskins (and the Sorcerer but he is not a tank).

Anyway it is still doable though you will have a harder time against the toughest enemies of the mod.


@Arkain

Yup, AC is really irrelevant. I had Keldorn run around with -24 (cap ) and he was still frequently hit.

Nope, good AC is not irrelevant at all.
It can make a big difference during the biggest part of the game.
Of course critical hits of enemies still get through but if you look at the THACO of most enemies modified by IA you will understand.

On the other hand I wouldn't suggest using a kensai. Kensais get insane bonuses to THAC0 and damage... but what for? You will still deal minimal damage, because enemies tend to have resistances (either naturally or via spells... or both ).

Kensais are a good choice for IA. Not only because they will not need much Cr.Strike like other fighters, but they can damage more than any other class.

Physical resistance means that a x% of your potential dmg will be resisted. The Kensai who has the biggest dmg bonus in many case will do much more damage/round than any other fighter.

You don't really need two multiclassed clerics either. R/C and F/C have two classes both... but eventually the R/C will become more powerful, because he has more spells and the F/C doesn't get grand mastery (without mods, that is). So it would be somewhat pointless. You could go with another F/M for example.

Yes for the second F/M.
But 2 multiclassed clerics pointless?

The Cleric HLAs are almost useless in IA. But a F/C will have GWWs, Critical Strike and Hardiness that can make a difference in the toughest battles of the mod.

[Arkain]

[...] What about before you get many HLAs? What's the THAC0 of your fighter-mage at level 21 and how many critical strikes does he have? Compare that to the kensai now...

You know, before you get many HLA's you're generally somewhere between 10 and 20 (levels, that is). Especially then your kensai doesn't have a THAC0 that's much better than that of any other fighter. The bonuses are small early on and grow every here and then. When the kensai finally reaches really high levels then he has a big bonus. But early on? +3 or +4. A berserker's rage gets the berserker +2. That's almost the same bonus. Then you get to the higher levels (+5/+6) and finally enter the epic levels, where you likely double the bonuses you had before.
Oh and at level 21 (in terms of exp -> 3250000) I have one Critical Strike - as you do - and a base THAC0 of 7 while you have 0 and -7 with your kensai bonus. At level 21 in terms of F(21)/M(something around 18 or 19) I have a lot of Critical Strikes and a base THAC0 of 0, why?
But when you want to play that game: how many rounds can your kensai last in melee against really tough foes with high damage and THAC0 without healing at level 21? Or: how many rounds doesn't he have a scratch?
I like to actually survive battles even if it takes 5 rounds more to win.

Yup, AC is really irrelevant. I had Keldorn run around with -24 (cap ) and he was still frequently hit.

Nope, good AC is not irrelevant at all.
It can make a big difference during the biggest part of the game.
Of course critical hits of enemies still get through but if you look at the THACO of most enemies modified by IA you will understand.

I admitted that already. I didn't take a look at all the different THAC0s though.
When talking about tanking with AC I think about something in the -20 region. If you ask me that's hard to reach at the beginning as you need "some" money to forge items of protections (for example). The problem is that I've likely which AC you have in mind.
Considering what you said by now I think it's a problem with my own experience: I played the first part (until you leave the Underdark) with "low" AC. Then almost at the end of the game I got really high AC to find out it isn't that useful anyway. Dunno how I would think if I had that AC avaible when it could have been useful . Hey, something to test in my next run...

On the other hand I wouldn't suggest using a kensai. Kensais get insane bonuses to THAC0 and damage... but what for? You will still deal minimal damage, because enemies tend to have resistances (either naturally or via spells... or both ).

Kensais are a good choice for IA. Not only because they will not need much Cr.Strike like other fighters, but they can damage more than any other class.

Physical resistance means that a x% of your potential dmg will be resisted. The Kensai who has the biggest dmg bonus in many case will do much more damage/round than any other fighter.

