cloak of non-detection Options

[kilolima2]

I read in the readme that the cloak of non-detection was removed from the game.

Is this because it never seemed to work in the original game?

Or to improve the tactical challenge?

cheers,

kilolima

[Toxeus]

Is this because it never seemed to work in the original game?

Little offtop: in my game it always worked perfectly, thief in this cloak cann't be detected at all. But it works only with thief's or ranger's hide, not with magic invisibility.

[thetruth]

I read in the readme that the cloak of non-detection was removed from the game.

Is this because it never seemed to work in the original game?

Or to improve the tactical challenge?

cheers,

kilolima

The cloak of Non-Detection worked in the original game as long as the character using it was under stealth (Thieves, Rangers and Monks).
But with 2 exceptions: it would make non-detectable anyone with invisibility from the Rings of Air Control and from the SotMagi as well.

It is the mage spell Non-Detection that doesn't work as intended.

The problem with the Non-Detection of the cloak is that it could be exploited, waiting for the protections of enemy Mages to run out. Enemies who can't see through invisibility cannot do anything in this case.

So I agree with Sikret's decision to remove the cloak from the game.

[Toxeus]

It is the mage spell Non-Detection that doesn't work as intended.

Was this bug fixed in IA?

[Sikret]

I didn't find any bug in Nondetection spell. It should work similar to the cloak (doesn't it?). I have just reduced the spell's duration dramatically to remove/modify its cheesiness.

[Toxeus]

IIRC, in vanilla game non-detection from spell did not protect thief from detection by True Sight. Have no game installed right now (neirher with no w/o IA), so i can not check this.

[devSin]

The problem is that non-detection blocks only the "detect invisibility" effect. In the game, only one or two of the low-level divination spells dispel invisibility this way (and non-detection will successfully block them, regardless of where the invisibility came from).

All of the higher level spells, however, also remove all illusionary protections and divination spell effects (they use the same effects that magic attack spells like Breach and Pierce Magic use). Non-detection doesn't block this, so any effects from these types of spells are automatically removed; since items don't contain school and type information, effects that were applied directly by the item won't be removed (the non-detection blocks any detect invisibility effects, and the remove protections effects don't find anything to dispel).

[thetruth]

I didn't find any bug in Nondetection spell. It should work similar to the cloak (doesn't it?).

I thought I had already told you about this.

The spell non-detection grants protection from Divination spells to characters under stealth (or rings of Air Control or the SotM) but ONLY for one time.

What I mean is that if enemy casts True Sight then my thief under the effects of the spell will not be detected in the first round but the spell gets "consumed" (you get a message "protection from Illusions removed") and in the second round the enemy will be able to detect him with his True Sight.

Of course against instant Divination spells like Detect Invisibility or Oracle the spell is effective, but not against True Sight/Seeing.
So you didn't have to change its duration either

Btw I just remembered that Jaheira's Harpers Pin grants the same Non Detection of the cloak and of course a thief with UAI can use it. Maybe you should remove that ability?
(OK guys no need to exploit that now )


EDIT: Ah devSin beat me to it for some seconds

This post has been edited by thetruth: May 16 2007, 04:54 PM

[Sikret]

The spell non-detection grants protection from Divination spells to characters under stealth (or rings of Air Control or the SotM) but ONLY for one time.

What I mean is that if enemy casts True Sight then my thief under the effects of the spell will not be detected in the first round but the spell gets "consumed" (you get a message "protection from Illusions removed") and in the second round the enemy will be able to detect him with his True Sight.

Ah, I see. So, the spell's duration doesn't matter all, eh?

I can fix this bug, but I'm not sure if it is worth the attempt. Perhaps, it's better to keep the spell as weak as possible (as it is now). It's a cheesy spell after all. What's your opinion?

[Toxeus]

I ask you to fix this bug Now this spell is absolutly pointless, and even fixed it will leave not so many opportunities for cheat with very short duration.

[thetruth]

I can fix this bug, but I'm not sure if it is worth the attempt. Perhaps, it's better to keep the spell as weak as possible (as it is now). It's a cheesy spell after all. What's your opinion?

First of all I don't think that you have to make it like the non-detection of the cloak.
When I said that it doesn't work as intended, I said it mainly because the description says that it makes the creature undetectable to "detect spells like Invisibility Purge". But at the same time these spells remove the protection and a second Inv.Purge spell could reveal the character before the duration of the spell expires.

I don't know either if it is worth the attempt to change it. But better to change its duration again to that of the original game.

[devSin]

Ah, I see. So, the spell's duration doesn't matter all, eh?

Yeah, it would still be worthless if it lasted the entire game. I believe some clerics in the default game do cast Invisibility Purge instead of True Seeing, so it would have been useful there, but it's not something that happened often enough to ever make memorizing non-detection worthwhile.

