Well, that party composition doesn't seem like a weak one or anything, it could probably even manage to run a successful Ironman insane no-reload. A Necro + 2 Riskbreakers by themselves are a force big enough to defeat any foe. For example an in-game NPC party (no pre-generated characters except for PC) would have one hell of a tough time in an Ironman insane run.

As for protection vs Imprisonment, carefully timing your Mass Invisibility casting with all your mages (and I think they all should have it, sorceress included) will protect your two Riskbreakers by making them invisible right after enemy's True Sight kicks in for the current round.

But it's an impressive run nonetheless, despite reloading and all, good job.

EDIT: As a side note, I just read the article on the 'Story of the Old One' battle. And despite the tactic seems sound, there is a much better and easier way to win that fight, even without relying on the Old One at all. Surely, he will steal a kill or even two with his Improved Disrupt Undead, but even if he wasn't there, a solo Necro can still defeat the3 Grave Liches in 100 out of 100 attempts. 19 out of 20 is too risky for an Ironman run IMHO.

This post has been edited by Krell: Apr 23 2013, 03:03 PM

Did not know this one, good pick , I could not have done this because I did not memorize nor pick Mass Invisibility for any of my mages/sorc... my bad, will look at this spell with renewed eyes now.

Sidenote, what is an "ironman" insane no-reload (insane no-reload I understand, confess I could not achieve that btw, but ironman???)

Mistype."Ironman"="no-reload". So it's either no-reload insane run, or Ironman insane run.

It's actually quite possible, but I do not to claim to play the mod as the designer 'intended to' wnatever that means. Suffice to say, I'm not cheating. Here's a small example on that same Story of the Old Ones fight in the Planar Sphere's Necro quests:

Contingency and Chain Contingency prepared a day earlier so that they may be used again during that fight. 4 spells in there include GoI, Prot from Magic Energy, Spell Turning, Foreknowledge.

Necro is lvl 31 or higher.

Cast Improved Alacrity right when the Old One finishes his story. Cheesy? Maybe, but not cheating. Otherwise I may call cheating your own Contingency and Chain Contingency - how did you know in advance which spells to prepare in your CC if we're playing by the 'blind to future encounters' rule?

Drink an Invisibility potion right when the fight starts. It would be possible, since Alacrity casting takes almost a round. Since the three Grave Liches are not scripted that smartly, they will start all at once casting True Sight. Wasted first round for them, in which you have enough time to erect protections (Spell Immunity: Abjuration, Prot Electricity - not that I've seen them using any electricity-based spells), haste PC (or improved haste, whatever) and dispel all of enemy's spell and other protections via six Ruby Rays, followed by a couple of Remove Magic.
Forcing the enemies to waste their second round is very simple - stand in their midst while refreshing Alacrity. They will all cast ProMW.
I don't think there's any need to proceed any further? Powerful summons like elite trolls, greater yuantis (optional) or planetars take care of the rest, provided your mage keeps dispelling enemy protections, and if PC is lvl 31+, that would be possible. I know the enemy uses RRR to remove at least Spell Turning, then would fire Larloch's Interrupter, but if you allow that from this point, then you're doing something wrong. The necro can quickly run away from enemy's sight and continue casting Remove Magicks from there. If that's cheesy by your standards, cast a Farsight spell first to light the battlefield. In any case, casting Bigby's Crushing Hand on a Grave Lich seems like a wasted spell, with their great HP and regeneration rate.

How on hell can you achieve level 31+ when fighting old ones? I usually have level 20-25 for this fight, level 31 is reached (very) late ToB. Even finishing WK before old one, think I would not reach those levels (with a party of 5 or 6 members that is)

Just a matter of taste, but I think there is also a lot of fun to be had in this fight at level 22-25 (levels I usually fight it), and there are many good challenges and fun to be had running the mod as it is intended (difficulty level, xp level,...), with simple things, here are a couple of ideas:
- win all following fight before spellhold while not breaking xp cap; troll mound, umar, guarded compound in temple district (apart corridor of course), samia and party, firkraag and teshal
- after exiting underdark (and having entered spellhold at xp cap of course) do all city quest (including twisted rune, orcus, old one, zallanora, limak,....) without party going in other areas
- fight pirates in hideout under sea bounty without improved haste (level 10-11)
- during fight with old one manage to have your Necro finish each three graves (with help of old one of course, but death blow has to be Necro)
- try fight with demons in Kuo-toa dungeon in underdark with a party of 4 mages (like mine , hellish, but very fun, and even if reload, this is a gun fight, does not last a RL long time

Krell has probably played the leaked and beta copy of IA v6 some people had stolen and released on other sites. We had warned everyone that that copy of the mod is not genuine and is an incomplete beta and subject to revisions.

