@ nicoper:

I wouldn't say the 6-sorcerer challenge wouldn't be boring and very hard, I just said it's possible if you start using your sorcerers as fighters whenever needed. Polymorph to Spider gives you 4 APR with any weapon, including a polearm. Tenser's transformation drops your THAC0 to 1, before other bonuses are applied. Giant Strength takes care of a spider's puny strength. Shocking Grasp takes care of the spider's claws since after attacking, the grasp is dispelled and normal weapon attributes are restored while still in spider form (4 base APR). Even the ancient dragon is probably doable if you polymorph 4 sorcerers to fighters after you draw the Elite Nishruu to target your PC. Because of protection to +1 and less weapons PC will be immune to all of nishruu's attacks while under PFMW and the nishruu wouldn't recognize the innate immunity and won't switch to another target.

A sorcerer can use any type of melee damage weapon. There is a good supply of both staves +4/+5 and daggers +4/+5, especially late in ToB. And for slashing damage there is Black Blade of Disaster, however combining it with a spidery form is very hard. Still, there are at least 4 scrolls of BBoD which should be used in Sendai's fight vs the Web Golems. There are also Energy blades which inflict Slashing damage with 9 APR.

Not all enemies are immune to level drain as well, some can be killed with that BBoD effect.

SPOILER!


No xp though.


@ chaser:

Always happy to see new players, seems you did some extensive testing. I watched a video of a chinese player petrifying Borinal's Amber golem. As I always say, no matter how well one thinks to know the game, there is always something new. I, for example, thought that all IA monsters are immune to petrify and other instakill effects. This is probably an oversight from Sikret. I had also forgotten about the archer's Called shot which reduces save vs spells. Yeah, this way + Chromatic Sphere any foe that isn't immune can be petrified.

I also used the Royal Elemental Staff with my Assassin - Fighter dual, however since Tenser's transformation prevents any spellcasting for the duration (including things like Hardiness and Critical Strike, those somehow are included as "spellcasting") I stopped using it in any fight but the last vs the Rakshasa Prince. Still, since your dual is the opposite (Kensai-Thief) I guess you don't have any Critical Strikes or Hardinesses to worry about

We all know that the 6-sorc party is very hard, but other parties seem too strong since some of us are looking for further challenge, like no arcane caster in the party or no fighter in the party, or 6 sorc party.

The Ancient Secret of Suldanesselar quest isn't that hard. It's simply highly unpredictable and that's why I wouldn't recommend it to anyone trying to pass a no-reload IA v6 challenge successfully. There are other tricks with Drowned Soul fight as well like: Stacking 6 or 8 of Mazzy Fentan's Invoke Courage abilities - last for 5 turns, each adds bonus of 1 to THAC0 and saves, cannot be dispelled by Dispel Specific Protections, use 3 Potions of Acid Resistance (not the spell) to protect PC from the Drowned Soul's acidic attack (won't be dispelled by Drowned Soul unlike the arcane spell ProAcid, and PC will heal somewhat with each hit he takes from the Drowned Soul). There is also a trick to quickly dispel the more bothersome Master of Mirrors by using a well-timed Chain Contingency with triple Khelben's Warding Whip on "nearest enemy" triggered on "hit"- use Larloch's minor drain on self to trigger the Chain Contingency exactly when needed, do remember that the 3*KWW must hit before enemy's starting buffs trigger, and keep a sufficiently short distance between the caster and the target (for some reason, KWW when shot from a CC has a very short range, less than half screen).

I've also done the hardest version of Spellhold, with a xp-capped party (there are certain open in the game infinite xp and gold exploits, even in the very beginning). Thing is that John has to be killed fast, if not, 6 more Asylum Scouts will arrive each subsequent round and your team will be overwhelmed. With a high-level remove magic plus Alacrity Jon indeed dies in 1 round, and btw - he has to, or you'll die.

@ chaser:


This is curious. On which levels do you dual your B/M and R/C here? As early as possible (I'd go with b9/m and r7/c) or do level up them a bit first? And what is the role of F/I? Why not to replace him with a pure warrior?