True. But that depends on the enemy you fight. But many of the golems you have fairly high resistances. A kensai at really high levels may have a bonus of +10 but it depends on the resistance of the enemy whether this is actually much or not. If you face one with 40% resistance to every sort of weapon you will still get 6 extra points of damage. Then you meet the mighty golem. Let's assume you use a weapon against which he (it? o.O) has "only" 75% resistance. Boom, 2.5 extra damage. Not that much. If you fight against a 90% resistance enemy it's only 1 extra damage.
A level 39 kensai would have... +13 to THAC0 and damage, right?. Let's say you use one of the most powerful (in terms of pure damage) weapons in the game like the Staff of the Ram +6. Let's furthermore assume you're a half orc with 23 strength gained by one of those funny belts. You would use the kai ability for maximum damage: 6 (W6 -> 6) + 12 (SotR) + 4 (SotR) + 11 (because of strength... I'm not sure whether it's correct or not) + 3 (grand mastery... again not sure) + 13 (kensai) = 49. Impressive.
Given that you will encounter enemies with somewhat "low" resistances this can be a difference. In the 40%/75%/90% case you deal 29.4/12.25/4.9 damage. But a normal fighter can deal the same amount of damage (minus 13). That's 21.6/9/3.6 damage. That's a bonus of
7.8/3.25/1.3 damage. Not so impressive anymore as the resistances to damage rise. And don't forget one of the most important facts: that's a high end kensai we're talking about. Add in that such weapons aren't that common in the beginning and it's even less of an advantage. Even if you meet that enemy with 40% early: you don't have a mega high bonus then. You might do 1 extra damage.
You are right - the kensai will in many cases do more damage per round than any other fighter - but not so much in the beginning where you would need it the most. And you're right again: X% will be resisted. The higher the X% the less the damage bonus the kensai has over the normal warrior. And don't forget that berserkers can gain +2 to THAC0 and damage (and various immunities) by raging. Early in the game that's almost as much as the kensai's bonuses. AND you can get that nice AC somehow. AND you can wear likely everything you want.
Hmm...

You don't really need two multiclassed clerics either. R/C and F/C have two classes both... but eventually the R/C will become more powerful, because he has more spells and the F/C doesn't get grand mastery (without mods, that is). So it would be somewhat pointless. You could go with another F/M for example.

Yes for the second F/M.
But 2 multiclassed clerics pointless?

The Cleric HLAs are almost useless in IA. But a F/C will have GWWs, Critical Strike and Hardiness that can make a difference in the toughest battles of the mod.

I didn't say that. Indeed - in my opinion it is somewhat pointless to have two F/C types with one being a R/C and the other being a F/C. But where did I say it's pointless to have two multiclassed clerics? It's about R/C and F/C. The R/C has more spells (most important: Iron Skins. He can actually fight more effective than the F/C because of that little protection). The fighter HLAs are the same. So the F/C got a clear disadvantage here. Don't forget that the cleric part levels at the same speed. A early advantage of the F/C would be the faster to level up the fighter part as he gains levels a bit faster. Later on this doesn't matter that much and is balanced by the R/C's druid spells anyway, imho. You could argue that two clerics make the whole buffing thing easier... but then when all you want tot do is buff why didn't you just take a pure cleric with you? On the other hand, does that really matter when you get to the HLAs? At this moment you usally have lots of slots to spend on several spells. You can even use Wondrous Recall if you don't have enough. Still: a huge advantage would be the high numbers of Greater Restorations avaible at the time.
To make a long story short... my intention was: F/C < R/C < F/M -> go for R/C + F/M

This post has been edited by Arkain: Jun 23 2007, 04:00 AM

[thetruth]

I admitted that already. I didn't take a look at all the different THAC0s though.
When talking about tanking with AC I think about something in the -20 region. If you ask me that's hard to reach at the beginning as you need "some" money to forge items of protections (for example). The problem is that I've likely which AC you have in mind.
Considering what you said by now I think it's a problem with my own experience: I played the first part (until you leave the Underdark) with "low" AC. Then almost at the end of the game I got really high AC to find out it isn't that useful anyway. Dunno how I would think if I had that AC avaible when it could have been useful . Hey, something to test in my next run...

No, I haven't even considered the items of IA when I talked about AC and neither the "wear magic rings+armor" component of EoU (with that AC would be even more important).

Example: you go to fight some Spiders. Your fighter with a Full Plate Mail + a good shield + a ring of prot. +1 + the girdle of Piercing would be very effective.

