Compatibility with Refinements Options

[Demivrgvs]

Is Improved Anvil compatible with Refinements?

And i don't know if it helps but i noticed that there could be more incompatibilities than those listed in the readme:
-Smarter beholders from Tactics mod modify too the Elder orb
-Anvil's Elemental level and Chromatic Demon from Improved Battles
-Sahuagin City and Anvil's Prince
-G3 fix pack corrected scripts and Anvil's corrected scripts

Anyway...looking forward to V.4!!

[Sikret]

Thanks for the post, Demivrgvs!

Is Improved Anvil compatible with Refinements?

I don't know. I know nothing about the mentioned mod. (EDIT: I checked the mentioned mod's readme file. It's not compatible with Improved Anvil for conceptual reasons. Don't install the two mods together.)

And i don't know if it helps but i noticed that there could be more incompatibilities than those listed in the readme

The mentioned incompatible mods in the readme are those which may cause problems in your game regardless of the order of installation.

-Smarter beholders from Tactics mod modify too the Elder orb

Since you install IA after tactics, you will fight against the IA's elder orb and no problem will appear in the game (unless you have already encountered a concrete problem during the game. If so, I'll be thankful if you report it and I will add that component of Tactics mod to the list of incompatibilities.)

-Anvil's Elemental level and Chromatic Demon from Improved Battles

If all Improved Battles mod does to the Chromatic Demon is exactly what is mentioned in its readme, then it is compatible with IA.

-Sahuagin City and Anvil's Prince

I'm almost sure they are compatible.

G3 fix pack corrected scripts and Anvil's corrected scripts

Yes, as repeatedly mentioned before, G3 fixpack is not recommended (with or without IA).

looking forward to V.4!!

Me too! Thanks again!

This post has been edited by Sikret: Jan 26 2007, 01:09 AM

[Demivrgvs]

Well i think i'll make a run with all this mod then and see if there are problems...i'll let you know.

Refinements is a mod about high level abilities and i assure you that's a great one and you shouldn't miss it! If you wish you can find it at Spellhold Studios...

[Sikret]

Well i think i'll make a run with all this mod then and see if there are problems...i'll let you know.

Thank you. However, I definitely recommend that you wait for IA v4. If you start your game with IA v3, you will have to start a new game after updating the mod to the new version.

[Demivrgvs]

IA v4 is going to be released soon i suppose then! :-)

[Sikret]

Is Improved Anvil compatible with Refinements?

I checked the "Refinements" mod's readme and I'm sure that it's not compatible with Improved Anvil for conceptual reasons. Don't install them together.

[Demivrgvs]

? For conceptual reason? Would you explain please?

It would be a shame cause it's one of the best mods out there...

[Sikret]

Incompatibilities are either conceptual or technical (or both). I'll try to explain it with an example (rather than offering a definition):

Consider two hypothetical mods: Mod A and Mod B.

Both mods improve the same enemy. Mod A changes the creature's class to sorcerer and gives new spells to him with a new script. Mod B changes the same enemy to a wizardslayer with a new two handed sword. Now, these two mods are conceptually incompatible because they contain different concepts about the same enemy/event in the game. The incompatibility cannot be resolved by any amount of technical work over the two mods codes (unless one of them changes its concepts). The player needs to choose between the two concepts. If you install both mods, they may even work together, but the result will be absurd: A sorcerer with a two handed sword or a wizardslayer who casts mage spells!

In this concrete case, both mods (Refinements and Improved Anvil) emphasize in their readme files that they should be installed after all other mods. Both mods apply changes to the same game files in different ways which are not conceptually compatible and in short, both mods aim for a complete overhaul of the entire BG2 with revising many similar files (in different ways).

[Demivrgvs]

I only use Refinements for the revised HLA (Sorcerer and Monk ones especially)...if i don't install the others components is it still incompatible?

Sorry if bother but may i ask what files are modified by both mods? You didn't touched HLA,am i wrong?

[Caedwyr]

From doing a fair bit of work with the Refinement mod, I'm also curious which files are affected by both mods. I know that pretty much every single new ability had a new spell file written rather than overwriting an old one.

Or is the conceptual incompatibility the fact that IA scripting and AI does not take into account the new abilities provided by the HLAs of Refinements?

I guess another area that you could say there may be some conflict is with the armor revision component, since Refinements may not include the IA armor in its changes (I can't recall how the patching for that section works). Then again, this would mean that pretty much every mod that adds new items might be considered incompatible.

Are there certain components of Refinements which are incompatible or is it all of them? Would something like the Sword Angel kit be ok, or is that a no-go as well?