@ critto:
Yes,I use B9/M and R7/C.In a vargrant run,have only one mage is not sufficient,even cast improved haste is a big problem,not metion to breach enemy`s protection,so I choose FI.FI was weak in most of the SOA journal,he can only help breach enemies or tank them of buff the party.His first quantitive change is 5.1m exp,after gets HLA.Once reach 6.8m exp,he shines because of lv9 spell CCC and BBoD(BBoD gives him the same APR as other fighter).FI also has as many HLAs as other fighters,choose many CS and GWW but no hardness at all.

@ krell:
I believe that most IA players choose different party for fun,not for self-injury,so there should be a premise that you can finish the game first,at least in theory,otherwise it`s a waste of time.A six sorecers party can win most of the battle,but can hardly win EDE(A Chinese player used a sorcerer solo IA v5 and failed there),because of the insane AC and regeneration of RP.

There is another boss can be level drained——The supreme leader.Cast BBoD or the lv9 spell Energy Drain works well(need a large number of lv9 slots,maybe wish for rest).

@ chaser:

There is a big difference between an IA v5 sorcerer and v6 sorcerer, mainly because of the new spells, especially the powerful Monster Summoning V, VI and VII. Also, a solo of any kind except F/M will fail in v5 against the Rakshasa prince. I hardly was able to beat it even with a solo Blade, which is another kind of F/M, because of the poor THAC0 and lack of 9-lvl spells. However, a party of six sorcerers can defeat the Rakshasa prince, of that I'm positive, not to mention that you should also get Pasha Mahmoud as helper from the Planar Sphere extended quests. IA v6 sorcerers have also access to Foreknowledge, which buffs THAC0 and saves.

Didn't know that Supreme Leader can be lvl drained, good info.

Regarding your earlier info of the Harm spell, I don't think it works against enemies that are immune to magical damage (and most of them are).

@ krell:
I did a few test on antient dragon and supreme leader,harm takes affect on both of them.Because of my version of IA may have a little different from you,you can test it as well.

Some very interesting info in here, glad to see Called Shot isn't totally nerfed (I have noticed many monsters are immune to stat modification though).

As predicted, I have gotten bored with the lesser-used character run. I think the killer was noticing that Monks only topped out at 4 attacks per round (I thought it was 5 for some reason). And of course maxing out at 5 Thac0. I forget how crucial it is to have level 20 fighter Thac0 in this mod. Things like Spirit Spiders have something like -8 AC. Makes it difficult to ever hit anything with a cleric or druid or blade or monk.

My new idea is to try a small-party challenge. It looks as though 5-character parties have been successful in this mod, and I am pretty confident that it could be done with a 4-character party. So maybe I'll try 3 characters and see how far I can get. If things begin to look dire, perhaps I can rush to ToB and add Sarevok.

Don't go lower than 4 characters. I think there are some anti-soloing measures that are implemented that might prevent you from doing something. Not nice, perhaps, but it is what it is. Party of four should work well, however. I think nicoper played with one, he can probably comment further. Necromancer, Cernd, RB, Valygar - this combination pretty much owns the game. Not only perfect for less-than-six chars run-through, but also for experiments with other classes or party members.

Funny, I've never actually tried Valygar. He doesn't look that great on paper to me, at least compared to a Vagrant or Riskbreaker. I guess the AC and some of those spells add up though.

I'm not too worried about anti-solo measures; if I come across something like that, it's easy to find the relevant code and adjust as needed. Really the biggest anti-solo measure I think is the Improved Asylum, giving a party of 3 a very difficult choice to make as they level up.

I was thinking something like a Berserker Mage, a F/M/C, and one other character with the potential to PFMW. I assume battles will be a bit long and characters will be swarmed, so trying to refresh a stoneskin each round won't cut it.