I can fix this bug, but I'm not sure if it is worth the attempt. Perhaps, it's better to keep the spell as weak as possible (as it is now). It's a cheesy spell after all. What's your opinion?

It's really tricky. The non-detection effect itself is hardcoded, so there's not a whole lot you can do without some ugly hackery (we don't touch this at all in the fixpack). You could change the items to always cast the appropriate spell (instead of applying the effects directly); this would make non-detection from any source always suck (at least it'd be consistent :) ), with the exception of hide in shadows, but I don't think there's much point to it.

I might suggest changing the type of non-detection to non-combat (13) from illusionary protections (it doesn't really seem like an illusionary protection to me), but then you'd get behavior where invisibility and other illusions will be dispelled while the non-detection remains (which may make it seem even more broken to players).

[Sikret]

I don't know either if it is worth the attempt to change it. But better to change its duration again to that of the original game.

I think the duration still matters, because with the long duration, a character can cast the spell and have the possibility to ignore the first true sight attempt for a long time. With the new duration, he should make use of it as soon as possible.

@devsin

I actually know a good way to fix the spell's bug, but as I said, I'm not willing to. The spell will become cheesy if fixed.

[devSin]

I actually know a good way to fix the spell's bug, but as I said, I'm not willing to. The spell will become cheesy if fixed.

How so? I'd assume using protection from spell for the named spells, but that's not really a fix (non-detection shouldn't protect against true seeing dispelling any illusions). The school and type of invisibility spells could be changed, which really would work, but then you end up with illegal spells (as far as canon AD&D goes). Neither of these really present as a satisfactory solution.

[Sikret]

I actually know a good way to fix the spell's bug, but as I said, I'm not willing to. The spell will become cheesy if fixed.

How so?

By adding successive nondetection effects with cumulative delay of 6 seconds for the duration of the spell (it's the same method some other spells such as True Sight refresh their effects in intervals of 6 seconds). The first nondetection effect will be the one already present in the spell. The second one will take effect after 6 seconds, the thrid one after 12 seconds and so on till the duration of the spell expires.

In this way the character protected by the spell will have one nondetection per round for the duration of the spell (as many rounds the spell's duration is). The character's stealth can still be dispelled if two divination spells come in the same round (with less than 6 seconds delay between them), but this is the best way the spell can be fixed.

This post has been edited by Sikret: May 17 2007, 10:30 PM

[devSin]

You'd have to change the spells' type so that True Seeing and similar wouldn't remove the delayed cast spell effects (along with the current non-detection and other effects), but yeah, I can see that as a workaround. I do agree that it's not exactly optimal (having continuos application of any spell like that -- where the effect isn't instantaneous like True Seeing or Find Traps -- is kludgy at best).

[Sikret]

Just for testing purposes, I fixed the nondetection spell and sent it to thetruth. Both of us tested it and the spell can be optimally fixed. Changing the spell's secondary type is enough to fix the spell. There is even no need to the delayed effects method. The spell grants nondetection against any number of divination spells during its duration. (So, even the problem I had predicted when two divination spells come immediately after each other doesn't occur.)

Nonetheless, we discussed the case and decided to do the fix the other way round. At least for now, our decision is to change the spell's description and make it match the spell's "current" situation rather than fixing the spell to match the description it has in the original game. We assume that the description was wrong (rather than the spell) to keep the spell as weak as possible. However, if the majority of players ask for fixing it the other way round (i.e. chaning the spell and make it match with the original description), I may reconsider in the future.

[Demivrgvs]

You mean Non-Detection could be made True Sight immune changing IllusionaryProtection to something like Non-combat or Specific Protection?

If that is the case, what about Non-detection granted by items?

By the way if the spell works as per original description it's not overpowerd at all...a dispel or remove magic will remove it and invisibility too. But the version granted by the cloak is powerful indeed cause dispel effects won't work against it.

This post has been edited by Demivrgvs: May 20 2007, 09:30 AM

[Sikret]

You mean Non-Detection could be made True Sight immune changing IllusionaryProtection to something like Non-combat or Specific Protection?

Yes, but note that it will still protect only those characters who are hidden in shadow (not those who are invisible through magic).

If that is the case, what about Non-detection granted by items?

Cloak of Nondetection (or any other item granting nondetection) works fine in the original game (i.e. grants nondetection to "hidden in shadow" characters). That's why we omitted the cloak from the game. It was a cheesy item exactly because it worked.

[Demivrgvs]

Well then it's exactly what i've done some time ago...i was wondering if there was a way to make the spell actually work even if the invisibility isn't the one granted by hide in shadows...as i suppose it's the way the spell works in PnP.

But with a good script maybe you can manage even the item Non-detection...the enemy could targets other party members first (the hidden char can remain hidden only if he does nothing)...or you can make him cast area damaging spell like Horrid Wilting if he can sense the presence of the hidden char for more than x rounds.

This post has been edited by Demivrgvs: May 20 2007, 09:46 AM