[Sikret]

Yesterday, I surveyed the "Refinements" mod's documentation, but didn't take any (written) note. So, I cannot address particular issues in detail now (and I am currently very busy with preparing IA v4 and cannot spare more time to check it again). I will just refer to some general points which I can recall now:

1- It was mentioned in the documentaiton that Refinements should be installed after all other mods (with two exceptions IIRC). Any mod which requires to be installed after all other mods is *surely* incompatible with IA, because IA also demands to be installed last.

2- It was also mentioned that the mod performs a complete overhaul of the game's scripts. Any mod which tampers with in-game scripts in such a large scale will be incompatible with IA.

3- Also, any mod which revises the in-game spell files (HLAs, innate abilities, spells, etc) is *probably* incompatible with IA depending on the nature of changes it applies to those files.

Also I don't know if the mod has a core component which is required for its other components or not. If it is so, then none of the components can be installed with IA.

As for the new kit, kits usually do not have any conflict with IA, but in this case, I'm not sure, because the kit may be accompanied with its own revisions of HLAs and other in-game files.

As I said, I don't have the time to dig into another mod's files and study them in detail. My recommendation is not to install Refinements (none of the components) with IA as the safest solution. If anyone wants to try some of its components with IA, he/she should do it on his/her own risk.

[hankiwi]

I played with IA and Refinements installed together ( Refinements installed AFTER IA), and i didn't get any problems. I stopped just before going to Suldanessalar though (got sick of my jester) so i don't know about the remaning part of the game, but it worked perfectly fine until then. Monsters were insanely strong, new items could be forged by Cromwell AND i had access to new HLAs (they are quite helpfull btw).
both mods are great and are somehow complementary. It would be a shame not to play with both.

[Sikret]

Welcome to BWL, hankiwi!

The fact that you did not notice any problem doesn't mean that no problem existed. No game crash and/or no obvious bugs don't mean that everything has been working as intended. You had not even installed IA after all other mods (despite the explicit statement in the readme) which means that you have not played IA in its full calibre. Yes, the item upgrade feature of IA has worked for you, but it's a small portion of the mod's content.

Please make sure to install IA v4 after all other mods if you decide to try it.

Cheers

[hankiwi]

thx! and IA is great btw!!! it's one of the main reason i started to play this game again!!

hmm... i was thinking something like that too, that i didn't use the mod at its full potential. But was there something else except battles becoming much more difficult and new items (basically...)?
I just can't see what i missed... tough monsters all regenerate at a maddening rate, Shangalar seems immune to sunray, Thorgal casts fire aura greater commands and can see my hidden thief (bastard...), Fiirkrag is invincible (but still vulnerable to cloudkill weareas Thorgal isn't )...

[The Bigg]

1- It was mentioned in the documentaiton that Refinements should be installed after all other mods (with two exceptions IIRC). Any mod which requires to be installed after all other mods is *surely* incompatible with IA, because IA also demands to be installed last.

If I may so, this is nonsense. Both Refinements and G3Tweaks (two random names) say that they must be installed last, but they are well compatible (except for the opposing armor tweaks, which are technically compatible but would have unexpected effects).

2- It was also mentioned that the mod performs a complete overhaul of the game's scripts. Any mod which tampers with in-game scripts in such a large scale will be incompatible with IA.

there are completely new scripts for some new summons, there is no editing of existing script.

3- Also, any mod which revises the in-game spell files (HLAs, innate abilities, spells, etc) is *probably* incompatible with IA depending on the nature of changes it applies to those files.

Existing files weren't edited (or not seriously so).

As for the new kit, kits usually do not have any conflict with IA, but in this case, I'm not sure, because the kit may be accompanied with its own revisions of HLAs and other in-game files.

Again, it doesn't edit existing files (or only in a minor way), only create new ones.

By taking a wild guess, the HLAs should be compatible *if* IA doesn't edit kits (HLAs adds spells, while IA adds items and edits scripts/creatures), the new kit would work, but have some logical problems (in terms of item restrictions), and the Armor revision component is incompatible (items must be listed and edited manually, and IA items aren't listed). The minor components (Robes & Imoen) are almost surely compatible, while the Shapeshift fix is compatible if and only if in IA there is no druid using any of the shapeshift forms.

This post has been edited by The Bigg: Jan 27 2007, 12:59 AM

[Sikret]

When a player completes the installation of his/her mods, only one of the installed mods is the one which is installed last. If two (or more) mods really require to be installed last, only one of them can be installed according to its requirement. The other ones cannot meet the requirement of being installed last.

If "Refinements" mod really requires to be installed last, then it is surely incompatible with IA. If it doesn't really require to be installed last, then the statement in its documentation needs to be revised.