You will never know it. For example, one of the so-called anti-solo measures is the Robe of Vecna. IF the item is randomized on Kaol (Samia's party, Windspear hills 2 lvl) and you don't pass a certain check point (or even several check points, don't know exactly) with flying colors (4 or more party members) you will never get it - Kaol simply won't drop the robe, and you won't find it at the other three possible locations SPOILER!
. Most so-called anti-solo measures are stuff like that, also include different scripts on powerful enemies - like for example if you face Orcus, Prince of the Undead with a solo character above 8 mil xp he will cast Purge Magic once every 4 rounds or so, dragons will also get to dispel high-level illusions by script and so on. However, I've tested a party with only a Necromancer protagonist (Lawful Good, not transferred from BG1, not edited) and a F/M/T from an IA v5 successful no-reload run (levels 40/40/40) and managed to reach the Ancient Dragon where I had to stop, since it was not actual 2-man team but rather a solo with the F/M/T. Thing is, the Necromancer LG protagonist seemed to disable all of Sikret's so called anti-solo implementations. So if you want to run a small party challenge, make it so with a Necro protagonist. And logically the other two should be Riskbreakers if you want to have any chance with the Prince that is.

Edit: About Valygar. He's a fine addition to any Core difficulty party. His improved equipment helps him stay alive, plus he gets the Green Leaves armor for additional +5 physical protection whenever needed. Thing is, on higher difficulty this isn't sufficient and he dies very fast. Also, he has fewer APR than a warrior type, which results in lesser damage in combat, which for a party of only 3 will be a great disadvantage.

Edit: Also critto is right about the multiclass mages, they are weak in v6. If you want fighter-mages, I guess you have to dualclass them, best from Kensai. Keep in mind, Kensai-mages cannot wear robes in IA v6, so keep one Berserker-Mage or even Necromancer protagonist. Another good reason for that is that Sikret implemented heavy in-game scripts and nasty stuff for any F/M type protagonists.

This post has been edited by Krell: Apr 21 2015, 06:09 PM

You should. He's a bit weak in the beginning, due to low HP. But he becomes powerful. Personalized items and special IA kit make him a great character. In a party with lesser amount of members his abilities will be of great assistance. Vagrants aren't the best option when it's not a protagonist, you'll miss out on a great amount of extra weaponry and items. It'll be just a decent fighter with high elemental resistance and few powerful summons. A solid choice, nonetheless, but not as optimal, in my opinion, for a 4-char play-through. And RBs are always a win.


Problem solved, then. If you know what to look for (checks for party members or xp amount), do it in advance, before starting the game.


F/M/C as the protagonist? Or simply take Necromancer as the protag and have an ultra-powerful full-time caster. You need someone to do that anyway, as you'll probably need to summon a lot and dispel the enemies' protections. Fighter-types would have to buff themselves and fight. I'd be careful though, mage multi-classes were powerful in IAv5 due to their ability to tank tough creatures (golems, etc.) for long periods of time, so this was nerfed in v6.

Yeah, the stuff that looks at XP is kind of annoying. As a fairly new player to the mod (I never knew v5), there were a lot of things I didn't do in the "right" order. I think one would know the "right" order after past version playthroughs. But for example, I fought

SPOILER!


...after doing every single other thing I could in the Underdark. And when I went to look through his script, it seems I triggered the "hard" version of him. Which was fine; my party was a bunch of super powerful kits and classes, so I didn't have much issue. But it was still annoying, because if my XP was "too high" for that enemy, then it means that some of the other battles and challenges I vanquished were at levels LOWER than expected. So it doesn't make much sense to me that some enemies will be beefed up purely because of the order I chose to tackle them.

I was considering doing the Berserker-Mage as a Necromancer (Shadowkeeper), to trigger those such quests. I don't think I could accomplish this without Immunity to Silence. And yeah, there's a bunch of enemies that can deal with PFMW in one way or another, but it's still super helpful. Maybe my third character should be an Assassin dualed to a Fighter... can get absurdly high physical and magical resistance and could tank quite a bit of this stuff without relying on refreshing spells.

Anyhow, really enjoy thinking this stuff out. I actually initially tried doing a Berserker dualed at 9 to Mage. I was able to get the Berserker levels back successfully, but quickly realized he wouldn't be able to handle some of the TOB tasks. It does really make things interesting though, to be able to pile upon one character all of that experience, weapons, items, etc. You could go to Spellhold at level 36 with +4 and +2 rings, fun stuff like that :-) But I don't think you could take down a Greater Elemental Golem, or the Supreme Leader, before things got out of control.

Still, it's cool to consider the diminishing returns of subsequent party members. That is, if your first party member is a "1.00", where that represents the strongest possible character, a party of six might look something like this:

1.00
0.60
0.50
0.40
0.30
0.20

So a party of 6 is only as strong as 3 of the strongest characters. Or a 3-character team may well be more than two-thirds as effective as a full team of six, if that makes sense.