Besides, knowing what liches do at each step shows he had reloaded the game a few times to learn the liches' reactions to certain things. This is not a "no reload" win. Trying a battle several times to find a winning tactics (even a cheesy one) is ok, but then calling it a "no reload" win is just inaccurate (to say the least).

True, I haven't yet had the time to try the original mod. Still, in the described 'Old one' fight I don't see anything that shouldn't work in the original mod as well. Of course, if I am mistaken, correct me and I will try to find the time to replay the mod and see for myself.

As for a successful no-reload tactic, one cannot be developed without testing extensively each battle first - and with different party compositions, testing and no-reload winning tactic differ. You cannot just stroll into a group of v6 modified Ultra Golems and expect to win without knowing their abilities and how to counteract them first, right? Developing a no-reload successful tactic during the first encounter with any IA enemy group is maybe possible only for the weaker enemies.

nicoper , for you it's fun to play each battle with a handicap - very nice, I admire that. However, for me it takes the fun out of the game when I have to reload a couple of times during a battle which I already fought many times - just because luck's not with me. That's why I aim to make the luck factor in all fights a nonexistent one.

Just as a side note, I will start a new game today, with the original mod installed at all, just being curious if the xp, gold and item exploits that were available in the beta version are still there. Even if they aren't, it's not extremely hard to bring the Necro to 31 lvl of experience, for that occasionally three or even four party members may have to be temporarily killed of course

Edit: BTW I have a question about the mod: Is there a way to turn the PC necro to evil alignment after completing the entire Extended Mage Stronghold, but before the fight with Jon on the Tree of Life?

This post has been edited by Krell: Apr 24 2013, 11:48 AM

the "luck factor" is debatable to say the least , I would not say "luck" but more something like the turning of tide in a fight. Confess I love fights where at some moments you feel victory close, then some turn of events (or name it luck, no matter ) makes situation desperate then in the end party wins with maybe half of its member down, drained of spells and hp, that's what I love .
It is just a matter of personnal feeling, I don't feel out of fun if I have to sometimes (unexpectedly most often) to reload (After initial run, I usually reload 10 to 20 times for all game, EDE included), I feel having a real challenge. It keeps some adrenalin on. I would (again just personnal feeling, do not interpret as a judgement ) feel frustrated to repeat the same 100% winning tactic at every fight, especially if I achieve it because my party is too high level. Where would be the point to replay or change party composition in that case? (again just my personnal feeling)


You are bringing back to life "delicate matters"


Out of curiosity why would you do that?

Let us translate this to standard English:

You try and reload a battle 20 times to find out enemy abilities and tactics. Then you finally find a winning tactics at your 21st try. So far, no problem.

BUT, then you decide to say nothing about your 20 failed attempts and call your successful try a "no reload" win!



Yes, this is what Nicoper said too (that it is not possible to do some of the battles with no reload, except probably for the weaker enemies).

Not quite. I first run a multiple-reload test game(s) of all improved battles in the game. Then I start a new game, in which it's do-or-die in every battle - if I fail and PC dies, I start anew. Of course, I don't say that every new game can be completed successfully in a no-reload, because there are some items which are crucial for certain tactics - like the Robe of Vecna for example. If that is in the posession of Layene or the Ancient Dragon, then the no-reload probably won't work.



Wanna try to obtain both the Robe of Eloquence (from The Four mod) and all the bonuses from the Expanded Mage Stronghold (RVE, Cloak of the Old One, Carmine Ioun Stone, other goodies).

EDIT: Tried the original version 6 mod, downloaded from this site. The first xp + gold exploit works. Didn't test the other yet. The tactic in Old One's fight which I described above also works like charm.

This post has been edited by Krell: Apr 25 2013, 05:41 AM

If you find any xp or gold exploit which still works, report it, but do NOT use it. We will appreciate exploit reports, but if a player uses them in practice, we do not give any value or weight to his victories or achievements in the game.

Well, I gave my word to reveal no exploit which I've been told about. I didn't find them myself, you see. If the guy that told me about these allows me to report them, I will.

