De Gods! What a learning curve! Options

[GreyArea]

After playing the mod for about a week and a bit, possibly more, I have come to the conclusion that this mod is the hardest I have ever played and really making me think. This is a very good thing as I enjoy a challenge, but some of the fights I just cannot win (mainly Druid Grove currently but I expect more to come like WH with Fiircragg and others like the Suni party at first when I go back to Ath.

This isn't party compo related for the toughness for me, it's me getting back into the game again after such a long time and not remembering what such and such spell does or the true uses of other spells that i sometimes see as 'poxy' or 'crap' were in reality they may be the best things since sliced bread.

So pretty much I am asking this:

Should I consider playing through on the un-modded game for a little bit to get my head around some tactics and such or just set the difficulty down to normal (I always run on Core Rules as it's the neutral middle ground difficulty IMHO) and see how I go? I really want to get the enjoyment out of this seemingly stable and exciting mod (yes, getting my ass handed to me for the Nth time in a row is fun, I learn from the enemies tactics and my mistakes). I also enjoy the idea of the new critters to bash my head against so that will also be fun to see coin golems and gem golems amongst others.

In the un-modded game I did have some trouble with certain locations, though that may of been due to low level party for the location, and I expect to get bogged down in them when I get to the enhanced versions. I am just going to hope tat i can get to a high enough level to be able to take what they dish out at me and manage to get the gear needed to beat them down.

Ok that got off topic a bit.

This pretty much boils down to thus:

Returning to BG@/ToB after a longish hiatus is it recommended to start up with the normal un-modded game and go from there and get the skills back up? Or possibly a less intense mod to warm up with before plunging into IA?

OR

Dive into IA and learn everything on the fly? (not everything, but advanced tactics for starters and proper party compo/spell usage etc....)

Thanks for your time reading these musing

[rbeverjr]

From what you describe, you are at the easiest stage of the game. If you are becoming frustrated and reloading a lot now, then it is probably best not to continue. If you really don't mind reloading many times and fighting the same battle over and over (something that I can't stand), then go ahead and persist - you will learn. Otherwise, I would suggest a game with the SCSII mod. After that, try to get an old Improved Anvil version - perhaps version 3. Once you've done that game, you can decide if you are ready to jump back to version 5.

I haven't had the hiatus that you have had and have played a little IA. I can do version 5 and without too many reloads (for most of SoA; not been to ToB), but sometimes it takes so much mental focus that I forget to have fun. (But I do have fun, more as my skills improve!) I find IA5 to be much harder than IA4.1 which was much harder than IA3. I don't recall IA3 much and never played a complete game of that mod, but the improved battles of IA4.1 are much harder than the SCSII battles which are themselves clearly more difficult than the unmodded game.

[Shaitan]

I were where you are now. Play the first chapter a few times and you'll be much better prepared to meet whatevet may come.

[GreyArea]

I hate to sound like a fool but what is SCSII? Were can I find it and all of that jazz? Cheers

[Raven]

Like Shaitan I also struggled with IA battles (even the easier ones) when I first started. This was back in earlier version of the mod, when the battles were not as challenging, yet I still found them difficult. There are many battles which are accessible at the beginning of the game which are not doable until much later, which is something I came to realise.

What is the problem with the Druid Grove? Is it duel with Faldorn? If yes who is in the battle for you?

[Sikret]

After playing the mod for about a week and a bit, possibly more, I have come to the conclusion that this mod is the hardest I have ever played and really making me think. This is a very good thing as I enjoy a challenge, but some of the fights I just cannot win (mainly Druid Grove currently but I expect more to come

The duel with Faldorn in Druid grove is not easy (depending on who is fighting with Faldorn). If you read my own walkthorugh, you will see that 3 of my total 9 reloads happened exactly during this particular battle. shadan (who is a good tactician) also won that battle after a number of reloads. So, it's not supposed to be an easy battle and you should not be disappointed of your skills.

Should I consider playing through on the un-modded game for a little bit to get my head around some tactics and such or just set the difficulty down to normal (I always run on Core Rules as it's the neutral middle ground difficulty IMHO) and see how I go?

Playing on an easier difficulty setting can be a good idea. Playing the unmodded game or other tactical mods will not help you much.