@ blastermaster:
When party members less than 5,some important items wouldn`t appear,some big bosses will “rage”.Good luck···

I also consider an all-multi party,like FI,FM,CM,FD,RC.They are lesser-used,but more useful than a bard or monk or swaskbuckler.No wish for rest,no weapon grandmastery,no improved haste before 1.7m exp,no HLAs before 5m exp,no level 9 spell before 6.8m exp···Which is a real chanllenge.I wouldn`t try it myself,for I brought FI twice.Hope someone will be interested in it.

Hah, I didn't realize that Wish Rest only appeared for single class mages. Lack of Grandmastery is no big deal though, due to Belm for one character and perhaps Scarlet Ninja-to for the other if he has UAI.

I also spent some time experimenting to find the HLAs for each combination. R/C does not get Foreknowledge. F/M/T gets Alacrity, but F/M/C does not. F/M/T does not get Use Any Item. C/T does not get Use Any Item or Foreknowledge. It seems only RC duals get Foreknowledge.

On the plus side, a party of 3 multi-class characters can certainly hit 5M experience before Spellhold. Whether they *want* to is another question :-)

@ blastermaster:

Never rely on Wish-Rest for any strategy.

Lack of Grandmastery will hurt most whenever needed most - vs the toughest opponents that are immune to +3 and less weapons. Against them Scarlet and Belm score no hits, effectively decreasing your overall APR by 2.

I didn't know F/M/T gets Alacrity. Guess another oversight. No UAI is no surprise, after all multiclass F/T don't get it either.

If you're patient enough, you can get a level 18 - 39 Ranger-Cleric, who will have it all - even one Ranger HLA. You absolutely need high-level clerical buffs and high-level dispel magic in certain fights.

Multiclasses will also end up with fewer HLA compared to a single- or even dualclass.

Not having access to high-level arcane buffs (i.e. no single-class spellcaster) will be very bad in many spots (Remove Magic), but will hurt mostly against the Rakshasa Prince, he has a good chance of dispelling even a 36-lvl arcane buff.

Some comments:

My 4 char run was Necro protag, RB, valygar and Cernd
I encounterer very few (but some I did) tweaks compared to a 6 char party

On the run itself (I made a journal of it years ago on the private forum, here)

first I took a 6 char party before spellhold, main reasons for that:
- with only 4 chars, I feared I would miss many items before spellhold beacause of XP cap, just because some fights could not be added to the list because of xp dramatically increasing with just 4 chars
- If I postponed in chapter 6 some fights which are nice because hard but doable before spellhold, I would find them ridiculously easy in chapter 6

Party was reduced down from 6 to 4 members just after meeting Imoen (xp cap!)

More levels soon made party very powerful, even though some fights are very difficult (compared to a party with one more mage or one more fighter).

edit: forgot link would not work, if anyone interested I will copy/paste journal (in this thread or another)

This post has been edited by nicoper: Apr 23 2015, 05:19 PM

Very cool, I'd love to see it of course.

I am amidst the three-character run at the moment. I am a little worried that my berserker necromancer dual (HAX!) won't have the Thac0 to really compete in the endgame. Even in chapter 2/3, he whiffs a fair amount.

Still debating whether to do Spellhold above the cap or below. My Berserker/Necromancer will have FoA either way, my FMC will have the +3 club at least, and I'm sure I'll be able to find some +3 weapons for the thief who will dual sometime in the Underdark. The only items I'm really concerned about ensuring I get are Phosphorus, Vecna, and the necro amulet. Upgrading Vecna immediately before leaving for the Underdark (so I can hopefully postpone a certain someone) would obviously be an enormous help too. Even with a party of 3, I think I can do all of this and be well under the cap. I am currently at 750k experience and have done most of the vanilla stuff aside from strongholds and the base Unseeing Eye quest.