[The Bigg]

If "Refinements" mod really requires to be installed last, then it is surely incompatible with IA. If it doesn't really require to be installed last, then the statement in its documentation needs to be revised.

It has been a long time since I looked at Refinements code, so I might be forgetting something; however:

• HLA revisions need to be late in the stack, not last. However, IIRC the only things that it really needs to be installed after are player kits and mods that add *spell scroll* items (and, in both cases, would cause minor glitches - if these could be acceptable to you, I can dig in the files and elaborate further). Another thing that could cause trouble is editing of 2da files, but I assume that IA does none.
• SwashImoen and the Monk robes are surely compatible (unless you edit the six minor mage robes via COPY). They require no specific installation order
• Shapefix is compatible, unless any of the druids of your mod use the shapeshifting ability and rely on the specific implementation, so you should probably clear this point with us . It doesn't require specific installation order.
• The Sword Angel and the Armor Revision are surely incompatible, as they need to be installed after mods that add player-usable items (which I'm sure IA does).

[Baronius]

I think it's just a question of inaccurate statements and about how individual modders interpret compatibility.

Both Refinements and G3Tweaks (two random names) say that they must be installed last, but they are well compatible (except for the opposing armor tweaks, which are technically compatible but would have unexpected effects).

For example, this is how I do *not* interpret compatibility. If something might have "unexpected effects", they can't be "well compatible".

Additionally, as Sikret said, two mods that say they must be installed last can't be compatible (in certain modders' dictionary: "can't be 100% compatible") unless their statements are based on assumptions. I guess that the statement "it must be installed last" is attached to mods occasionally just to ensure that it overwrites/modifies other mods' unknown (or future) files or modifications (so inside a file, e.g. if they write to the same file position i.e. same attribute of the resource). Or at least, many things seem to be based on assumptions and practical experience by certain modders in these days. The "theory vs. assumptions" discussion between NiGHTMARE and us reflected this.

Sorry for being a bit general (slightly off-topic) again, but this is what I can see between the viewpoint of two groups of active modders:
1. "Players reported no problem so far. Only a very few players who use that spell might encounter problems, and just theoretically. Additionally, the probability that a player encounters it is very small. So they're practically compatible, even if that spell is surely incorrect and causes problems in theory."
2. "They're well compatible, except for [this] and [that], which are technically compatible but would have unexpected effects."
3. "They are partially compatible, so we can recommend players to install both. Only [that] issue might cause problems."

Each problem is now substituted by a version that is agreed by several BWL modders:
1."Players reported no problem so far. However, if our theoretical proof is correct, then the incorrect spell will cause problems in practice, even if only for a few players. And Low probability * Many players = Some Players! Murphy: If it can happen, it will happen."
2. Something can't be "well compatible" if any unexpected (even if harmless) effects may arise. I want my mod to work "deterministically". There are enough random ShadowKeeper edits anyway, let's try to avoid the known problems at least.
3. "Partial compatibility is partial incompatibility. 'Half empty. Or half full?' The issue isn't unimportant, it must be emphasized seriously when talking about how the two mods work together."

Nonetheless, it's nice that The_Bigg informed everyone about possible compatibility issues. I believe that compatibility should be discussed both in mod and in component granularity (when applicable). So if there are two mods, one of them has more components, and one component is incompatible with the other mod, the two mods are definitely incompatible. (This is what certain modders call "partial compatibility".) When we say that two mods are incompatible, we state something like: "For technical, conceptual or other reasons, it's not possible to enjoy both mods quality and features in 100% without the risk of unwanted interaction or problems". Component granularity is another matter. (IA's readme details incompatibility of many mods on this level.) Back to the aforementioned example of two theoretical mods, "all components except component 12 of Mod A are compatible with Mod B". This is okay. Correct.

It shouldn't be expected from authors of complex mods that cover many features of the game that they check other works in component* granularity. On the other hand, civilized discussions (such as this one) are okay to share information to each other -- as long as participants can afford the time.

*Or in even smaller granularity. Such as "If you don't do [this] and [that] in the game, they will work perfectly, they will be compatible".

[The Bigg]

I tend to see the half full glass and am an Unix-style user / wannabe developer, so to me "Perfectly compatible, except for parts A and B, while if you do C you might expect D" is the correct form of "Incompatible, but parts A and B work well together, while with C it could happen D". Of course, this is just a semantics discussion, which I'm sure few people are interested in

[berelinde]

It is my understanding that IA makes scripting changes. In order to ensure that these changes take precedence over changes introduced by other mods, Sikret has requested that IA be installed last.