This pretty much boils down to thus:

Returning to BG@/ToB after a longish hiatus is it recommended to start up with the normal un-modded game and go from there and get the skills back up? Or possibly a less intense mod to warm up with before plunging into IA?

OR

Dive into IA and learn everything on the fly? (not everything, but advanced tactics for starters and proper party compo/spell usage etc....)

Yes, go for the second option. Continue playing IA (on an easier difficulty setting) and draw the learning curve.

I hate to sound like a fool but what is SCSII? Were can I find it and all of that jazz?

SCS2 is a tactical mod you can find in G3 site. But playing SCS2 will not help you learn how to win IA's battles, because the game's rules are much different when you play each of these two mods. For example, in IA, multiple SIs don't stack and SI:abjuration grants immunty to all abjuration spells, while in SCS2 neither of these rules apply. As another example, protection removal spells work much differently in these two mods; in SCS2 (unlike IA), spells such as Ruby Ray of Reversal can even be cast on invisible targets. In short, playing SCS2 may even lead to confusions for you, because it has very different rules compared to Improved Anvil.

If you want to learn useful tactics for IA, you will have to learn it while playing IA, because you need to learn helpful tactics which correspond with IA's rules.

[DavidW]

SCS2 is a tactical mod you can find in G3 site. But playing SCS2 will not help you learn how to win IA's battles, because the game's rules are much different when you play each of these two mods. For example, in IA, multiple SIs don't stack and SI:abjuration grants immunty to all abjuration spells, while in SCS2 neither of these rules apply. As another example, protection removal spells work much differently in these two mods; in SCS2 (unlike IA), spells such as Ruby Ray of Reversal can even be cast on invisible targets.

Agreed (just to make clear to everyone this isn't one of these infamous "modderz warz" we hear so much about ) And the vanilla game rules are different again. (Probably closer to SCS2 than IA, though Sikret can correct me if I'm wrong - IA is more interested in "revolutionising the game", SCS2 is deliberately more low-key.)

[Sikret]

It's hard to say which set of rules is closer to the vanilla game. Each of the two mods makes radical changes to the vanilla game's rules and atmosphere. But it's also worth noting that being closer to the vanilla game's rules is not a merit by itself. Each of us (modders) have applied the type of changes we preferred and thought of them as "improvements" to the vanilla game. It's upto the player to see which set of rules and which type of atmosphere he prefers.

Examples of IA's radical changes to the vanilla game's rules and atmosphere: Not allowing multiple spell immunties to stack with each other, replacing some of the game's spells with entirely new ones. Adding entirely new monsters to the game.

Examples of SCS2's radical changes to the vanilla game's rules and atmosphere: allowing Breach to affect liches and rakshasas, allowing Spell Turning to block Breach and changing Ruby Ray and similar spells to target and affect an area (rather than an individual) and consequently allowing them to affect invisible targets.

[GreyArea]

Mmm...just noticed something. Everyone seems to be siding with the Shadow Thieves in their runs. Is there any reason for this other than wanting to fight Vamps? Or is there a component installed with IA that makes vamps harder but nothing to do with the ST's?

I always have sided with Bhodi cos I find it more fun in the normal game and I have a very soft spot for Vamps (and sometimes I also have the Valen mod installed so it's the only way to get her also).

just wanted to know this before i make a decision on them (i am re-installing IA now on a fresh SoA/ToB install to go back at it)

[Raven]

Mmm...just noticed something. Everyone seems to be siding with the Shadow Thieves in their runs. Is there any reason for this other than wanting to fight Vamps? Or is there a component installed with IA that makes vamps harder but nothing to do with the ST's?

One of the battles involved in Aran Linvail's quests (the second one, in the Five Flagons Inn) has been improved by IA. Also at least one of the named vampires you have to fight in Bodhi's crypt. Clearly you'll miss out on that if you side with the vampires.

On the other hand, some of the shadow thieves you'd have to fight by siding with the vampires use IA scripts, making them more difficult too, although not to the same extent.

So I think it's really intended you side with the Shadow Thieves, at this stage at least.