@ blastermaster:

Vecna has 4 different possible locations, if it ain't on Kaol or the unnamed Mage in the illithid compartment, then it's either on Layene or the Ancient Dragon, which you probably don't have the strength to fight yet. Probably same valid about Kaol and Alhoon. Also, I warned you earlier - if the robe is actually randomized on Kaol, you won't get it at all due to the so-called "anti-solo"measures. Cheating the robe in with a code will do you little good, Sikret implemented checks and such imported items tend to disappear soon enough.

It's strange you get so little xp from vanilla quests, I remember reaching 800+ per party member with a 5-man team from vanilla-only tasks.

Berserker-Necromancer dual (being illegitimate) may cause you in-game trouble, but moreover, you won't be able to equip such a character with items suitable for single class mages, nor will he be able to use the Amulet of Hades/Lord of the Underworld. Even if you give him UAI.

Phosphorous you will get, naturally, the ingredients are easy enough to come by.

One last thing - if you go to Spellhold below the cap for an Improved Asylum, then you won't stand a chance against the various beneficial challenges in chapter 4 and 5 (Book challenge, Librarian, Cat-o-nine-lives, Mithril Golem, Dracolich) and also the regular battles will be insanely hard with such a small and poorly equipped team.

Anyway, good luck.

Well,I`ve made a mistake that I didn`t realize a low level dm/rm can never dispel the buff of a higher level mage,so I have to re-examine the inquisitor.
After a few test,I can conclude that in most cases(in a no exploit run),if just for dispelling enemies,an inquisitor can be replaced by a high level cleric or an auramaster···

I also test a cleric-illusionist and a lathander dual to mage,they have a great potential,for the lv 5 cleric spell”champions strength”can be stacked(I ask another IA player to confirm that)!CI can use spell-trigger and chain-contingency 3*champions strength to boost the hit of other 2 members,he can also use self-polymorph,Tanser`s transformation and stack 6*champions strength to make himself a strong warrior,I guess the thac0 would be under -40···Well,really hope his apperance can make some poor thac0 character(maybe swashbuckler or some others) more useful.

When I was using my gimped 6-char party, the Inquisitor was actually the best character. Yes, a Ranger-Cleric can probably get you *most* of the dispelling power of the inquisitor, but I think the inquisitor will be a few levels ahead in ability at all times. Can be a big difference maker.

I put my three-character party on pause and decided to try an un-nerfed Fighter/Mage solo. That is, I removed all of the code that looks at party size and/or composition to determine rewards. So things like Spell Immunity scroll from a certain someone, etc. I also plan to let him choose Improved Alacrity once he reaches HLAs. I'm mostly just curious how far a character like this can go.

At the moment, I have 3.6M experience, so I am really looking to hit the 11.9M cap before heading to Spellhold. Getting level 6 spells was probably the biggest game-changer so far, as it allowed me to throw on PFMW and give myself enough time to deal sufficient damage in battles. I also used, for the first time in my BG career, Protection from Normal Missiles. It worked very well in the Slaver Ship, blocking arrows not only from the 4 archers but Captain Haegan's axes as well. He did melee me though.

I have Flail of Ages +3 and one +3 Morningstar. My current motivation is to forge Phosphorus +4 so I may tackle some challenges requiring such weapons. I need 2 permanency scrolls and one more +2 Morningstar to make this happen.

Quests of note that I plan to do next:
- Sphere
- Planar Prison
- Temple Ruins

At this point I think the biggest issue I will have is getting a scroll of Wish. I suspect many later battles will require many more copies of spells to be cast than I can memorize at once. Getting Wish will be the final enhancement to the character, and we will see how far he can advance from there.

Firkraag. Or any dragon fight. You're dead the moment that Greater Silence hits you, trust me. Even if you give your character immunity to silence via a code, it's just further cheat and it won't help you thanx to the further "modified" lower elemental resistance of dragons, which prevents you from raising it again once it has been lowered. In other words, you're gonna be fried no matter how many protection from fire spells and items you have. I could still be wrong, but doubtful. Anyway, you won't make it unless you implement some more code or whatever cheats.

You can get a scroll of Wish in the Illithid compartment of the temple sewers. It will do you little good though.

An IA v6 inquisitor (even Keldorn) is weak. Better take fewer party members and level them faster in order to have better dispel magic. Or take Cernd along.

You will also never make any real progress if you keep changing challenges. Yeah, they all seem impossible, but it seems to me you do give up too quickly...