2nd example: You fight some Coin golems. The same fighter and equipment but with the girdle of Bluntness and a potion of Absorption.

Cleric buffs, potions of Mind focusing are other options as well in early game.

True. But that depends on the enemy you fight. But many of the golems you have fairly high resistances. A kensai at really high levels may have a bonus of +10 but it depends on the resistance of the enemy whether this is actually much or not. If you face one with 40% resistance to every sort of weapon you will still get 6 extra points of damage. Then you meet the mighty golem. Let's assume you use a weapon against which he (it? o.O) has "only" 75% resistance. Boom, 2.5 extra damage. Not that much. If you fight against a 90% resistance enemy it's only 1 extra damage.
A level 39 kensai would have... +13 to THAC0 and damage, right?. Let's say you use one of the most powerful (in terms of pure damage) weapons in the game like the Staff of the Ram +6. Let's furthermore assume you're a half orc with 23 strength gained by one of those funny belts. You would use the kai ability for maximum damage: 6 (W6 -> 6) + 12 (SotR) + 4 (SotR) + 11 (because of strength... I'm not sure whether it's correct or not) + 3 (grand mastery... again not sure) + 13 (kensai) = 49. Impressive.
Given that you will encounter enemies with somewhat "low" resistances this can be a difference. In the 40%/75%/90% case you deal 29.4/12.25/4.9 damage. But a normal fighter can deal the same amount of damage (minus 13). That's 21.6/9/3.6 damage. That's a bonus of
7.8/3.25/1.3 damage. Not so impressive anymore as the resistances to damage rise.

Lol. Arkain in the second case the Kensai's bonus is not impressive because the numbers are lower?

The kensai in both cases will have exactly the same additional x% bonus to damage compared to the fighter. Maybe the impressive in the second case is the resistance of the mighty golem

And don't forget one of the most important facts: that's a high end kensai we're talking about. Add in that such weapons aren't that common in the beginning and it's even less of an advantage. Even if you meet that enemy with 40% early: you don't have a mega high bonus then. You might do 1 extra damage.
You are right - the kensai will in many cases do more damage per round than any other fighter - but not so much in the beginning where you would need it the most. And you're right again: X% will be resisted. The higher the X% the less the damage bonus the kensai has over the normal warrior.

Again no. The additional x% bonus to damage of the Kensai compared to the damage of the fighter is exactly the same

And don't forget that berserkers can gain +2 to THAC0 and damage (and various immunities) by raging. Early in the game that's almost as much as the kensai's bonuses. AND you can get that nice AC somehow. AND you can wear likely everything you want.
Hmm...

And when did I say that the Kensai is better than the Berserker?
I just said that they are a good choice for IA and mentioned their advantages.

I didn't say that. Indeed - in my opinion it is somewhat pointless to have two F/C types with one being a R/C and the other being a F/C. But where did I say it's pointless to have two multiclassed clerics? It's about R/C and F/C. The R/C has more spells (most important: Iron Skins. He can actually fight more effective than the F/C because of that little protection). The fighter HLAs are the same. So the F/C got a clear disadvantage here. Don't forget that the cleric part levels at the same speed. A early advantage of the F/C would be the faster to level up the fighter part as he gains levels a bit faster. Later on this doesn't matter that much and is balanced by the R/C's druid spells anyway, imho. You could argue that two clerics make the whole buffing thing easier... but then when all you want tot do is buff why didn't you just take a pure cleric with you? On the other hand, does that really matter when you get to the HLAs? At this moment you usally have lots of slots to spend on several spells. You can even use Wondrous Recall if you don't have enough. Still: a huge advantage would be the high numbers of Greater Restorations avaible at the time.
To make a long story short... my intention was: F/C < R/C < F/M -> go for R/C + F/M

Okay we agree here. R/C is better than the F/C. I had just suggested the F/C for the place of the pure Cleric.
The fighter HLAs would made the F/C a much better fighter later (but always compared to the pure Cleric).

But leonidas has a point here. With the F/C late game would be easier but the pure Cleric would be more useful in early game.


(2 R/Cs and 4 F/Ms would be an even better party - especially later - but we need some variety )