I may only report the 'gem drinking' money exploit (or even cheat) where you drink a potion, swap it with a 1-value gem, repeat and get 65565 gems worth ton of money. Doesn't work for the special gems added by the mod like Golden Star Garnets. By the way, that exploit works even when casting scrolls while being Silenced or by non-arcane characters.

If that's ok with you, I am even thinking of starting a new insane-difficulty game with no pre-generated NPCs and uploading some of the more interesting fights as videos in YouTube.

Well, as I said, if you use exploits, your victories and achievements in the game do not mean anything to us. We welcome game journals and battle reports in this forum only from players who do not use any sort of exploits in the game.

@krell:
Hi, once again, I don't mind if you enjoy your game playing it as you do (and why should I mind, after all it is a game and we are all grown up adults for a vast majority I presume ), but maybe you should start a specific thread with your hints, clues and so because it could be very confusing for people who read this thread to have views from two completly different ways to handle IA (my journal and comments are irrelevant if someone plays as you do, same can be said if someone tries the game as I did and refers to your advices).
That said, it's all right with me to share with you different game experience, I welcome your comments and don't want at all to cast you out of this thread .

Side note, you mention things (gold/xp exploits for example) that are clearly not the mod designer (Sikret) cup of tea and add you won't reveal them. It could be (misleadingly I am sure it is not your intent ) taken as some kind of provocation.

I don't mind people using them, I don't mind exploit existing in the game. Either you think they should be removed and ask Sikret for that (will increase insane no-reload challenge ) or you say they exist and where for those who like them and ask Sikret to leave them as they are. Confess I don't see the point of saying "those exploits exist but I won't say where" (If only because if I was a player who wants to know about those, I would just be frustrated you say they exist but don't reveal them).

Question about old one fight; I had at first a nightmarish experience because I was showered with stellar gravestone, PW stun. Once I found out a way to handle it (not what you would qualify as a no-reload, but let's say that now I win it without reload 80% (which is all right for me ) one of my main objective is to finish each grave lich as fast as possible one after the other. As I understood your clues, it seems fight lasts a long for your Necro. Even with a Necro titanic spellbook, how do you manage that?
Another interrogation is about your level 7 and level 8 spell pick (I had dilemna at the time balancing number of RRoR, spell turning and DU ), could be interesting to compare if we have some common or very different picks (according to our respective ways to play )
(I usually opt for 6 RRoR and 3 ST at level 7, Foreknowledge, Prot from energy, 3 pierce shiel and 2 MS VI, of course I am much lower level so less slots than you)

Yeah, I could, that's why asked for Sikret's approval to actually post links to YouTube videos here, however I saw that's not welcome and I respect that. My posts above won't even contain that much info (about an xp exploit still present) if actually Sikret didn't state that in the original mod it's much more different than in the Beta version I had so far. Since much more people have played that Beta version instead of the original v6 so far, I just wanted to state clearly that there aren't that many differences so far, at least about certain exploits or tactics.




I don't mind people using them, I don't mind exploit existing in the game. Emphasizing on that sentence. I personally think it's better if they're in the game. It's up to anybody's choice whether to use them or not. I personally don't think they should be closed for good - and I know that once info about them is in Sikret's hands, they will be. Actually it's not me that found about these, there's a guy in Facebook that gave me the info. He even said there are more exploits available later in the game.



You're just giving those liches too much time to act. The fight for my Necro isn't very short either, but I doubt it's longer than 15 rounds, I am even thinking it ends in less than 10 - have to check again on that. Even with your Remove Magic not working against the liches and a bit fewer spell slots , you still can duplicate that fight. 7th level slots should be six RRR and the remaining Spell Turning, Pierce Shield may be good but I prefer 3 Pierce Magic instead (shorter casting time), or maybe both combined just in case. Elite Trolls are actually more resilient to triple ADHW CC than a Planetar.