[rbeverjr]

Examples of SCS2's radical changes to the vanilla game's rules and atmosphere: allowing Breach to affect liches and rakshasas, allowing Spell Turning to block Breach and changing Ruby Ray and similar spells to target and affect an area (rather than an individual) and consequently allowing them to affect invisible targets.

Are you sure that SCS2 allows area of effect Ruby Ray? I think it is the G3 tweak pack that allows Spell Strike to affect a small area - if you choose that option. I don't recall any mod doing the same with Ruby Ray (which may be due to my ignorance or faulty memory). If some mod I used did offer that option, I know that I didn't choose it. With SCS2, you can choose which options that you want to install. If you are interested in that mod, I suggest that you read the SCS2 mod's readme and make your own decision.

I do agree with Sikret that the best practice for Improved Anvil is playing Improved Anvil. If you are satisfied with your success (e.g. are having fun) with the game difficulty at normal or even easy, then that is the best way for you to improve yourself as an IA player. Conversely, if you still find that frustrating, then other tactical mods can help bring you up to speed somewhat by just forcing you to stay mentally focused, learn the spells, and learn some tactics (which sometimes may even work in IA).

Personally, I applaud both the SCS2 mod and particularly Improved Anvil. Hurrah, for programmers that give us such good products.

[DavidW]

Examples of SCS2's radical changes to the vanilla game's rules and atmosphere: allowing Breach to affect liches and rakshasas, allowing Spell Turning to block Breach and changing Ruby Ray and similar spells to target and affect an area (rather than an individual) and consequently allowing them to affect invisible targets.

Are you sure that SCS2 allows area of effect Ruby Ray? I think it is the G3 tweak pack that allows Spell Strike to affect a small area - if you choose that option. I don't recall any mod doing the same with Ruby Ray (which may be due to my ignorance or faulty memory). If some mod I used did offer that option, I know that I didn't choose it. With SCS2, you can choose which options that you want to install. If you are interested in that mod, I suggest that you read the SCS2 mod's readme and make your own decision.

No, it's SCS2; and yes, it's all anti-magic spells including RR (though excluding Breach).

[rbeverjr]

Examples of SCS2's radical changes to the vanilla game's rules and atmosphere: allowing Breach to affect liches and rakshasas, allowing Spell Turning to block Breach and changing Ruby Ray and similar spells to target and affect an area (rather than an individual) and consequently allowing them to affect invisible targets.

Are you sure that SCS2 allows area of effect Ruby Ray? I think it is the G3 tweak pack that allows Spell Strike to affect a small area - if you choose that option. I don't recall any mod doing the same with Ruby Ray (which may be due to my ignorance or faulty memory). If some mod I used did offer that option, I know that I didn't choose it. With SCS2, you can choose which options that you want to install. If you are interested in that mod, I suggest that you read the SCS2 mod's readme and make your own decision.

No, it's SCS2; and yes, it's all anti-magic spells including RR (though excluding Breach).

Alas, my ignorance is revealed again. I guess that reveals my tactics usually tend more to the breach-and-pound or area of effect blasting. Please correct me again if I am wrong, but isn't this spell tweak optional?

[Arkain]

Well, it is "of course" optional. Just as the option to change how Breach works is optional etc.. It's also a matter of personal preference, imho.

[rbeverjr]

I wanted to try out some mods that I figured probably were incompatible with IA5; so, I started an IA4.1 game. I was surprised and pleased with the level of difficulty. It's very obvious to me that I'm learning the IA system now. IA4 was the first full game of IA that I ever played, and I remember that I had great difficulty trudging through it. Great difficulty to me means often reloading more than twice to beat an encounter. Reloading even once = failure. Now, I am tromping right along in an IA4.1 game without much trouble.

In IA5, I definitely noticed an increase in difficulty. Having been playing IA4.1, I would say it is a significant increase in difficulty. Still, I am having an easier game with IA5 than my first game of IA. I haven't reloaded that often (but certainly more than Sikret). I have been saving the toughest battles for last - which is appropriate for best chance of no reload.

So, you can certainly progress on the learning curve. IIRC, I played about a half game of IA3, a game and half of IA4+, and now about half a game of IA5. I'm beginning to think that once I have played this game 10 times I will be really good at it. It's readily apparent that I have become a more tactical player. So, I encourage those that may find IA difficult to keep plugging away. It will become easier.