Of course you'll be showered with Stellar Gravestones if you're not running ProFire + Stoneskin. And of course you won't be able to protect these from being Breached if you're running Spell Immunity Necromancy instead of Abjuration. And of course you won't be able to cast spells if you're not running Spell Turning for protection vs Larloch's Interrupter. Foreknowledge is usually loaded in my CC, I don't need any more, but still those 8-lvl slots are abundant. Protection from Energy also comes from that CC. Of course, your tactic makes your character extremely vulnerable to multiple Breaches, that's why you have to keep spare protection spells, while in my case I have much more free slots. Still, be it 2 Elite Trolls or 3 doesn't really matter that much - you can always enlist the aid of a Greater Djinni, Noble Spider or Skeleton Lord. Number of trolls on the battlefield matters only if you're able to dispel enemy's PFMW each round.
My own picks are 6 RRR, 4 Spell Turning (one additional in CC), and the other 2 are optional. 2 Disrupt Undead will do very little damage to any Grave Lich anyway, so if you have extra slots, invest in more Spell Turning. Then again, I never used more than 2 Spell Turnings in that fight, but that's for 36 lvl Necromancer - my guess is that a 25th lvl would need at least 5. Lvl 8 - 6 Monster Summoning VI - other are optional. Actually I never managed to summon more than 4 trolls for the entire fight, so maybe 6 is overdoing it a bit. Lvl 6 - 1 GoI (never cast it), 1 Improved Haste (wasted - better original haste for a 25 lvl mage), 4-6 ProMW (never used more than 4), 3 Pierce Magic (that's for a 25 lvl mage).

You may also win another round if you take off your Amulet of Hades for a sec, this way the liches will target your mage with Grave Silence all at once. Re-equip it to negate that.

PW: Stun... No lich would attempt that if your Necro is under Spell Turning, or even if that's temporarily removed by RRR, PC should still have enough hit points (above 90). You should equip PC with all available hp-increasing items like the Green (or Indigo) Ioun Stone and the Girdle of Lordly Might, and avoid taking any damage. Another counter for that should be a Free Action potion - I don't think that potion effect is removed by Breach, will check again on that. Of course, it's removed by Remove Magic.

Edit: Forgot to mention another way to increase your HP total significantly. Memorize 7+ Vampiric Touch spells (the more you can, the better). Drop an item on the ground and with active Improved Alacrity, cast multiple Vampiric Touches on that item. This will give you enormous hp boost. But I think that VT effect is dispellable, so again, you have to be under SI:Abjuration for this to work.

This post has been edited by Krell: Apr 25 2013, 11:03 AM

The battle with Grave liches is not designed for a level 36 (or even level 31) necromancer. So, winning that fight with such a high level protagonist is a trivial achievement and not really worth of being proud of.

I also don't care if someone uses xp or gold exploits in his private game sessions, but if those exploits are used to make ridiculously high level characters and then the reports appear in the forum to "show off" and "glorify", then I do care and won't allow those type of reports here in this forum.

I usually do not cast MS VI, free action protects from PW stun (IIRC removed by breach), problem with limit of 90hp is that one turn of tide in fight and Necro can take damage from Stellar, ADHW, trigger 3*CL...and be brought under 90 hp limit.

Last times (5) I was fighting with old one I usually have a level 20-21 Necro here, so another universe than a level 36 one...(btw level 36 Necro I just achieved once with a 4 member party, and it was just before EDE)

In fact I am very interested if you have patience to write a detailled account of your fight because I am sure missing something here and I confess that since you said it is possible for Necro to win this fight without help from the old ones, I would like to try it (even killing 2 graves with Necro alone I cannot achieve I confess , my best has been killing one grave without any help from old one or having death blow on all three, so very far from your achievement ) you teased me into this challenge!

PLEEAAASE Mr Krell!

Now I didn't say that a 20-21 lvl mage can kill even one Grave lich, following my tactic - rather all of them will be slain by the Old One.

I can actually do better than giving a detailed account on that fight - I may simply post a link to a video (when I make one in the next couple of days). Maybe even two videos - one for a lvl 36 mage and one for a lvl 25 mage. I think it would be far better than explaining step by step because even this way, I may still miss something small yet important.

Of course, I don't want to offend Sikret (his forum after all) so I may just post the 25-lvl mage video instead.

@Krell
Ok, let's wait for that, I confess that (since WISH does not work) I cannot understand how a Necro can kill more than one grave lich alone here (be it a 36th lvl Necro), asked about it I would claim it is not possible without heavy blatant cheese (My argument would be how does your Necro and summons inflict enough damages?)

PS: can you PM me the links of the video you spoke earlier to Sikret? (I won't post it of course, even if it is a lvl 36 Necro, I would like to see it)

No problem, but I still have to make one Will take some time, just be patient.

By the way, I don't suppose that if the Old One dies you'll get the rest of the Expanded Mage Stronghold quests? Never did I let him die, so I dunno. But will make maybe even a 25-th mage video of that fight, when it's 3 on 1 - all grave liches vs PC 25lvl necro, with no Old One in the way - will let them kill the Old One so that he won't mess things up.